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#1755175 - 09/19/11 08:33 AM Would you?
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
You are a poor and penniless music student, you average A - B+ grades and your peer who struggles with essays offers you $100 to write her essay. She is very busy with her studies since she is a performance major. You know it's wrong but would you do it?
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#1755178 - 09/19/11 08:39 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
(be honest)
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#1755181 - 09/19/11 08:43 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
No.

(This actually happened to me once. I said no.)
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#1755184 - 09/19/11 08:57 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
lol, don't you teach at a university Kreisler? Have you ever caught this crime? This is happening to me right now ... I am very naturally guilty, I've said no, offered to help for free, and I still get the same offer ...
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#1755192 - 09/19/11 09:04 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
some people are lazy.. why go to school if one is not committed to working? Perhaps she is committed but writing is a great way to learn.

I'd say no but would offer to clean or do laundry while she slaved away at the paper. I'd also offer to help her by editing or reading it as she progressed.
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#1755204 - 09/19/11 09:38 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Derek Hartwell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 219
Loc: United Kingdom
Whether you accept payment or not is irrelevant in one sense. Students must/should submit their own work, not someone else's, otherwise the reward they get is undeserved and sooner or later they will be found out! There is no question at all what the answer should be : NO!
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#1755207 - 09/19/11 09:48 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BruceD Online   content
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Everything (everyone?) has its price. Whether or not you can be bought says as much about you as it does about the student who is willing to submit someone else's work as her own. It's your conscience - not our advice - that should be your guide. A person with integrity would not even ask this question.

Regards,
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#1755209 - 09/19/11 09:54 AM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
Legal Beagle Offline
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Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 776
ABSOLUTELY not. And yes, that's an honest answer.

Aside from the obvious problem (it's wrong), it does not pass a risk/benefit analysis either. For $100 you're putting your integrity, your reputation, and all the work you've put in so far on the line. Once all that is gone, how long would the $100 last?
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#1755216 - 09/19/11 10:12 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
We caught all kinds of cheating. Unfortunately, unless it's obvious plagiarism, it's very difficult to prove, so most students get away with it.

My favorite case was when a student threatened to appeal his grade because he thought I was being unfair. (He didn't turn in half of the homework and still thought he deserved a C.) He told me that if he didn't get a C in the course, he'd lose his scholarship. I told him to go ahead and appeal and that I'd tell the appeal committee "students who don't turn in half their homework don't deserve scholarships." He backed down and never appealed the grade. Hopefully he learned his lesson and won't test that kind of unethical behavior when it actually matters in the real world.

The kind of person who cheats is usually going to get caught or discovered as a fraud eventually. Your friend may not think learning to write essays is important, but she'll wish she had at some point. Even as a performer, one often ends up having to write cover letters for job applications or grant proposals for recording projects. If your friend wants a career in the arts, she's going to have to learn to write. Tell her that if she ever wants to be a professional adult, she needs to suck it up and start acting like one.

Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
lol, don't you teach at a university Kreisler? Have you ever caught this crime? This is happening to me right now ... I am very naturally guilty, I've said no, offered to help for free, and I still get the same offer ...
_________________________
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#1755227 - 09/19/11 10:27 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 732
Loc: Australia, Melbourne
lol, I'm not after advice, I'm just entertaining the idea ... to see how people's consciences work, to see if people would give in due to the forces of povety. I thought that this would be a more fun sort of discussion, thought I'd hear "well in my day I would have, lived so poor etc" instead this is all lecture-y sounding. I'm not going to do it, I mean as I said, I am a naturally guilty person - I don't brush my teeth, the next morning I feel guilty ... I've been nice enough to offer help in the past and this person has done well with some encouragement but apparently she can't write an essay in two weeks due to her schedule.
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#1755228 - 09/19/11 10:33 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BruceD Online   content
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Registered: 05/26/01
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Loc: Victoria, BC
Did you really think that you'd get any other answers than the ones you have received? Did you really think that someone, in a public forum, would say : "Yes, I would do it; I need the money!" and thus mark him/herself as dishonest?

Everyone, publicly, is going to take the high road, hence the "lecture-y (sic!) sounding" replies.

Regards,
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#1755229 - 09/19/11 10:36 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5212
Loc: Europe
I would do it actually! I would also grab my android phone, record the student asking for it and find a way to grab video footage of me getting the money! Then I would post about it on the net and to the uni principal and everywhere else with the name of the student that asked me to do this! I would donate the money to an institute of some sort and then I would be hated for the rest of my life! grin (dark evil laughter): Bouahahahaha!
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#1755283 - 09/19/11 12:27 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BDB Online   content
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Offer tutoring instead.
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#1755300 - 09/19/11 12:50 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I would do it actually! I would also grab my android phone, record the student asking for it and find a way to grab video footage of me getting the money! Then I would post about it on the net and to the uni principal and everywhere else with the name of the student that asked me to do this! I would donate the money to an institute of some sort and then I would be hated for the rest of my life! grin (dark evil laughter): Bouahahahaha!


Well, there's a non-lecture-y answer! grin

Yes, this is a pretty odd topic. Thanks, Nikolas, for injecting a bit of fun!

I have caught plagiarism as a teacher. Heck, I've helped catch plagiarism here at PW. smokin
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#1755335 - 09/19/11 02:04 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
I'd like to think I have more integrity and spine than that. It's not worth any kind of money a student would be capable of offering me to compromise my own ethics and degree. How lame!
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#1755341 - 09/19/11 02:11 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
No. For a simple and self-serving reason:

I won't enter into a contract with a dishonest person. If she's enough of a liar to cheat by paying you $100 for an essay, she's enough of a liar to stiff you or pay you only $20 since "well, it only got a B- so I don't think I should pay you $100 ... " or whatever.

There's two arguments against this. There's the ethical argument that it's cheating, which is just plain wrong. But the above argument that it's also putting you in thrall to someone who has demonstrated that they are underhanded and untrustworthy. If she'll cheat the school, she'll cheat YOU, too. What about later, when you're busy and can't do it? What will she do then when you aren't at her beck and call? Rat YOU out for having done it? She might be vengeful enough to be willing to take her own punishment just to shaft you, too.

People who are not to be trusted are to be AVOIDED. By taking her money, you are putting yourself in her power.
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#1755361 - 09/19/11 02:37 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#1755363 - 09/19/11 02:39 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I'd like to think I have more integrity and spine than that. It's not worth any kind of money a student would be capable of offering me to compromise my own ethics and degree. How lame!


but for a bit more ...... grin

Beware the Rick Perry syndrome. "I cannot be bought for $5,000." Give $100,000 and, well, maybe .... whome
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#1755379 - 09/19/11 02:59 PM Re: Would you? [Re: J Cortese]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

There's two arguments against this. There's the ethical argument that it's cheating, which is just plain wrong. But the above argument that it's also putting you in thrall to someone who has demonstrated that they are underhanded and untrustworthy. If she'll cheat the school, she'll cheat YOU, too. What about later, when you're busy and can't do it? What will she do then when you aren't at her beck and call? Rat YOU out for having done it? She might be vengeful enough to be willing to take her own punishment just to shaft you, too.


