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#1756294 - 09/21/11 12:54 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
In the sense that Mark is talking about, Mozart cheated a lot on his early compositions, which were pretty much written by his daddy or mostly copied from other composers.
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#1756301 - 09/21/11 01:23 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I can only speak for myself - my parent never, ever did my homework, in whole or part. Even as far back as phonics lessons in kinder and first grade, my mother would do an example and show the learning process for the skill, then have me demonstrate on the homework problems. If she had to 'do one' to show me better, she'd pick a problem and either modify part of it or use an entirely off-sheet example to show me again, before having me try. Doing part of my homework and claiming it was me didn't a) teach me the basic objective of the assignment (which is the only reason FOR homework) and b) was dishonest, passing a skill off as mine that I didn't have.

So yeah, I work at being consistent and have as long as I can remember. As a homeschooling mom I am really sensitive to this, because it IS easy to 'over help' and end up doing an assignment rather than teaching, but it is entirely avoidable. And yes, I consider a parent doing an assignment for a kid cheating. As I said, I'm black and white like that.


But enough with the hypotheticals, I'm pretty sure I answered the question and then tromped on the horse carcass a few times, so I'm out of this one smile
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Yamaha CLP320

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#1756302 - 09/21/11 01:25 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
....I'm pretty sure I answered the question and then tromped on the horse carcass a few times, so I'm out of this one smile

Don't feel that you have to stick to that. grin
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"Everything I say is my opinion, including the facts." :-)

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#1756310 - 09/21/11 01:58 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Kreisler]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It is the system that give people opportunity to lie. I agree that people should not lie. Unfortunately, most people will lie. If the system is designed in a way so that no opportunity for people to lie, we will not have this problem.


Having designed cheat-proof systems for classroom education, I can say that there are a few obstacles.

1) It's extremely difficult. Basically, preventing people from cheating requires constant observation. Especially in the age of smart phones, this is incredibly difficult. It took three of us to effectively manage a class of 75 people during in-class assignments and exams.

2) It's demoralizing. These systems send a clear message: "We do not trust you." It's a horrible message to send to those who really do approach their lives with integrity. It can also be a self-fulfilling prophecy - expect someone to cheat, and they will.

3) It acknowledges that cheating is part of the culture. And once cheating is part of the regular culture, people start to use that as justification for cheating. We've actually seen that in this thread: "Everyone else is, so I have to in order to not look stupid."

4) Even in auditions, it's very difficult. Let's say two pianists play Beethoven Op. 10#2 at roughly the same level of proficiency. It's entirely possible that for Pianist #1, this is the first Beethoven sonata he's learned, and he's been playing it for two years. He can't sight-read at all, doesn't have a disciplined practice schedule, has a weak theory background, and his social skills are lacking. But for Pianist #2, this is his 3rd Beethoven sonata, he has a well-rounded repertoire, good theory skills, is self-directed when it comes to practicing, and he's a joy to work with. He practices more efficiently, and is able to accomplish in 2 hours what the other accomplishes in 3.

But the audition committee only hears Beethoven Op. 10/2 on one day. It's entirely possible that Pianist #1 had a good night's sleep and played well. He also had a new suit and looked very "put together." But Pianist #2 had a bad flight, decided to skip ironing his clothes to grab an extra 30 minutes of sleep because he didn't get in until 2am, and his audition time was right after lunch.

So yes, auditions are "honest" in that a person can't fake good technique or musicianship, but auditions paint a very incomplete picture of a person's development. And when you're thinking about a career in music, how well you play is only a part of what will make you successful.


You do not know how to write good questions then. If you write questions requiring a thorough understanding of a certain subject matter, it is hard to cheat. Even an open book exam will become very difficult.

You need only one person to ensure none of the students work together. There are several ways to reduce the chance for them to work together, (1)increase the numbers of questions so that everybody will under pressure to finish their test. Therefore, the good students have no time to help others. (2) Use exactly the same questions, but scramble the numbers, so that there will be less chance that the students who sit next to each other will have the same sequence of questions. It is hard to work together if the sequence of the questions is not the same.

Cheating can only become a culture if the schools or the professors do not have a system to prevent them from doing so. It is human nature to not working hard if they do not have to. If the schools or the professors are strict concerning this cheating thing, no student will dare to do this. Little kids are afraid of cheating in general, but teenagers will most likely cheat if they have the opportunity to do so.

About the audition, it is very unlikely people who are lacking in all aspects of music like what you described will be able to beat your Pianist No.2 who has well rounded musical knowledge.

