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#1755175 - 09/19/11 08:33 AM Would you?
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
You are a poor and penniless music student, you average A - B+ grades and your peer who struggles with essays offers you $100 to write her essay. She is very busy with her studies since she is a performance major. You know it's wrong but would you do it?
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#1755178 - 09/19/11 08:39 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
(be honest)
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#1755181 - 09/19/11 08:43 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13802
Loc: Iowa City, IA
No.

(This actually happened to me once. I said no.)
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"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1755184 - 09/19/11 08:57 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
lol, don't you teach at a university Kreisler? Have you ever caught this crime? This is happening to me right now ... I am very naturally guilty, I've said no, offered to help for free, and I still get the same offer ...
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#1755192 - 09/19/11 09:04 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
some people are lazy.. why go to school if one is not committed to working? Perhaps she is committed but writing is a great way to learn.

I'd say no but would offer to clean or do laundry while she slaved away at the paper. I'd also offer to help her by editing or reading it as she progressed.
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love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#1755204 - 09/19/11 09:38 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Derek Hartwell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 219
Loc: United Kingdom
Whether you accept payment or not is irrelevant in one sense. Students must/should submit their own work, not someone else's, otherwise the reward they get is undeserved and sooner or later they will be found out! There is no question at all what the answer should be : NO!
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#1755207 - 09/19/11 09:48 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18137
Loc: Victoria, BC
Everything (everyone?) has its price. Whether or not you can be bought says as much about you as it does about the student who is willing to submit someone else's work as her own. It's your conscience - not our advice - that should be your guide. A person with integrity would not even ask this question.

Regards,
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#1755209 - 09/19/11 09:54 AM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
Legal Beagle Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
ABSOLUTELY not. And yes, that's an honest answer.

Aside from the obvious problem (it's wrong), it does not pass a risk/benefit analysis either. For $100 you're putting your integrity, your reputation, and all the work you've put in so far on the line. Once all that is gone, how long would the $100 last?
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#1755216 - 09/19/11 10:12 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13802
Loc: Iowa City, IA
We caught all kinds of cheating. Unfortunately, unless it's obvious plagiarism, it's very difficult to prove, so most students get away with it.

My favorite case was when a student threatened to appeal his grade because he thought I was being unfair. (He didn't turn in half of the homework and still thought he deserved a C.) He told me that if he didn't get a C in the course, he'd lose his scholarship. I told him to go ahead and appeal and that I'd tell the appeal committee "students who don't turn in half their homework don't deserve scholarships." He backed down and never appealed the grade. Hopefully he learned his lesson and won't test that kind of unethical behavior when it actually matters in the real world.

The kind of person who cheats is usually going to get caught or discovered as a fraud eventually. Your friend may not think learning to write essays is important, but she'll wish she had at some point. Even as a performer, one often ends up having to write cover letters for job applications or grant proposals for recording projects. If your friend wants a career in the arts, she's going to have to learn to write. Tell her that if she ever wants to be a professional adult, she needs to suck it up and start acting like one.

Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
lol, don't you teach at a university Kreisler? Have you ever caught this crime? This is happening to me right now ... I am very naturally guilty, I've said no, offered to help for free, and I still get the same offer ...
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1755227 - 09/19/11 10:27 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
lol, I'm not after advice, I'm just entertaining the idea ... to see how people's consciences work, to see if people would give in due to the forces of povety. I thought that this would be a more fun sort of discussion, thought I'd hear "well in my day I would have, lived so poor etc" instead this is all lecture-y sounding. I'm not going to do it, I mean as I said, I am a naturally guilty person - I don't brush my teeth, the next morning I feel guilty ... I've been nice enough to offer help in the past and this person has done well with some encouragement but apparently she can't write an essay in two weeks due to her schedule.
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#1755228 - 09/19/11 10:33 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18137
Loc: Victoria, BC
Did you really think that you'd get any other answers than the ones you have received? Did you really think that someone, in a public forum, would say : "Yes, I would do it; I need the money!" and thus mark him/herself as dishonest?

Everyone, publicly, is going to take the high road, hence the "lecture-y (sic!) sounding" replies.

Regards,
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Estonia 190

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#1755229 - 09/19/11 10:36 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
I would do it actually! I would also grab my android phone, record the student asking for it and find a way to grab video footage of me getting the money! Then I would post about it on the net and to the uni principal and everywhere else with the name of the student that asked me to do this! I would donate the money to an institute of some sort and then I would be hated for the rest of my life! grin (dark evil laughter): Bouahahahaha!
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#1755283 - 09/19/11 12:27 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21673
Loc: Oakland
Offer tutoring instead.
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Semipro Tech

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#1755300 - 09/19/11 12:50 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I would do it actually! I would also grab my android phone, record the student asking for it and find a way to grab video footage of me getting the money! Then I would post about it on the net and to the uni principal and everywhere else with the name of the student that asked me to do this! I would donate the money to an institute of some sort and then I would be hated for the rest of my life! grin (dark evil laughter): Bouahahahaha!


Well, there's a non-lecture-y answer! grin

Yes, this is a pretty odd topic. Thanks, Nikolas, for injecting a bit of fun!

I have caught plagiarism as a teacher. Heck, I've helped catch plagiarism here at PW. smokin
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#1755335 - 09/19/11 02:04 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I'd like to think I have more integrity and spine than that. It's not worth any kind of money a student would be capable of offering me to compromise my own ethics and degree. How lame!
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Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

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#1755341 - 09/19/11 02:11 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
No. For a simple and self-serving reason:

I won't enter into a contract with a dishonest person. If she's enough of a liar to cheat by paying you $100 for an essay, she's enough of a liar to stiff you or pay you only $20 since "well, it only got a B- so I don't think I should pay you $100 ... " or whatever.