What's "just plain wrong" about the ethical argument? I do agree with your second reason that it is unwise to accept this deal -- together with the "ethical argument".
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#1755386 - 09/19/11 03:09 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Frozenicicles Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 1324
Loc: Canada
At a lot of schools both the person who cheated and the person who facilitated the cheating would be punished. Your "friend" could decide not to pay you at all and get away with it, and you can't report her because you'd also be implicating yourself. Plus if word gets out, both your reputations/grades/potentially career would be compromised. Don't do it. Offer to tutor her for money instead, but make her do her own work.

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#1755390 - 09/19/11 03:14 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
TheHappyMoron Offline
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Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Wasn't there a composer that wrote a piece for someone else and let them put their name on it?
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#1755392 - 09/19/11 03:16 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
J Cortese Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

There's two arguments against this. There's the ethical argument that it's cheating, which is just plain wrong.


What's "just plain wrong" about the ethical argument?


Bad parsing: the ethical argument is that it's cheating, and cheating is just plain wrong.
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#1755393 - 09/19/11 03:18 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
boo1234 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 504
Well, back in the day, I did people's papers for them and didn't think twice about it since they were paying me $200 to do it. I'm very pro capitalism, especially when it lines my pockets. laugh I always asked for 75% of the payment upfront and the rest when the grade was returned. While I can see why most people would deem this behavior to be unethical and morally irresponsible, I'm able to compartmentalize such things and don't really care that it was dishonest and whatnot. Someone needed a service and I was happy to provide it for the right price. I never did it for anyone while I was attending school, however.


Edited by boo1234 (09/19/11 03:20 PM)

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#1755398 - 09/19/11 03:20 PM Re: Would you? [Re: boo1234]
J Cortese Offline
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Registered: 07/20/09
Posts: 357
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted By: boo1234
Someone needed a service and I was happy to provide it for the right price.


Said the drug dealer ...
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#1755405 - 09/19/11 03:30 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I'd like to think I have more integrity and spine than that. It's not worth any kind of money a student would be capable of offering me to compromise my own ethics and degree. How lame!


but for a bit more ...... grin

Beware the Rick Perry syndrome. "I cannot be bought for $5,000." Give $100,000 and, well, maybe .... whome


That is precisely why I worded it the way I did. I cannot think of an amount I'd compromise my integrity for, that would practically be offered. As a Christian, the knowledge that I answer for such dishonesty to the God of the universe is a powerful deterrent! But realistically, there may be some amount I'd cave for (nothing that a student would give, though) - but it would be completely, sinfully wrong and would weigh heavily on my conscience. That knowledge makes the prospect incredibly unattractive, given the belief system and moral code I adhere to. However I acknowledge my flawed state, which makes it possible if entirely improbable, that I'd be bought for something so cheap as someone else's grade.
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#1755409 - 09/19/11 03:32 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
Said the drug dealer ...

The risk from overdosing on an academic paper is low .... grin
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#1755414 - 09/19/11 03:35 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
Said the drug dealer ...

The risk from overdosing on an academic paper is low .... grin


Yet possible....
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#1755420 - 09/19/11 03:43 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Haha! Now that is a mental image, right there...
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Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

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#1755431 - 09/19/11 03:54 PM Re: Would you? [Re: J Cortese]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: J Cortese
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: J Cortese

There's two arguments against this. There's the ethical argument that it's cheating, which is just plain wrong.


What's "just plain wrong" about the ethical argument?


Bad parsing: the ethical argument is that it's cheating, and cheating is just plain wrong.


Thanks for clarifying!
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#1755434 - 09/19/11 03:55 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
moscheles001 Offline
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Registered: 09/13/08
Posts: 753
Loc: Northeast Pennsylvania
True poetic justice would be that the cheating student, when handing the paper in, gets a tiny paper cut, which becomes infected, resulting in the loss of that finger, thus ending her performing career.

Sounds like an episode of "Alfred Hitchcock Presents."

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#1755451 - 09/19/11 04:25 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Well, if you don't see anything wrong with it, I guess the choice depends on your taste for risk. At my institution, someone who turns in work not their own faces expulsion. We take the issue fairly seriously. Students, BTW, run the council that decides the evidence and the punishment.
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#1755463 - 09/19/11 04:35 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Um yes, it IS. You're getting a grade for work you didn't do. Now, while I personally favor classes with no homework and one or two massive exams/papers as proof of learning, very few are run that way. By entering the class you submitting to the school's academic policy, which demands any work you put your name on is a true representation of YOUR time, effort, and knowledge. By violating that policy, you are defrauding the university, misrepresenting your own output, and (depending on your class's grade scheme) throwing off the curve for the rest of the students.

I will fully grant that I have always been a goody-goody, academically, but I find cheating completely disgusting. I hate homework as much as the next person, especially when I already know the concept, but that doesn't then give me license to essentially lie about my work to make life easier for me. If I signed an academic policy, I have an obligation to abide by it. I am only as good as my word and cheating invalidates that honesty.
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#1755471 - 09/19/11 04:38 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
No. All you could do is TEACH her how to write essays if this is her problem and she can't write (or is she just lazy?), give her lessons for money maybe, but not do the homework for her. Among other things, believe me, it wouldn't be the last time. She would most certainly ask again.
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#1755491 - 09/19/11 05:04 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
TheHappyMoron Offline
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Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
I understand that if the person doesn't know the work and can't be bothered to learn it and so simply asks someone else to do it for them then that is pretty pathetic. But I agree with Pogorelich; i don't see the problem with people helping - surely the point of education is to educate, so if one understands the point then surely the job is done - it's not like the student has missed out on a valuable life experience by getting someone to do them a favour.
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#1755500 - 09/19/11 05:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
jnod Offline
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Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 794
Loc: Toronto
No, never, don't do it. I'm a university prof and I go after people who make this 'mistake' like a barracuda. It's deeply, unforgivably wrong.
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#1755501 - 09/19/11 05:21 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17829
Loc: Victoria, BC
The lack of ethics that a few of the responses represent here are beyond my comprehension.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190

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#1755502 - 09/19/11 05:22 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
TheHappyMoron Offline
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Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Ethics is always a touchy subject grin
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#1755528 - 09/19/11 06:00 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Kreisler]
stores Offline
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Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


+1
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#1755530 - 09/19/11 06:01 PM Re: Would you? [Re: jnod]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10349
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Originally Posted By: jnod
I go after people who make this 'mistake' like a barracuda.


What a visual image! smile
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#1755552 - 09/19/11 06:25 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6070
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
No. Unless it was an outrageous amount of money like Kriesler said, hehe.

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#1755554 - 09/19/11 06:28 PM Re: Would you? [Re: stores]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


Well... I could rethink my position for a Steinway D and a house to put it in (my apartment would be too small). laugh
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Music is my best friend.


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#1755575 - 09/19/11 06:56 PM Re: Would you? [Re: ChopinAddict]
aidans Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 141
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


Well... I could rethink my position for a Steinway D and a house to put it in (my apartment would be too small). laugh


What about adjusting the question in the other direction? For $10, would you hand in a friend's homework if he intended to ditch class? What if the teacher uses the homework assignment as a roll call? If the homework assignment is to bring something to class, like, say, index cards (this happened to me in an upper division number theory course), is it appropriate to bring extras for other students that forgot? (I forgot, as anyone who knows me would expect, and a friend bailed me out. She brought extras specifically because, knowing me, she expected that I would forget.)