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#1756314 - 09/21/11 02:10 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Kreisler: It just so happens that I was discussing the audition system with a violinist friend last night (while eating a chocolate souffle! YUMMY! :D)

Here's part of the discussion that went on:

Her: Auditions can be unfair. I already knew the committee and they just hired me because they knew me!
Me: Yes, but you deserved to be there, you're awesome (truly she is)...
Her: Yes, but it remains unfair to everyone. Plus if they didn't know me (ergo I wasn't with them for a couple of years), I wold probably be spending my time studying thus I would be better. Bottom line is that the audition will NOT get you the best performer!
Me: Well yes of course! But a professional needs to have many more skills than just be a great performer and for all those years you passed the audition. They knew who you were and they liked working with you, apart from knowing that you ARE great.
Her: Still they have no way of knowing if other people were great with the violin but also great working with them! They missed the opportunity not because they missed any skills, but because I had tons of more time to get to persuade these people how much better I was!

And thus she persuaded me that sometimes, just sometimes, even the auditions are not 'honest'.

Then again I do know that I hire people I know for getting the job done. Not because they are the absolute best, but because I know them, we have established a communication channel, trust each other, etc... And this means a lot in the business world!

If a computer games company hires me to do their third game, after having worked with them in the previous two, does this mean I somehow cheated the competition? Or that it's just natural for this to happen? If I decide to pay Kreisler, or Joe, or Mark to get me a recording (random example of people, I have NOT contacted any of them for such reasons), would it be unfair to everyone else?

Not too far off the cheating process I think...
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#1756356 - 09/21/11 03:50 AM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: BruceD
In the context of the original question where the arguments of life and death situations were not implied, it is also hard for me to understand the precept that there are varying degrees of cheating, some of which seem to be acceptable to some while others are not;


That's because the word 'cheating' carries the implicit meaning 'wrong'. So asking when cheating might not be wrongdoing amounts to asking why wrongdoing might not be wrongdoing. The question is loaded to produce the answer you expect.

Try asking the same question in entirely neutral language. You might still get the same answer, but at least you'll be getting the answer on the basis of moral reasoning and not because somebody's behaviour happens to match a word template.

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#1756362 - 09/21/11 04:13 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.


I also tend to moral absolutism and yet I disagree utterly with your statement about 'grey areas'. There may be moral absolutes, but that doesn't mean that they can be applied in a cookie-cutter way without consideration of the deep principles that underly your moral code.

It might be wrong, for example to steal. But why? What is it that make it wrong? And, whatever it is, will that something have to be found in every situation that we attach the label 'stealing' to? Children continue to admire folk heros like Robin Hood because they stole for what are perceived to be the best of motives.

The grey areas arise not because of 'fuzziness on personal ethics', but because even cast-iron, absolute moral principles frequently come into conflict with one another. It's possible to go through life closing one's mind to this basic observation about the human condition but only, I imagine, with considerable effort.

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#1756365 - 09/21/11 04:22 AM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie.



Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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#1756367 - 09/21/11 04:24 AM Re: Would you? [Re: stores]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie.



Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!
I Agree SO MUCH with this! I'm so tired of all the complaint and the ability of a lot of people to skip the personal responsibility. They just feel it's someone elses' fault and nobody seems to feel the need to better themselves!

And this is coming from your local member from Greece so you can imagine the situation here (and the hatred towards the government and the EMF, etc...)


Edited by Nikolas (09/21/11 04:25 AM)
_________________________
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#1756423 - 09/21/11 07:28 AM Re: Would you? [Re: DianneB]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
Originally Posted By: DianneB
Quote:
You know it's wrong but would you do it?


As a poor, penniless music student, didn't you sign an agreement of academic honesty/integrity at that college?

If discovered, it could jeopardize both of you when you wish to graduate.

IMHO, you have an interest in this female student that goes beyond writing a paper.

Edited to add: "Don't compromise yourself." Janis Joplin


HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thank you Freud, I posted this out of curiosity to how people would respond. I said no flatly, offered help for nothing because I'm her friend. Oh and I'm a girl, and not a lesbian, if that was what you were suggesting ... we're friends, I feel some sympathy and a bit of empathy, it was hard for me when I started uni - I have so clueless to how to reference and write.

This has turned into a very interesting post and discussion ... the ending was pretty good actually. I said no continuously and now she's giving it a go, she just asked me if I can proof read and edit for her. smile
_________________________
http://colouredsilence.wordpress.com/


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#1756426 - 09/21/11 07:34 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie.



Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!
I Agree SO MUCH with this! I'm so tired of all the complaint and the ability of a lot of people to skip the personal responsibility. They just feel it's someone elses' fault and nobody seems to feel the need to better themselves!


Maybe.... but this is something I'm rather uneasy about. It's easy to say 'don't blame the system' when I'm one of those people whom 'the system' most favours -- white, middle-class professionals from white, middle-class families.

I used to teach in colleges in the slum areas of North London (you know, where the riots were :/), and many of the students I dealt with had to fight 'the system' all the way. Often they were extremely poor black and asian people, often from first-generation immigrant families. They frequently didn't speak English all that well, and had no family history of education beyond primary school. Frequently they didn't understand English culture and the (mostly English, white, middle-class) staff frequently didn't understand them. They didn't know or understand many of the unwritten conventions about how educational works in the UK. They didn't, and couldn't, use middle-class professional language in their written work, and this created a bad impression among people who have a dogmatic idea about what academic writing should like like. And so on.

And yet some of these folks flogged themselves into the ground to get an education. I had students who would study all day and then work all night. I had students bring their young families to classes because, well, because what else would they do with them? Some had families who were still living in the old country, in conditions of war and famine.

It must have been ten times harder for some of these people to get along in education than it was for me, and will be (I hope) for my children. Many of them failed; many blamed the system. But if you've worked and worked and worked and still failed, what else do you blame?

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#1756509 - 09/21/11 10:40 AM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Question to mods: This is one of the greater threads in PW. But it's quickly turning rather political/social... Can we carry on for this case, please?

Before I post...

(PS. I was going to reply to Kevin, but decided to check first. Thank you)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#1756530 - 09/21/11 11:16 AM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
You do not know how to write good questions then. If you write questions requiring a thorough understanding of a certain subject matter, it is hard to cheat. Even an open book exam will become very difficult.
It sounds like you're talking about essay questions(otherwise the difficulty is irrelevant in terms of cheating). But teachers have limited time to grade papers so tests that are exclusively essay questions are highly impractical.

Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
You need only one person to ensure none of the students work together. There are several ways to reduce the chance for them to work together, (1)increase the numbers of questions so that everybody will under pressure to finish their test. Therefore, the good students have no time to help others. (2) Use exactly the same questions, but scramble the numbers, so that there will be less chance that the students who sit next to each other will have the same sequence of questions. It is hard to work together if the sequence of the questions is not the same.
Although scrambling the order of questions may help and I've known a few teachers that did that, this poses other problems. There are four answer keys to make out to start with. There still may be a student with the same version within eyesight of a student who wants to cheat. Your suggestion making the test so long that the students will be under greater pressure to finish would result in some students not finishing the test.[/quote]

Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
About the audition, it is very unlikely people who are lacking in all aspects of music like what you described will be able to beat your Pianist No.2 who has well rounded musical knowledge.
Your reply ignored much of what Kreisler said about other conditions that might cause a student to do a poor audition.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/11 11:17 AM)

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#1756543 - 09/21/11 11:32 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Some posters may not be aware of the extreme pressure to do well for some high school students today(especially perhaps those in elite urban private schools).

An extreme example would be the case around 5-10 years ago of a terrific in every way NYC private school student who committed suicide by jumping out of the school window afer being caught cheating by a teacher. This was not a student who regularly cheated on tests.

I bring this up to point out that "everybody does it" is not always the rationale used by students for cheating.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/11 11:33 AM)

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#1756549 - 09/21/11 11:41 AM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
jotur Online   blank
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 5659
Loc: Santa Fe, NM
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Maybe.... but this is something I'm rather uneasy about. It's easy to say 'don't blame the system' when I'm one of those people whom 'the system' most favours -- white, middle-class professionals from white, middle-class families.

I used to teach in colleges in the slum areas of North London (you know, where the riots were :/), and many of the students I dealt with had to fight 'the system' all the way. Often they were extremely poor black and asian people, often from first-generation immigrant families. They frequently didn't speak English all that well, and had no family history of education beyond primary school. Frequently they didn't understand English culture and the (mostly English, white, middle-class) staff frequently didn't understand them. They didn't know or understand many of the unwritten conventions about how educational works in the UK. They didn't, and couldn't, use middle-class professional language in their written work, and this created a bad impression among people who have a dogmatic idea about what academic writing should like like. And so on.

And yet some of these folks flogged themselves into the ground to get an education. I had students who would study all day and then work all night. I had students bring their young families to classes because, well, because what else would they do with them? Some had families who were still living in the old country, in conditions of war and famine.

