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#1756670 - 09/21/11 02:29 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....Just wanted to see if anybody understood that term in a sentence. smile

.....and I expect you to be keeping score! ha
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#1756687 - 09/21/11 02:56 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
P.S. about the medical school tests.....maybe to shed more light on those low passing grades, but mainly because I think it's pretty much a hoot....

Back in the day, and maybe still, but I sure hope not ha many of those tests went through a fad in their format. A lot of the questions would give 4 "statements" and then the question would be something like this

".....Choose A if 1,2 and 3 are true
Choose B if only 1 and 3 are true
Choose C if 2 and 4 are true
Choose D if only 4 is true
Choose E if none are true" (or maybe it was if "all" are true, I'm not sure)

So, in order to get it right, you needed to know 4 things. It didn't differentiate between someone who knew 3 out of the 4 things, or none; you got 0 either way. And very often, one of the things was either a very small point, or sort of "trick" -- you couldn't necessarily tell how it was meant and you could argue it either way -- but the question depended on it. If you knew all the main things but couldn't guess right on the arcane thing, you got no credit.

I think the person who came up with that format might have been on drugs. ha Why the establishment went along with it for a long time, I can't explain. And as you can see, I'm still both traumatized by it and laughing my arse off over it. grin
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#1756759 - 09/21/11 04:56 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Musicfan1979 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/23/11
Posts: 122
Loc: USA
Wow!!! The one answer that stuck with me was the post with the recording of the transaction on the android and placing it on YouTube. This should be a warning to all you students on PW. Wow! Just think.... If you ask someone to write your paper, you may be on YouTube or paying the blackmailer until you graduate! So... Write your own papers! And... Never write someone else's for them.

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#1756801 - 09/21/11 05:52 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
casinitaly Offline

Gold Supporter until March 1 2014


Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 4665
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....Just wanted to see if anybody understood that term in a sentence. smile

.....and I expect you to be keeping score! ha


Well, I confess, I had to look it up!
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#1756846 - 09/21/11 07:10 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2048
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile


My main point is that I'd rather have a brain surgeon operate on me who had done the hard work himself then a brain surgeon who "cheated"!
Just saying! grin


People who can finish medical school cannot be stupid. They did not just take one test to become a doctor. They must be smart if they can cheat their way to becoming a doctor. Stupid people cannot even cheat well! It is not ethical to cheat, but for sure they are not dumb.
Hem...

Being a doctor has little to do with being clever/stupid. Robots can do surgery but they are moronically stupid by human standards! grin

The idea is simple (what Diane meant I think): If someone gets 60% on a medical test, this means that they do NOT know the other 40%... which seems important, doesn't it?

BTW, my father was a cardiology professor in Greece (he's retired now), and he mentioned that the fail % in medicine was somewhere around 60-65% and not 50%- as mentioned here...

Depends on your program...for what I'm doing, a 65% average is required to keep going on, but to gain entry into my program, everybody had a 90+ average in high school. The result is near-impossible exams which break up this group of students a wide range of marks again. I've had exams where the standard deviation was over 30 percent, where some people got 100s, and others, just above 10%...

So yeah, standards vary across schools. Though it seems for me, at least at my school, that every prof would rather fail everybody, make a huge mark distribution, and then adjust all of the marks back to a normal (65-70% average), than give an exam which results in an 80% average overall.
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#1757075 - 09/22/11 02:48 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
....If someone gets 60% on a medical test, this means that they do NOT know the other 40%... which seems important, doesn't it?....

Seems, yes. Is, no. See my earlier post. smile


Testing in UK higher education traditionally works on the basis that a reasonably competent, reasonably diligent student will score 50-60% on exams. The tests are set so as to deliver those figures. That is, we set tests so that competent people will score just over half marks.

Traditionally, the situation in medical education was just slightly different, in that degrees were not graded as they were in other subjects. I presume that's because it would undermine public confidence if they knew their doctors were graded 'lower second class'. But 'lower second class' is, and always has been, academic-speak for 'basic competence'.

These days many medical students combine their traditional clinical education with a science degree so that they, too, can graduate second-class.

The testing system is designed to put basic competence in about the middle of the scoring range (i.e., halfway between nothing and full marks). That way there's room for the exceptional candidates to demonstrate their prowess. If the pass mark was 90%, there would be little to distinguish the basically competent entrant from the genius.

I'm not defending the system -- just pointing out why it is the way it is.

And, as Kreisler says, we don't emply doctors, or anybody else, on the basis of test scores alone.

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#1757100 - 09/22/11 04:44 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
polyphasicpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 1238
Just to play Devil's Advocate, I would have to say that the ethical violation lies with the student offering to hand in the paper under the false assumption that they wrote it - you (as the ghost writer) are not lying to anyone, they are. You are nothing more than a ghost writer. It is none of your concern what they do or don't do with the paper, because once you take the money and hand over the paper, it no longer belongs to you, i.e. it's not your responsibility.