I'm intrigued by the question of where to draw the line between cheating - writing another student's essay is clearly wrong - and "helping" - proofreading another student's essay for grammar and spelling is generally perfectly acceptable.

I used to edit my wife's essays, and while I never injected any new content, I would sometimes make substantive changes, like re-ordering paragraphs, or significantly re-wording a sentence in order to make it more compelling. She always made the final decisions, but I'm confident that her papers ended up being better than they would have been without my help. Sometimes I felt like I was going too far, but how much help is too much help? And does it instantly become "cheating," when you cross that line, or is it some kind of gradient?

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#1755591 - 09/19/11 07:35 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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I said I wasn't going to do it ... and I still get these messages that sound all lecture-y. As wrong as it is to cheat, I just find it funny in a way that it actually happens, students pay other students to write their papers - I thought that was just a myth. Besides this, I've come across a number of students who would do it. I've helped this person before, and in the end I've done a lot of the work for her ... she's thankful but it does feel like a burden at times. I might be idealistic but I feel like people should like history ... people should be inquisitive, they should question what they are learning, question the music, question the composer, in a healthy curious sense. To see people not give a damn and ask somebody to write their essay for them is just sad.

I said no in a nice way, I offered her help, told her that knew she could do it, said to her is not hard compared to the advanced history courses I do and she still asked me if I could write it. She said it's not cheating (sure if I close my eyes, then the sun isn't out!) and put god into the equation (she's going to do some religious missionary camp for a week) and said that's why she cant write it. Ironic no?

I told her the person marking will probably catch this crime. This is one of my personal tutors! And she said if I write the whole thing up in point form, do all the research for her, then she could write the whole thing. I guess it's better than me actually doing the paper.

Nevermind, maybe I should just tell her that I'm too busy. It's better than telling her it's cheating because she'd convince me it's not, and we'll walk around the same circle again.
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#1755597 - 09/19/11 07:41 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
gooddog Offline
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Would I do it? My answer is a resounding NO! I have to live with myself and I won't live with a dishonest person. Do I have a price? Probably, but the price would have to involve life and death before I'd compromise my values.
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#1755600 - 09/19/11 07:50 PM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
Did you really think that you'd get any other answers than the ones you have received? Did you really think that someone, in a public forum, would say : "Yes, I would do it; I need the money!"

I'm reasonably principled, I think, and some say I'm hypertrophically principled grin but if I "needed the money" (assuming we take "need" fairly literally), I'm pretty sure I would have done it.

I didn't read all the replies but did skim the first few. I see that some of them talk about the risk that we'd supposedly be taking. I wouldn't think that is so, not greatly anyway. I would think that by far most of the risk is with the other person. I don't mean that this is what decides the basic question, just saying.

BTW, when I was in college I sort of did something like that, kinda sorta. I typed well, and (more importantly) I had a typewriter. ha Others kids sometimes offered to pay me to type their papers, and I did. No issue so far. But the thing is, I couldn't bear to type misspellings or flat-out lousy grammar, so I corrected whatever I saw. Then, I suppose, they got the credit for the good spelling and grammar.

I didn't charge extra for the "editorial" help, but it was probably some of what kept up the demand for my services. grin

edit: I see that Aidans said similar stuff.


Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I'd like to think I have more integrity and spine than that. It's not worth any kind of money a student would be capable of offering me to compromise my own ethics and degree. How lame!
but for a bit more ...... grin

Beware the Rick Perry syndrome. "I cannot be bought for $5,000." Give $100,000 and, well, maybe .... whome

Yes -- that was hilarious! (Unintentionally of course....)
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#1755602 - 09/19/11 07:53 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
LimeFriday Offline
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Quite apart from the ethical issues - it's a clear case of academic dishonesty - and both of you could end up being kicked out of your degree. If you read the policy of your Uni - you'll find that in most cases - both the person that handed in work that was not her own - AND the person who provided that work - are both guilty of academic dishonesty.

Doing the research and providing dot points is not much different from writing the entire essay. I personally wouldn't do it. And I think I'd be pretty offended if someone asked me to do it! If she's too busy to do assigned work - then she should drop classes to reduce her workload - not ask someone else to prop her up!


Edited by LimeFriday (09/19/11 07:54 PM)

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#1755606 - 09/19/11 08:00 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Sometimes I was bullied and people just took my notes off me (expanded by going to the library)... ha

I have also helped people with whom I am still in contact though. (I didn't help with cheating of course, we just went through stuff together.)

There is of course a huge difference between helping to understand a particular subject and helping to cheat.

At any rate I have recently considered taking up karate or some other martial arts (for possible future bullies). ha ha
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#1755630 - 09/19/11 08:30 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
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BTW, spend too much time doing what that little emoticon in your post is doing and you'll spend a lot less time playing the piano. smile

[In the dim dark past (about five years ago) I studied Tae Kwan Do. I broke a lot of boards. It was a lot of fun. Confidence generated success, which built more confidence. But on occasion, one of the suckers resisted my best efforts. I woke up the next day with very sore hands. One of my friends broke his hand on his first attempt at a board break!]
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#1755635 - 09/19/11 08:33 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
ChopinAddict Offline
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ha I had thought of that too... Maybe I should find another form of self-defense. smile
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#1755660 - 09/19/11 09:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: ChopinAddict]
Drunk3nFist Offline
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Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
No. All you could do is TEACH her how to write essays if this is her problem and she can't write (or is she just lazy?), give her lessons for money maybe, but not do the homework for her. Among other things, believe me, it wouldn't be the last time. She would most certainly ask again.


Amen.
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#1755674 - 09/19/11 10:21 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
pianojerome Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
I said I wasn't going to do it ... and I still get these messages that sound all lecture-y.


Nobody's lecturing you -- just answering your question! You asked if people would do it. You got your answer: almost everyone who responded wouldn't do it. It seems you expected most people to say that they would do it.
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#1755690 - 09/19/11 10:59 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianojerome
....almost everyone who responded wouldn't do it....

A problem with things like this is that what people say (and believe) they'd do and what they'd actually do aren't necessarily the same. And of course I think much of it depends on exactly what kind of financial situation someone is in. A lot does. I said I thought I would have done it, if I "needed" the money. If we mean "need" literally enough, I think almost everyone would.
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#1755693 - 09/19/11 11:05 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
....almost everyone who responded wouldn't do it....

A problem with things like this is that what people say (and believe) they'd do and what they'd actually do aren't necessarily the same. And of course I think much of it depends on exactly what kind of financial situation someone is in. A lot does. I said I thought I would have done it, if I "needed" the money. If we mean "need" literally enough, I think almost everyone would.


Indeed, some people have eaten other people when the alternative is starvation.
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#1755695 - 09/19/11 11:13 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
Indeed, some people have eaten other people when the alternative is starvation.

I have a feeling you weren't serious grin but that might actually be a good analogy.

Off the subj, but way back in the day, an episode of the TV series "The Defenders" (great show) was about exactly that.

But I admit this stuff about extreme need that I talked about might be beside the point, because I don't think Nannerl meant if we're desperate enough to eat people. smile
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#1755705 - 09/19/11 11:26 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Yeah. I don't know if many of you actually understand the concept of "having no money for food". Or rent. Or whatever the [censored].
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#1755711 - 09/19/11 11:36 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Damon Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Damon
Indeed, some people have eaten other people when the alternative is starvation.