There's two arguments against this. There's the ethical argument that it's cheating, which is just plain wrong. But the above argument that it's also putting you in thrall to someone who has demonstrated that they are underhanded and untrustworthy. If she'll cheat the school, she'll cheat YOU, too. What about later, when you're busy and can't do it? What will she do then when you aren't at her beck and call? Rat YOU out for having done it? She might be vengeful enough to be willing to take her own punishment just to shaft you, too.

People who are not to be trusted are to be AVOIDED. By taking her money, you are putting yourself in her power.
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#1755361 - 09/19/11 02:37 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13802
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#1755363 - 09/19/11 02:39 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I'd like to think I have more integrity and spine than that. It's not worth any kind of money a student would be capable of offering me to compromise my own ethics and degree. How lame!


but for a bit more ...... grin

Beware the Rick Perry syndrome. "I cannot be bought for $5,000." Give $100,000 and, well, maybe .... whome
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Grotrian 192 #156455

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#1755379 - 09/19/11 02:59 PM Re: Would you? [Re: J Cortese]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

There's two arguments against this. There's the ethical argument that it's cheating, which is just plain wrong. But the above argument that it's also putting you in thrall to someone who has demonstrated that they are underhanded and untrustworthy. If she'll cheat the school, she'll cheat YOU, too. What about later, when you're busy and can't do it? What will she do then when you aren't at her beck and call? Rat YOU out for having done it? She might be vengeful enough to be willing to take her own punishment just to shaft you, too.


What's "just plain wrong" about the ethical argument? I do agree with your second reason that it is unwise to accept this deal -- together with the "ethical argument".
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#1755386 - 09/19/11 03:09 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
At a lot of schools both the person who cheated and the person who facilitated the cheating would be punished. Your "friend" could decide not to pay you at all and get away with it, and you can't report her because you'd also be implicating yourself. Plus if word gets out, both your reputations/grades/potentially career would be compromised. Don't do it. Offer to tutor her for money instead, but make her do her own work.

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#1755390 - 09/19/11 03:14 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Wasn't there a composer that wrote a piece for someone else and let them put their name on it?
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All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.

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#1755392 - 09/19/11 03:16 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

There's two arguments against this. There's the ethical argument that it's cheating, which is just plain wrong.


What's "just plain wrong" about the ethical argument?


Bad parsing: the ethical argument is that it's cheating, and cheating is just plain wrong.
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#1755393 - 09/19/11 03:18 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
boo1234 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 512
Well, back in the day, I did people's papers for them and didn't think twice about it since they were paying me $200 to do it. I'm very pro capitalism, especially when it lines my pockets. laugh I always asked for 75% of the payment upfront and the rest when the grade was returned. While I can see why most people would deem this behavior to be unethical and morally irresponsible, I'm able to compartmentalize such things and don't really care that it was dishonest and whatnot. Someone needed a service and I was happy to provide it for the right price. I never did it for anyone while I was attending school, however.


Edited by boo1234 (09/19/11 03:20 PM)

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#1755398 - 09/19/11 03:20 PM Re: Would you? [Re: boo1234]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: boo1234
Someone needed a service and I was happy to provide it for the right price.


Said the drug dealer ...
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#1755405 - 09/19/11 03:30 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I'd like to think I have more integrity and spine than that. It's not worth any kind of money a student would be capable of offering me to compromise my own ethics and degree. How lame!


but for a bit more ...... grin

Beware the Rick Perry syndrome. "I cannot be bought for $5,000." Give $100,000 and, well, maybe .... whome


That is precisely why I worded it the way I did. I cannot think of an amount I'd compromise my integrity for, that would practically be offered. As a Christian, the knowledge that I answer for such dishonesty to the God of the universe is a powerful deterrent! But realistically, there may be some amount I'd cave for (nothing that a student would give, though) - but it would be completely, sinfully wrong and would weigh heavily on my conscience. That knowledge makes the prospect incredibly unattractive, given the belief system and moral code I adhere to. However I acknowledge my flawed state, which makes it possible if entirely improbable, that I'd be bought for something so cheap as someone else's grade.
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#1755409 - 09/19/11 03:32 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10385
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
Said the drug dealer ...

The risk from overdosing on an academic paper is low .... grin
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https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

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#1755414 - 09/19/11 03:35 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
Said the drug dealer ...

The risk from overdosing on an academic paper is low .... grin


Yet possible....
_________________________
All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.

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#1755420 - 09/19/11 03:43 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Haha! Now that is a mental image, right there...
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Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

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#1755431 - 09/19/11 03:54 PM Re: Would you? [Re: J Cortese]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

There's two arguments against this. There's the ethical argument that it's cheating, which is just plain wrong.


What's "just plain wrong" about the ethical argument?


Bad parsing: the ethical argument is that it's cheating, and cheating is just plain wrong.


Thanks for clarifying!
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Sam

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#1755434 - 09/19/11 03:55 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
moscheles001 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 753
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
True poetic justice would be that the cheating student, when handing the paper in, gets a tiny paper cut, which becomes infected, resulting in the loss of that finger, thus ending her performing career.

Sounds like an episode of "Alfred Hitchcock Presents."

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