Here is an analogy: If a person buys a car from a dealership and then uses this car to intentionally kill somebody, it is illogical to blame the dealership. Unless, the person buying the car informed the dealer they were going to use it as a murder weapon.

So, as I see it, the only way this business of writing the person's paper could be considered un-ethical is if the behaviour of lying to the professor actually hurts other people.

Now, clearly the professor is not going to be hurt by this lie (assuming he does not find out about it), so I don't think that is really a issue. However, if, for instance, the person's grade is curved among other student's grades, then (assuming the paper you write results in them getting a higher grade than they would have got had they written it) the other student's grades will drop unjustly. This would be un-ethical. However, if the grade this person receives is in no way contingent upon the grade of anyone else, then I see no ethical violation on the part of you, the ghost writer.

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#1757110 - 09/22/11 06:26 AM Re: Would you? [Re: stores]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7424
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie.



Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!


It's "YOUR" fault only if you have 100% control over your DNA, your upbringing, your social matrix, the times you live in, etc. etc. etc.

As it happens, I never cheated in school and never helped anyone else cheat, nor have I ever been dishonest on job applications or in interviews. I have fought difficult moral battles in a big corporation. I don't cheat on taxes and I don't tell lies to get ahead. I have never shoplifted so much as a paper clip. I even try to avoid the "little white lies" commonly used as social expedients.

But I am not so egotistical and stupid as to imagine that all this honesty is a result of some kind of wonderful sense of personal responsibility on my part. It isn't. It's a result of many factors, none of which are my own doing. I am pretty sure that just a few slight changes in the variables that resulted in the "me" I am today could have turned me into almost the opposite of who I am, i.e., turned me into a lying cheating criminal, and again, in a way totally beyond my own control.

Having a well-developed sense of personal responsibility for oneself is important, if for no other reason than it is good mental hygiene. But pretending that each of us is some wholly self-determined island of responsibility in the world is ludicrous, IMO.

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#1757116 - 09/22/11 06:46 AM Re: Would you? [Re: wr]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: wr
But I am not so egotistical and stupid as to imagine that all this honesty is a result of some kind of wonderful sense of personal responsibility on my part. It isn't. It's a result of many factors, none of which are my own doing.


Well, I'm sure there are a few things you can reasonably take credit for wink

But, in general, I agree wholeheartedly. We all do the best we can within the limitations of our environment and genetics.

Those of us who have always worked hard, played fair, etc., very easily fall into the trap of assuming that we have no-one or nothing else to thank for our successes. It's easy to lose lose sight of the influence of blind chance, grace, or fate (according to your worldview) on the kind of person you are. I was very lucky to start my educational life with all the advantages one can possibly have. I'm not about to start rubbishing people without knowing what kind of shitty hand they may have been dealt.

I could go further and say that the entire political ideology of the Western world is founded on the entirely incorrect belief that we make ourselves what we are. But that, perhaps, is even more of a tangent than we need.

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#1757130 - 09/22/11 07:40 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
It's "YOUR" fault only if you have 100% control over your DNA, your upbringing, your social matrix, the times you live in, etc. etc. etc.


Sounds to me like a counsel of despair .... or a bit of good old-fashioned Calvinist predestination. grin

Even if we do NOT have 100% control, and only an egotistical fool would think that they did, there is a lot of mileage in behaving as though you do. This is where personal responsibility becomes a social as well as personal virtue.

If you rationalize that it's just fine to sell your papers, knowing full well what they will be used for, you have abdicated personal responsibility for a few pieces of silver. Poor choice, as far as I'm concerned.
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#1757146 - 09/22/11 08:09 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nikolas Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4994
Loc: Europe
Ok.

For the sensetive ones, it's better NOT to click on the first image

There is a story about Kevin Carter, a photographer, who after taking a picture of a young girl in Sudan trying to escape a vulture, did NOT help her (because he was told that these kids wouldn't stand a chance anyhow and that they were filled with deseases). The pic won a nobel prize and the photographer killed himself. The pic can be found HERE and some words about him HERE. It is 100% certain that the poor girl, whose fate is unknown had no power over her life really...

On the other hand there is a guy who gave a speech about "Are you going to finish strong?". The video can be found HERE (nothing bad here, just watch it, it's amazing. It's hard to say that he gave up because of the troubles he had in life, or because of various situations, right?

In other words, the girl asking to cheat is probably not deserving to cheat... Other cases mentioned by Kevin, they could and still finish strong and be ok in life, despite a tiny bit of cheating...