I have a feeling you weren't serious grin but that might actually be a good analogy.

Off the subj, but way back in the day, an episode of the TV series "The Defenders" (great show) was about exactly that.

But I admit this stuff about extreme need that I talked about might be beside the point, because I don't think Nannerl meant if we're desperate enough to eat people. smile


I assume this must be the E.G. Marshall Defenders? Actually, I was kind of serious while realizing it seemed served with a side of hyperbole. I recently read an account on the voyage of the Essex (whaling ship) whose crew eventually resorted to cannibalism. Bottom line is, I don't think there are many lines that won't be crossed if the circumstance is right.
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#1755715 - 09/19/11 11:48 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Damon]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Damon
I assume this must be the E.G. Marshall Defenders?

Yes!!!
Finest show in TV history -- until Beavis & Butt-head. grin

Quote:
....Bottom line is, I don't think there are many lines that won't be crossed if the circumstance is right.

That was my point -- which I admit is also why it was meaningless. ha
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#1755727 - 09/20/11 12:24 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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lol ... Saying you wouldn't do it is not lecturing, lecturing to me is going into this whole oh this is ethically wrong, academic theft, a crime - don't do it, you shouldn't do it ... well duh ... you think I don't know that? (I've been in school for 15 years :S). I'm idealistic when it comes to money, I believe in altruism and think that is something that can be forgotten in our captitalistic society (although Australia is essentially a socialist country). So with that in mind, I offered free help and I was met with the same response "please can you do it for me, I really can't do it, and I'll pay you" ... I don't know how to proceed next ... maybe I will write it for her, and I'll submit the following: "this is cheating write your own essay."

I will say though, it is nice to hear that people on this forum, assuming that the vast majority are adults older than me, (I'm 19 so I'm on the lower end of the age spectrum) ... It's nice to hear that they wouldn't ... I've asked that question to some of my peers and they said that they would do it. I've also heard stories of people faking sick to escape an exam. I have no idea how on earth they can fake sick to a doctor ... but that's another thing I'd never do, I'd rather fail.
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#1755734 - 09/20/11 12:50 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
jeffreyjones Offline
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No. Offer to tutor, proofread, edit, but not to write the whole thing.

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#1755737 - 09/20/11 01:05 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Yes. I have done that. I have offered to help ... and by help I mean tutor, proof read and edit ... I offered all of this FOR FREE ... she asked me if I could do it (again) ...
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#1755741 - 09/20/11 01:28 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
currawong Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
(although Australia is essentially a socialist country).
You're joking surely?
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#1755746 - 09/20/11 01:41 AM Re: Would you? [Re: currawong]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
(although Australia is essentially a socialist country).
You're joking surely?

I didn't get it either, but of course you're in a better position to get it or not get it.

Eyes of the beholder, I suppose, in the same sense that a lot of people seem to think the U.S. has a socialist president....
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#1755747 - 09/20/11 01:41 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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You disagree? (please don't throw things at me ...) Incomes vary, and taxes vary depending on income amount.
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#1755749 - 09/20/11 01:43 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Mark_C Offline
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That's called "progressive tax," a common characteristic of capitalist economies....
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#1755752 - 09/20/11 01:47 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Oh yeah, also forgot to mention that education and healthcare is free...
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#1755758 - 09/20/11 01:56 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nikolas Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
Oh yeah, also forgot to mention that education and healthcare is free...
And so it happens that in Greece the same thing happens. But as evident as it can be:
1. Socialists complain that the country is NOT socialistic enough!
2. Right wing parties complain that the country is TOO socialistic.

3. And in the meantime the country goes closer to the dump from day to day...

Go figure...

I just don't really like 'labels'. Simple as that!
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#1755761 - 09/20/11 02:00 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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You have a point... I always feel like I'm in trouble when I mention the words communism, capitalism, socialism ... somebody disagrees and it gets awkward...
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#1755763 - 09/20/11 02:01 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Mark_C Offline
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Back on topic, please!
The question is, should the government pay for people to get their papers written for them?

Please discuss, comparing and contrasting, with specific examples where appropriate. Be sure to use a well-sharpened #2 pencil.
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#1755776 - 09/20/11 02:25 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Nikolas Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The question is, should the government pay for people to get their papers written for them?
In Greece throughout out childhood we are taught about religion. It's something I totally don't like, it's something we are forced to do and in general it's quite difficult to escape the whole 'Orthodox' thinking. For me it was a great hassle to study it. I was into science and that was about it (and music of course). Same wise I loathed learning about ancient Greek.

I've not regretted not learning a lot about religion, but I do regret not learning ancient Greek... I have cheated in both classes, though I never paid anyone to do my homework.

______________________

Honestly though, it would seem to me that the student asking to pay in order to pass the class has other attributes! That of a winner! grin (if not caught). That of someone who will stop at nothing to get what they want! That who has no ethical boundaries.

And this is where it gets interesting: It's not what kind of people we want in our society, but what kind of people will be successful in our society. At least from their point of view! Are we in the era were honesty, hard work and ethics mean less than the ability to lie successfully, cheat and find ways to do it?

And that IS a serious question!

(Sorry for blacking this thread so much... I can't help it right now... sorry)
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#1755777 - 09/20/11 02:30 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Back on topic, please!
The question is, should the government pay for people to get their papers written for them?

Please discuss, comparing and contrasting, with specific examples where appropriate. Be sure to use a well-sharpened #2 pencil.


They sort of do don't they ... there's a guy in my class who worked as a professional speech writer ... (sorry it wasn't in 2b with a sharpened pencil :P)
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#1755782 - 09/20/11 02:46 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
The question is, should the government pay for people to get their papers written for them?
In Greece throughout out childhood we are taught about religion. It's something I totally don't like, it's something we are forced to do and in general it's quite difficult to escape the whole 'Orthodox' thinking. For me it was a great hassle to study it. I was into science and that was about it (and music of course). Same wise I loathed learning about ancient Greek.

I've not regretted not learning a lot about religion, but I do regret not learning ancient Greek... I have cheated in both classes, though I never paid anyone to do my homework.

______________________

Honestly though, it would seem to me that the student asking to pay in order to pass the class has other attributes! That of a winner! grin (if not caught). That of someone who will stop at nothing to get what they want! That who has no ethical boundaries.

And this is where it gets interesting: It's not what kind of people we want in our society, but what kind of people will be successful in our society. At least from their point of view! Are we in the era were honesty, hard work and ethics mean less than the ability to lie successfully, cheat and find ways to do it?

And that IS a serious question!

(Sorry for blacking this thread so much... I can't help it right now... sorry)


lol it's ok ... you have a point. And so does everybody else who answered with all seriousness ...

You know that is a difficult question ... Australia is quite different to Greece I guess, in the sense that it is a secular country. Religious education is sometimes included as an 'extra' sort of class. Teachers are not to talk about their beliefs to children or students, at least not in a preachy sense . A number of students who I've talked to would fake sick to get out of a major exam or assignment. I've just been approached by somebody who offered me money to do an essay, and I've talked to fellow students about this, many replied that they would actually do it. I wonder if the lack or religious education might be the reason why people (fellow students my age) would happily help another person cheat. Having said that, I've only talked to a few people, not enough to make any sweeping generalisations.