It must have been ten times harder for some of these people to get along in education than it was for me, and will be (I hope) for my children. Many of them failed; many blamed the system. But if you've worked and worked and worked and still failed, what else do you blame?



This.

I've taught in similar circumstances. Exhaustion from dealing with acoholic/abusive spouses (and, yes, males and females can be abusive) and the emotional habits that lead to that, minimum-wage jobs that won't accomodate school class schedules, disabled children and no place for child care, PTSD from several wars ago, any number of hidden stresses that we may not know about, can lead to behavior we might not otherwise condone in ourselves. Besides the fact that, as far as I can tell, all of us have at some time or another, gotten a break that wasn't "earned" at that moment. Nikolas gave good examples of circumstances when having a history with someone can help a current performance be forgiven if it isn't quite up to snuff.

Did I, when I caught blatant copying on tests or homework, fail the copiers on that particular task? Yes, I did. But it's hard for me to make blanket statements about right and wrong. In the circumstances in the OP I, too, would have said no and offered to help in other ways. But I also have given tests with extra time, allowed head phones to block out distractions (including internal ones), counted homework more than tests for some people, and made other accomodations for people. It's a real balancing act, and I don't think it's a human possibility to always get it right. I know some specific times when I didn't.

So my moral absolutes aren't very task specific laugh They are more like, always do the best you can given the knowledge you have and the situation you are in.

Cathy
_________________________

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#1756577 - 09/21/11 12:29 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin
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Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#1756626 - 09/21/11 01:31 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Diane...]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile

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#1756628 - 09/21/11 01:40 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianoloverus]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
It sounds like you're talking about essay questions(otherwise the difficulty is irrelevant in terms of cheating). But teachers have limited time to grade papers so tests that are exclusively essay questions are highly impractical.


Not necessarily, you can write multiple choice questions that can be answered only if you totally understand the topics.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Although scrambling the order of questions may help and I've known a few teachers that did that, this poses other problems. There are four answer keys to make out to start with. There still may be a student with the same version within eyesight of a student who wants to cheat. Your suggestion making the test so long that the students will be under greater pressure to finish would result in some students not finishing the test.


It does not need to be long, the test can be short but the students must utilize all of the time that they have, don't let them have enough time to do something else.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Your reply ignored much of what Kreisler said about other conditions that might cause a student to do a poor audition.
Because he made up unrealistic conditions.

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#1756632 - 09/21/11 01:43 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3450
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile


My main point is that I'd rather have a brain surgeon operate on me who had done the hard work himself then a brain surgeon who "cheated"!
Just saying! grin
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#1756635 - 09/21/11 01:44 PM Re: Would you? [Re: stores]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By: stores


Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!


It is apparent that you do not live in a real world.

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#1756639 - 09/21/11 01:47 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Diane...]
RonaldSteinway Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1510
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile


My main point is that I'd rather have a brain surgeon operate on me who had done the hard work himself then a brain surgeon who "cheated"!
Just saying! grin


People who can finish medical school cannot be stupid. They did not just take one test to become a doctor. They must be smart if they can cheat their way to becoming a doctor. Stupid people cannot even cheat well! It is not ethical to cheat, but for sure they are not dumb.

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#1756648 - 09/21/11 02:05 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: kevinb
As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile

Interesting that you were. I was too, and I don't mean just as a recipient. smile
And a lot of what I dealt with was stuff like what you said - to try to help get rid of what many of us considered nonsense like that. It sounds like you're proud that the grades were so low and that nobody got "97%." But I think it's just a bad comment on the nature of those tests.

We would all like to believe (and I can assure people that this is true, IMO of course) that the low marks didn't mean the students didn't know enough. What it meant was (IMO) that the tests asked things we didn't really need to know.

Right? smile

Because if not, it means none of the students knew enough of what was necessary, which in turn meant the schools were doing a lousy job of teaching what the students really needed to know, and I'm sure you wouldn't say that. smile

What's the sense of testing medical students on stuff they don't need to know? I can see the value of things like that in fields that are mainly academic, but in something like medicine, what we really want to know is, do the students and doctors know what they need to? IMO tests like that should require almost a perfect score in order to pass -- but they shouldn't include carap that the people don't need to know.

Back in the day I was in the groups that worked on modifying the MCAT and National Board Exams to try to make them more "relevant." Did it work? The former, I think not much. On the latter, I think quite a bit. Tests at individual schools are up to each school, but often they're geared toward the National Board exams, and so I'd guess that now, the schools' exams tend to be not as much like what you said. I hope so anyway.
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#1756652 - 09/21/11 02:11 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Registered: 05/29/01
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
It sounds like you're talking about essay questions(otherwise the difficulty is irrelevant in terms of cheating). But teachers have limited time to grade papers so tests that are exclusively essay questions are highly impractical.