Edited by Nikolas (09/22/11 08:09 AM)
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#1757175 - 09/22/11 09:26 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
wr Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7424
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Quote:
It's "YOUR" fault only if you have 100% control over your DNA, your upbringing, your social matrix, the times you live in, etc. etc. etc.


Sounds to me like a counsel of despair .... or a bit of good old-fashioned Calvinist predestination. grin

Even if we do NOT have 100% control, and only an egotistical fool would think that they did, there is a lot of mileage in behaving as though you do. This is where personal responsibility becomes a social as well as personal virtue.

If you rationalize that it's just fine to sell your papers, knowing full well what they will be used for, you have abdicated personal responsibility for a few pieces of silver. Poor choice, as far as I'm concerned.


Sorry that this stuff causes you despair.

And, as you probably know, this response of yours is exactly what is expected from you. Don't let that get you down.

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#1757181 - 09/22/11 09:38 AM Re: Would you? [Re: polyphasicpianist]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19097
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: polyphasicpianist
Just to play Devil's Advocate, I would have to say that the ethical violation lies with the student offering to hand in the paper under the false assumption that they wrote it - you (as the ghost writer) are not lying to anyone, they are. You are nothing more than a ghost writer. It is none of your concern what they do or don't do with the paper, because once you take the money and hand over the paper, it no longer belongs to you, i.e. it's not your responsibility.

Here is an analogy: If a person buys a car from a dealership and then uses this car to intentionally kill somebody, it is illogical to blame the dealership. Unless, the person buying the car informed the dealer they were going to use it as a murder weapon.
The person writing the paper for another student knows exactly what will be done with it.

Originally Posted By: polyphasicpianist
So, as I see it, the only way this business of writing the person's paper could be considered un-ethical is if the behaviour of lying to the professor actually hurts other people.

Now, clearly the professor is not going to be hurt by this lie (assuming he does not find out about it), so I don't think that is really a issue. However, if, for instance, the person's grade is curved among other student's grades, then (assuming the paper you write results in them getting a higher grade than they would have got had they written it) the other student's grades will drop unjustly. This would be un-ethical. However, if the grade this person receives is in no way contingent upon the grade of anyone else, then I see no ethical violation on the part of you, the ghost writer.
Graduates who apply for jobs or graduate school are partly selected by their grades. So there is automatically some possibility for competition between the student who got the grade honestly and the one who didn't.

There's also the simple factor of the student not writing the paper getting the day off to do something they'd prefer to do. Would it be appropriate to give some people Monday off every week?

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#1757184 - 09/22/11 09:44 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10297
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
And, as you probably know, this response of yours is exactly what is expected from you. Don't let that get you down.




The perfect riposte! I'm glad I wasn't sipping coffee.
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#1757298 - 09/22/11 11:47 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Even if we do NOT have 100% control, and only an egotistical fool would think that they did, there is a lot of mileage in behaving as though you do. This is where personal responsibility becomes a social as well as personal virtue.


Well, yes, we all have to act as though we had some measure of control over our lives. Presumably there's a place between deterministic fatalism and selfish individualism where reasonable folk can live.

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#1757328 - 09/22/11 12:24 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: kevinb
...Traditionally, the situation in medical education was just slightly different....

You didn't comment at all on my main points.
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#1757845 - 09/23/11 06:21 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: kevinb
...Traditionally, the situation in medical education was just slightly different....

You didn't comment at all on my main points.


Sorry. Is this really the place for a discussion of testing methodologies for medical students? I mean, I'm happy to discuss it, but it just doesn't to have much to do with pianos.

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#1757857 - 09/23/11 07:28 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Damon Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 5914
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
You are a poor and penniless music student, you average A - B+ grades and your peer who struggles with essays offers you $100 to write her essay. She is very busy with her studies since she is a performance major. You know it's wrong but would you do it?



First, I have to know, is she hot?
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#1757920 - 09/23/11 11:24 AM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: kevinb
....Is this really the place for a discussion of testing methodologies for medical students? I mean, I'm happy to discuss it, but it just doesn't to have much to do with pianos.

True! But you're the one who brought up the subject, and I just replied -- and then you addressed it further without addressing what I had said to you! I mean, it's OK. Just sayin'. grin
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#1758149 - 09/23/11 06:30 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: kevinb
....Is this really the place for a discussion of testing methodologies for medical students? I mean, I'm happy to discuss it, but it just doesn't to have much to do with pianos.

True! But you're the one who brought up the subject, and I just replied -- and then you addressed it further without addressing what I had said to you! I mean, it's OK. Just sayin'. grin


Nothing personal, honest. I just wasn't paying attention smirk

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#1758158 - 09/23/11 06:53 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19292
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: kevinb
....I just wasn't paying attention smirk

Then you shouldn't be so proud of giving tests that med students only got 40 on! grin
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