Looking at that person who asked me to help her cheat, she's a religious person. She is doing a church camp thing for a week where she helps troubled youth, her reasoning is that this is not cheating ... she's paying me to work for her ... that is her reasoning ... Religious or not, I guess cheating still happens.

Mind you, I think cheaters are caught eventually ... you do somebody's assignment for them, they get great marks, ... the assignment is only one part of the equation, they have a test to sit, lectures and tutorials to attend, discussions to participate in, interviews to sit, auditions to do, it might be easy to cheat one thing ... but it's if you cheat at everything, then you must be an intelligent mastermind (ironic again, since you could have used your talents to actually do the work)
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#1755784 - 09/20/11 02:56 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
....she's a religious person....her reasoning is that this is not cheating ... she's paying me to work for her...

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#1755786 - 09/20/11 03:05 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
wuxia Offline
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Sure I'd do it, society taught me to. Living and working in an eastern european country, ~600 dollars a month for 10 hour wordkays. I wouldn't even think about not doing it. And the thing that gives me the strenght to overcome the moralistic pressure by doing it is the very environment that presented me with the offer in the first place.
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#1755802 - 09/20/11 05:04 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
kevinb Offline
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If only the ethics of this situation were as clear as some people make out.

What, exactly, is the ethical problem here? Dishonesty? Dishonesty by itself isn't necessarily a great evil. If the Nazi stormtroopers have beaten in your front door with their rifle butts, the morally-correct answer to the question 'Are you hiding any Jews in your cellar?' is 'No, absolutely not'. Even by Kant-ian 'categorical imperative' standards this is the right answer.

Suppose my fellow student is in deep financial trouble and has serious family difficulties (or whatever). He asks me to do one of his assignments. If I do it, it will take the pressure off him just enough that he'll be able to stay at University and, all being well, eventually graduate and improve his own lot and that of his family.

Should I refuse, because it's 'dishonest'? I might legitimately refuse because, in the long run, it wouldn't help. But it _might_ help, that's the point.

If there are circumtances in which it would be appropriate to help a student in this way, does it make any difference whether money is involved? And, if so, why? Would it be wrong to accept the money if you would have done it wihout (this is the old 'Mayor Curly' problem -- is it wrong to accept a bribe to make a decision you had already made?). And if it were wrong to accept payment, would it be wrong to do the work in the implicit assumption that (say) the favour might someday be returned?

As Jiminy Cricket said, always let your conscience be your guide. But let it be your guide after due consideration of the facts of each case.

On a practical note, Universities I taught at always made stern pronouncements about harsh penalities for this kind of cheating but, as Kriesler says, it's pretty hard to detect and sanctions were rare. The most flagrant example I saw was a case where someone had directly copied another students work using a photocopier and submitted it with a different name on top. But it was obvious that this had been done because the original was in colour, and the copy in monochrome. And even in that case the students got away with a slight telling-off smirk

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#1755819 - 09/20/11 06:49 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
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The Internet has made cheating easier, but it has also made detection easier. In my experience, university sanctions are not rare, and sometimes they are spectacular (expulsion). Although individual cases are private, the aggregate results of the honor council's work is public.


Quote:
Suppose my fellow student is in deep financial trouble and has serious family difficulties (or whatever). He asks me to do one of his assignments. If I do it, it will take the pressure off him just enough that he'll be able to stay at University and, all being well, eventually graduate and improve his own lot and that of his family.


How do you know all the consequences of your actions for him? You may have just caved in to a person who is a serial cheat. Alternatively, you may have just shown him how easy it is to repeat this process. He then becomes a screw-up who graduates and moves into a position of authority but without a good moral compass. How do you know that you have no other alternatives to help take the pressure off besides setting aside academic honesty rules?

This is not the Nazi jackboot case. There are no obvious life/death consequences of the choice in this case. So, when does ethical choice bleed over into situational ethics of the slippery sort?

To Nannerl: please stop harping on people lecturing you. It's becoming rather a tiresome reverse lecture. You asked a question and people are grappling with it.
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#1755898 - 09/20/11 10:18 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
How do you know that you have no other alternatives to help take the pressure off besides setting aside academic honesty rules?

This is not the Nazi jackboot case. There are no obvious life/death consequences of the choice in this case. So, when does ethical choice bleed over into situational ethics of the slippery sort?


Darned if I know. As an academic I saw all sorts of reasons for cheating -- from what seemed to be out-and-out laziness, to real tear-jerkers. Most culprits were able to offer some sort of mitigation for their actions -- few were bare-faced enough to claim 'it's just capitalism in action'. Some students saw cheating as a kind of rebellion against the system -- those people would probably have succeded the honest way if they'd put as much effort into studying the subject as subverting the rules. Some students were struggling to study in the evening while working and raising a family single-handed. Those folks needed all the breaks they could get, but sometimes didn't realise that official breaks were on offer. All sorts of people, all sorts of reasons.

No, it's not a jackboot case. But when one accepts that some forms of dishonesty are ethically acceptable -- and I suspect most people do -- then the question arises: which ones?

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#1755902 - 09/20/11 10:30 AM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Originally Posted By: kevinb
No, it's not a jackboot case. But when one accepts that some forms of dishonesty are ethically acceptable -- and I suspect most people do -- then the question arises: which ones?


I don't know what you do, but I can assure you schools do things that are a LOT worse (morally and ethically) than copying someone else's homework. I don't even want to start... I really should shut up right NOW. But I just HAD to say that.
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#1755908 - 09/20/11 10:42 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Kreisler]
rocket88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


Reminds me of the old joke:

A man asks a woman he just met to sleep with him for one night, and offers her a million dollars.

She readily accepts, so he then says, "How about a hundred thousand?" and she says, "OK".

Then he says how about twenty dollars? She indignantly replies, "What do you think I am, a prostitute?"

Whereupon he says, "We have already settled that. What we are now doing is negotiating the price."
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#1755911 - 09/20/11 10:45 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
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Loc: Alaska
True, but cheating and aiding a cheat is one of those things a student can directly control. Both parties have full wherewithall to choose something different, and furthermore have pledged to do so. Thus it becomes a fairly straightforward matter.

I managed to make it through all my schooling and college without helping someone cheat on paper, and that includes the times I was so poor I was sleeping on my friends' floor and living out of the back of my old car. It's not as difficult to maintain integrity as one might think, when you are committed to it wink
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#1755919 - 09/20/11 11:08 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
leemax Offline
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rocket88. I thought of the same joke and was going to post it here, but you beat me to it! It kinda fits, though, doesn't it? I think most of us would have our price for many things. There are lots of things I would NOT do for any amount of money, but there are certainly other things that I would not ordinarily do but would do for the right payoff. No need to go into any specifics about deeds or amounts, but don't you think many of us would be the same?


Edited by leemax (09/20/11 11:10 AM)
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#1755928 - 09/20/11 11:29 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Kreisler]
Brendan Offline



Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5285
Loc: McAllen, TX
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Just to be clear, if I were offered $50,000 to write a 10-page essay on the history of the string quartet, I would TOTALLY DO IT.

How's that for honesty? laugh


Sheesh, I would write a 10-page essay on the history of constipation for that amount.
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#1755940 - 09/20/11 11:50 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
DianneB Offline
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Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 89
Quote:
You know it's wrong but would you do it?