Not necessarily, you can write multiple choice questions that can be answered only if you totally understand the topics.


Yes and copying the answers to hard multiple choice questions is no more difficult than copying easier ones.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Although scrambling the order of questions may help and I've known a few teachers that did that, this poses other problems. There are four answer keys to make out to start with. There still may be a student with the same version within eyesight of a student who wants to cheat. Your suggestion making the test so long that the students will be under greater pressure to finish would result in some students not finishing the test.

It does not need to be long, the test can be short but the students must utilize all of the time that they have, don't let them have enough time to do something else.



If a test is short it's a quiz. The difficulty in copying a non essay question answer has nothing to do with how long it takes to complete a test. A student whose paper is being copied doesn't need time to "do anything else".

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Your reply ignored much of what Kreisler said about other conditions that might cause a student to do a poor audition.
Because he made up unrealistic conditions.


I guess he wouldn't know since he teaches college and I suspect has judged many auditions.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/11 02:15 PM)

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#1756660 - 09/21/11 02:22 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Quote:
The grey areas arise not because of 'fuzziness on personal ethics', but because even cast-iron, absolute moral principles frequently come into conflict with one another. It's possible to go through life closing one's mind to this basic observation about the human condition but only, I imagine, with considerable effort.


I agree with this completely.

I think most of us would want to know something about each situation before we apply sanctions or make rigid judgments. Who wants to defend Javert? "Off with their heads" is not always the right judgment.

On the other hand, situational ethics can easily be a slippery slope into an abdication of personal responsibility (either of person engaging in the potentially unethical action, or for the people responsible for punishing the action).

For this reason, lines like this one from RonaldSteinway trouble me deeply.

Quote:
If I were not in the same class with the person who request for my service, I would have gone ahead do it. Nothing they can do to me,


All I can say is that I think your sense of what is ethical and my sense of what is ethical are almost orthogonal.
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#1756663 - 09/21/11 02:25 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Nikolas Offline
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile


My main point is that I'd rather have a brain surgeon operate on me who had done the hard work himself then a brain surgeon who "cheated"!
Just saying! grin


People who can finish medical school cannot be stupid. They did not just take one test to become a doctor. They must be smart if they can cheat their way to becoming a doctor. Stupid people cannot even cheat well! It is not ethical to cheat, but for sure they are not dumb.
Hem...

Being a doctor has little to do with being clever/stupid. Robots can do surgery but they are moronically stupid by human standards! grin

The idea is simple (what Diane meant I think): If someone gets 60% on a medical test, this means that they do NOT know the other 40%... which seems important, doesn't it?

BTW, my father was a cardiology professor in Greece (he's retired now), and he mentioned that the fail % in medicine was somewhere around 60-65% and not 50%- as mentioned here...
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#1756664 - 09/21/11 02:25 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....All I can say is that I think your sense of what is ethical and my sense of what is ethical are almost orthogonal.

Aren't you going off at sort of a right angle there? grin
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#1756665 - 09/21/11 02:26 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Because he made up unrealistic conditions.


Extreme, but not unrealistic. What I said was based on a number of true stories from my 7 years as a university professor. We admitted students with great auditions who turned out to have all kinds of problems, and we took chances on students with weak auditions who turned out to be quite successful.
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#1756666 - 09/21/11 02:26 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19871
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
....If someone gets 60% on a medical test, this means that they do NOT know the other 40%... which seems important, doesn't it?....

Seems, yes. Is, no. See my earlier post. smile
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#1756667 - 09/21/11 02:28 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Piano*Dad Online   content
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10422
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....All I can say is that I think your sense of what is ethical and my sense of what is ethical are almost orthogonal.

Aren't you going off at sort of a right angle there? grin


Indeed! Just wanted to see if anybody understood that term in a sentence. smile
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#1756669 - 09/21/11 02:29 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13818
Loc: Iowa City, IA
And on the subject of medical eduction, yes, students can (and do) cheat on their med school exams. It happens.

BUT...before you can be licensed, you have to go through three rounds of exams that are rigorously proctored (the USMLE Step exams) and at least three years of residency during which your work is observed by attending physicians. And that doesn't include exams for board certification in various specialities, which can require anywhere from 2-10 additional years and extra exams.

Work ethic and attitude is a much bigger problem in the medical field than knowledge issues.
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