As a poor, penniless music student, didn't you sign an agreement of academic honesty/integrity at that college?

If discovered, it could jeopardize both of you when you wish to graduate.

IMHO, you have an interest in this female student that goes beyond writing a paper.

Edited to add: "Don't compromise yourself." Janis Joplin


Edited by DianneB (09/20/11 12:20 PM)

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#1755981 - 09/20/11 01:06 PM Re: Would you? [Re: ChopinAddict]
TheHappyMoron Offline
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Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Maybe I should find another form of self-defense. smile


I hear a gun is good for that sort of thing. grin
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#1756036 - 09/20/11 02:18 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
kevinb Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
I managed to make it through all my schooling and college without helping someone cheat on paper, and that includes the times I was so poor I was sleeping on my friends' floor and living out of the back of my old car. It's not as difficult to maintain integrity as one might think, when you are committed to it wink


As someone who finds life to be an endless source of moral complexity, I find this kind of certainty enviable.

Based on the scant facts at hand, and no information whatever about the personal circumstances of the people involved, I wouldn't have the first clue how to offer even a vague opinion about the ethics of this case.

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#1756039 - 09/20/11 02:30 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
rocket88 Offline
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Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.

If its a do-or-die situation where the student will fail otherwise, then do as Apple suggested, and help the student with another chore so he/she has time, and perhaps help with editing/smoothing out, but it should be the student's body of work you are editing.

If you will starve without the money, go to the local church or shelter and get a meal, and/or offer to do something such as word-processing on the side for students (of their own work).

There is always a way to avoid cheating / lying / stealing.


Edited by rocket88 (09/20/11 03:02 PM)
Edit Reason: clarity
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#1756053 - 09/20/11 03:01 PM Re: Would you? [Re: rocket88]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.

What some of us are saying is that the lines change when we're talking about survival or 'getting by.'

If we're talking about doing it not for survival or getting by, but more for the heck of it, then I'd say it's how you're saying.
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#1756057 - 09/20/11 03:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Diane... Offline
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Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.

What some of us are saying is that the lines change when we're talking about survival or 'getting by.'

If we're talking about doing it not for survival or getting by, but more for the heck of it, then I'd say it's how you're saying.


Kind of reminds me of the President who said,

"I did NOT have sexual relations with THAT woman!"

Everyone will always remember it was Bill Clinton!
In my eyes, HE'LL always be poor!
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#1756074 - 09/20/11 03:46 PM Re: Would you? [Re: rocket88]
kevinb Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.

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#1756083 - 09/20/11 03:59 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
BruceD Online   content
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The implication that morals and ethical standards are dependent upon proscriptive rules and that, by extension, if a rule is not stated any conduct which breaks the (implied) rule is acceptable is beyond my understanding.

In the context of the original question where the arguments of life and death situations were not implied, it is also hard for me to understand the precept that there are varying degrees of cheating, some of which seem to be acceptable to some while others are not; where do such people draw the line? Do they subscribe to the old saw that "it's only cheating if you get caught"?

Regards,
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#1756088 - 09/20/11 04:14 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: kevinb
...The most flagrant example I saw was a case where someone had directly copied another students work using a photocopier and submitted it with a different name on top. But it was obvious that this had been done because the original was in colour, and the copy in monochrome. And even in that case the students got away with a slight telling-off smirk
When I taught high school I sometimes told students that were copying homework "Why not go to the library? There's a new machine there that "copies" homework but in your own handwriting." Several took me seriously.

The reality is that at a typical high school there are hundreds of homework assignments copied at least in part every day.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/20/11 04:25 PM)

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#1756095 - 09/20/11 04:24 PM Re: Would you? [Re: TheHappyMoron]
ChopinAddict Offline
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Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6095
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Originally Posted By: TheCannibalHaddock
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Maybe I should find another form of self-defense. smile


I hear a gun is good for that sort of thing. grin


I'll think about it! laugh

ChopinAddict the GunWoman
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#1756105 - 09/20/11 04:45 PM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
In the context of the original question where the arguments of life and death situations were not implied, it is also hard for me to understand the precept that there are varying degrees of cheating, some of which seem to be acceptable to some while others are not; where do such people draw the line? Do they subscribe to the old saw that "it's only cheating if you get caught"?
I've had some intelligent and very nice students express that opinion. I never understood it. I think the concept of cheating is independent of what one thinks of the ethics involved. No different than trying to say one is innocent of robbing a bank if not caught.

At the school I taught at for 23 years cheating was considered far less of a crime than stealing. Stealing meant automatic expulsion but cheating got several warnings from the administration. Plus the admin would sometimes not support a teacher if the teacher said they saw a student clearly attempting to look at another student's paper during a test. I think they were afraid of lawsuits.

On a geometry test I gave one of the questions required the student to make a diagram illustrating a theorem. The student "cleverly" lettered the diagram so that it contained several obscenities. When I told the student this was inappropriate(thinking that would be the end of the conversation), the student actually repeatedly claimed that his choice of letters was pure chance. He even said the same thing to the dean of students.






Edited by pianoloverus (09/20/11 04:51 PM)

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#1756115 - 09/20/11 05:05 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Loc: New York City
The "funniest" example of a student's cheating I experienced as a teacher occured on a geometry test with a statement-reason proofs. The student who knew how to do the problem had two statements using the same reason. For the second statement he wrote "Same as step 3". The student who did the copying could not read the other student's reason for step 3 so he left the reason blank. But he still copied the "Same as step 3" as a reason for the other statement.

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#1756134 - 09/20/11 05:49 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Registered: 03/11/08
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It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.

If I were not in the same class with the person who request for my service, I would have gone ahead do it. Nothing they can do to me, because I act as a professional essay writer for that person. Isn't this the same kind of service that a professional speech writers provide to their clients?

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#1756138 - 09/20/11 06:12 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.
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#1756143 - 09/20/11 06:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
pianojerome Offline
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When the application asks for an essay written by the applicant, and you submit an essay written by a hired author for the college app, then you're lying when you sign the final page indicating that all of the information is true. (It is not true that you wrote the essay.) That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.
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#1756144 - 09/20/11 06:19 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.

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#1756146 - 09/20/11 06:22 PM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
Damon Offline
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Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6064
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: BruceD
The implication that morals and ethical standards are dependent upon proscriptive rules and that, by extension, if a rule is not stated any conduct which breaks the (implied) rule is acceptable is beyond my understanding.

In the context of the original question where the arguments of life and death situations were not implied, it is also hard for me to understand the precept that there are varying degrees of cheating, some of which seem to be acceptable to some while others are not; where do such people draw the line? Do they subscribe to the old saw that "it's only cheating if you get caught"?

Regards,


Organized sports do teach that the consequence of violating rules are to be weighed against a perceived advantage.
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#1756147 - 09/20/11 06:22 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When someone submits an essay written by a hired author for the college app, one is lying by signing the final page. That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.


It is reality of life.... you'd better aware of this.
If the schools want to ensure that the applicants really write the essay, make them write under supervision like taking CPA test. The schools are not oblivious concerning this matter, therefore, many other variables used to come up with the decision.

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#1756148 - 09/20/11 06:23 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.


It is the student's responsibility to supply reliable facts.

Your last statement is akin to saying: it's ok for people to commit crimes, because it's the police's responsibility to confirm that people aren't breaking the law. Yes, the university has to confirm the facts, but that doesn't give the student the right or the obligation to lie.
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#1756149 - 09/20/11 06:24 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 9868
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When someone submits an essay written by a hired author for the college app, one is lying by signing the final page. That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.


It is reality of life.... you'd better aware of this.
If the schools want to ensure that the applicants really write the essay, make them write under supervision like taking CPA test.


It is a reality of life that people do all sorts of unethical things. That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize such behavior and take action to be sure it doesn't continue.

Perhaps the way to ensure that applicants really write the essay is to teach our children and neighbors to be honest, and to surround them with an academic culture based on honesty.


Edited by pianojerome (09/20/11 06:26 PM)
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#1756150 - 09/20/11 06:26 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.


It is the student's responsibility to supply reliable facts.

Your last statement is akin to saying: it's ok for people to commit crimes, because it's the police's responsibility to confirm that people aren't breaking the law. Yes, the university has to confirm the facts, but that doesn't give the student the right or the obligation to lie.


Go to linkedin, and read some of your coworkers' online resumes. You can see how much they lied in order to make their resumes look outstanding. Fortunately, I am content with my job, so that I do not really need to write a new resume for the last 12 years.

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#1756153 - 09/20/11 06:31 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When someone submits an essay written by a hired author for the college app, one is lying by signing the final page. That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.


It is reality of life.... you'd better aware of this.
If the schools want to ensure that the applicants really write the essay, make them write under supervision like taking CPA test.


It is a reality of life that people do all sorts of unethical things. That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize such behavior and take action to be sure it doesn't continue.

Perhaps the way to ensure that applicants really write the essay is to teach our children and neighbors to be honest, and to surround them with an academic culture based on honesty.


It is definitely NOT in the US Academy entrance process. Young and adult lie to get into good schools. Not to mention people who work also. They do lie about their qualifications. The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out. Many people just do not have the opportunities to show their talents in the past, a little lie is ok, but prove that you can do it.

Look at those amateur piano competitions application forms. Some of them asked for the pieces that one had played in the past. One can just lie left and right. Why don't they just listen to the performance video. It will answer everything.


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#1756154 - 09/20/11 06:34 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.


It is the student's responsibility to supply reliable facts.

Your last statement is akin to saying: it's ok for people to commit crimes, because it's the police's responsibility to confirm that people aren't breaking the law. Yes, the university has to confirm the facts, but that doesn't give the student the right or the obligation to lie.


Go to linkedin, and read some of your coworkers' online resumes. You can see how much they lied in order to make their resumes look outstanding. Fortunately, I am content with my job, so that I do not really need to write a new resume for the last 12 years.


You are correct that many people lie to advance their careers. It is despicable behavior, and I will not lie to advance my career.
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#1756159 - 09/20/11 06:40 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: rocket88
The ethics are very simple...if it is against the school's rules of conduct to turn in work that is not your own, which I am certain it is, then it is wrong to do so, and wrong to be involved in that enterprise.


When did school rules become a moral code? I think I must have missed where they were emblazoned on marble tablets with holy fire smile

For me to conclude that something is unethical, I need a better explanation than 'it's against the rules'. The behaviour described in the OP might be unethical but, if it is, being against the rules is the _result_ of its ethical status, not the _cause_ of it.



It is generally unethical to unilaterally break a written contract with someone. When one begins university studies, he/she has to agree to a written contract to follow all of the rules and codes of the university. By cheating, he's breaking that contract.

By the way, when you submit a college application, you have to sign that all of the information you've submitted is correct to your knowledge. When someone submits an essay written by a hired author for the college app, one is lying by signing the final page. That is also unethical, aside from the fact that it's cheating.


It is reality of life.... you'd better aware of this.
If the schools want to ensure that the applicants really write the essay, make them write under supervision like taking CPA test.


It is a reality of life that people do all sorts of unethical things. That doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize such behavior and take action to be sure it doesn't continue.

Perhaps the way to ensure that applicants really write the essay is to teach our children and neighbors to be honest, and to surround them with an academic culture based on honesty.


It is definitely NOT in the US Academy entrance process. Young and adult lie to get into good schools. Not to mention people who work also. They do lie about their qualifications. The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out. Many people just do not have the opportunities to show their talents in the past, a little lie is ok, but prove that you can do it.

Look at those amateur piano competitions application forms. Some of them asked for the pieces that one had played in the past. One can just lie left and right. Why don't they just listen to the performance video. It will answer everything.



Again, yes, you are right: people lie. That doesn't make it right, just because many people do it. Many people murder, rape, steal -- yes, many people do it. It is unethical and despicable behavior.
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#1756160 - 09/20/11 06:40 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It happens all the times. Many high school students hire professional writer to write their essay to get into good schools. It does not mean that they are not good students. The competition to get into big school names are very fierce. Those kids who apply to big name schools are smart, involve in all kind of activities. One thing that can differentiate them is essay. That is why the essay MUST be great.


The problem is that if the student has hired a writer, then the essay isn't differentiating the student. It's differentiating the writer. In my mind, it's the same as writing false information on your resume - saying that you have such and such experience and such and such awards, when you have none of it. Yes, a school may be very impressed by a made-up resume -- but it says absolutely nothing about the student if it's all made up.


It is the school responsibility to confirm the facts. The main purpose of this admission essay is to make you stand out among all great students applying to these big schools.


It is the student's responsibility to supply reliable facts.

Your last statement is akin to saying: it's ok for people to commit crimes, because it's the police's responsibility to confirm that people aren't breaking the law. Yes, the university has to confirm the facts, but that doesn't give the student the right or the obligation to lie.


Go to linkedin, and read some of your coworkers' online resumes. You can see how much they lied in order to make their resumes look outstanding. Fortunately, I am content with my job, so that I do not really need to write a new resume for the last 12 years.


You are correct that many people lie to advance their careers. It is despicable behavior, and I will not lie to advance my career.


It depends on the situation. If you are in a good position, and you have no desire to further your career, it is stupid to lie to get a better position (it is greedy). Because most likely you will get caught. But if you are jobless, and need to find a job, a little lie is OK, as long as you can show that you are actually able to do it, and more importantly there is no opportunity cost.

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#1756162 - 09/20/11 06:42 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
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Ditto Sam. I can't believe people would justify cheating/lying/falsifying information as part of the 'game'. That is completely despicable. Just because you might get away with it doesn't make it wrong.

But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.
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#1756163 - 09/20/11 06:42 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Originally Posted By: pianojerome

Again, yes, you are right: people lie. That doesn't make it right, just because many people do it. Many people murder, rape, steal -- yes, many people do it. It is unethical and despicable behavior.


More over it is sin! We will pay in the next life.

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#1756166 - 09/20/11 06:51 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
pianojerome Offline
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Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.


The "fuzzy" comes in when absolute values come into conflict with each other, as they often inevitably do. For example, someone earlier brought up a classic example: what if you were hiding innocent Jews, and the Nazis knocked on your door to ask if you are hiding Jews? Then you have a conflict of "absolute truths" -- it is unethical to lie, and it is unethical to cause the death of the innocent, but in this situation you will have to either lie or cause an innocent's death. One might say, "it is not unethical to lie if by doing so you are saving a life" -- but then it is no longer an absolute truth that it is unethical to lie. Then it is a conditional truth. Such moral conflicts are so commonplace; it's part of what makes life (and morality) so complex.
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#1756170 - 09/20/11 06:55 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianojerome Offline
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: pianojerome

Again, yes, you are right: people lie. That doesn't make it right, just because many people do it. Many people murder, rape, steal -- yes, many people do it. It is unethical and despicable behavior.


More over it is sin! We will pay in the next life.


I *also* agree with this statement, which is a separate statement, but that doesn't disprove my previous statement.
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#1756174 - 09/20/11 07:01 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
Ditto Sam. I can't believe people would justify cheating/lying/falsifying information as part of the 'game'. That is completely despicable. Just because you might get away with it doesn't make it wrong.

But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie. I agree that people should not lie. Unfortunately, most people will lie. If the system is designed in a way so that no opportunity for people to lie, we will not have this problem.

For example in piano audition, it is a good system. In an audition, either you can do it or not. Whatever you put in your application means NOTHING.

Writing essay is one of those stupid systems. If they really want to use essay as a measurement, design a process so that it is impossible for people to lie.


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#1756182 - 09/20/11 07:14 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
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I don't disagree with you there! I am a fan of tests and proctored essays for just that reason! Homework is part of the learning process that some may or may not need, but in all but a handful of classes things like homework and attendance should really be an individual responsibility based on what that student needs to learn - not performance indicators or tick-marks to give people a base grade of C if they turn in everything and show up (even if the work quality is sub-par).

Given that the system does allow people to game it if they choose, I can only hope that individual integrity and pride in personal achievement trumps the day. But I am not so foolish as to believe that is the case with a portion of the student body/applicant pool. Thus, at the end of the day I can only account for my own behavior and achievements.
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#1756197 - 09/20/11 07:45 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out.
This is equivalent to those who think that it's not cheating if you don't get caught.

Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Look at those amateur piano competitions application forms. Some of them asked for the pieces that one had played in the past. One can just lie left and right. Why don't they just listen to the performance video. It will answer everything.
What makes you think they don't look at the performance videos? It's perfectly reasonable that the competition would be interested in a pianist's repertoire and listening to their performance tape.

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#1756199 - 09/20/11 07:49 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianoloverus]
pianojerome Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out.
This is equivalent to those who think that it's not cheating if you don't get caught.


No, I think that he knows it's cheating. My understanding is that he thinks cheating is ok on tests and resumes, even if you get caught, as long as you can prove that you are actually capable of getting the real-life job done. His base assumption is that if the school knows you cheated, but you can prove in other ways that you really learned the material and are a stellar performer, then they won't/shouldn't kick you out; and, that even if you passed all the exams, if you can't use the material that you learned, then you won't be successful.

I do agree to a certain extent that actual application/use of learned knowledge/skills is far more important than the exams. But, like you, I don't agree with him that cheating is so broadly justified.


Edited by pianojerome (09/20/11 07:54 PM)
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#1756201 - 09/20/11 07:56 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
... Whatever you put in your application means NOTHING.
If the admissions people agreed with you they would have changed the admission application.


Originally Posted By: Ronald Steinway
Writing essay is one of those stupid systems. If they really want to use essay as a measurement, design a process so that it is impossible for people to lie.
It's not possible to make it impossible for someone one lie either on an applcation or anywhere else.

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#1756209 - 09/20/11 08:17 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
The ultimate test is that when they are in the school or in the company. If they can do what they said they can, it should not be a problem. If not, they will get kicked out.
This is equivalent to those who think that it's not cheating if you don't get caught.


No, I think that he knows it's cheating. My understanding is that he thinks cheating is ok on tests and resumes, even if you get caught, as long as you can prove that you are actually capable of getting the real-life job done. His base assumption is that if the school knows you cheated, but you can prove in other ways that you really learned the material and are a stellar performer, then they won't/shouldn't kick you out; and, that even if you passed all the exams, if you can't use the material that you learned, then you won't be successful.
I think he's talking about proving your knowledge or ability after getting admitted which seems to be a completely different issue then getting admiited in the first place. No college should or would say something like "We know you cheated to get your grades, but we'll accept you anyway in the hope that you may prove you're smart enough to pass your courses at college". A college or an employer can't choose based on what happens in the future after they admit or hire someone.

They can choose on what they think might happen. For example, if a high school senior convinced them they were far more mature about academics then when they goofed off during junior year.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/11 08:24 AM)

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#1756264 - 09/20/11 11:23 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Dara Online   blank
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Off to a great start in school, this in the news today...

A kindergartener in rural Sweet Springs, Missouri, brought a bag of crystal meth and a crack pipe to school for show-and-tell, but an alert teacher kept the boy from sharing his treasure with others at the school, an official said on Tuesday.

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#1756271 - 09/21/11 12:10 AM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It is the system that give people opportunity to lie. I agree that people should not lie. Unfortunately, most people will lie. If the system is designed in a way so that no opportunity for people to lie, we will not have this problem.


Having designed cheat-proof systems for classroom education, I can say that there are a few obstacles.

1) It's extremely difficult. Basically, preventing people from cheating requires constant observation. Especially in the age of smart phones, this is incredibly difficult. It took three of us to effectively manage a class of 75 people during in-class assignments and exams.

2) It's demoralizing. These systems send a clear message: "We do not trust you." It's a horrible message to send to those who really do approach their lives with integrity. It can also be a self-fulfilling prophecy - expect someone to cheat, and they will.

3) It acknowledges that cheating is part of the culture. And once cheating is part of the regular culture, people start to use that as justification for cheating. We've actually seen that in this thread: "Everyone else is, so I have to in order to not look stupid."

4) Even in auditions, it's very difficult. Let's say two pianists play Beethoven Op. 10#2 at roughly the same level of proficiency. It's entirely possible that for Pianist #1, this is the first Beethoven sonata he's learned, and he's been playing it for two years. He can't sight-read at all, doesn't have a disciplined practice schedule, has a weak theory background, and his social skills are lacking. But for Pianist #2, this is his 3rd Beethoven sonata, he has a well-rounded repertoire, good theory skills, is self-directed when it comes to practicing, and he's a joy to work with. He practices more efficiently, and is able to accomplish in 2 hours what the other accomplishes in 3.

But the audition committee only hears Beethoven Op. 10/2 on one day. It's entirely possible that Pianist #1 had a good night's sleep and played well. He also had a new suit and looked very "put together." But Pianist #2 had a bad flight, decided to skip ironing his clothes to grab an extra 30 minutes of sleep because he didn't get in until 2am, and his audition time was right after lunch.

So yes, auditions are "honest" in that a person can't fake good technique or musicianship, but auditions paint a very incomplete picture of a person's development. And when you're thinking about a career in music, how well you play is only a part of what will make you successful.
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#1756282 - 09/21/11 12:30 AM Re: Would you? [Re: pianojerome]
Ferdinand Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianojerome
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.


The "fuzzy" comes in when absolute values come into conflict with each other, as they often inevitably do. For example, someone earlier brought up a classic example: what if you were hiding innocent Jews, and the Nazis knocked on your door to ask if you are hiding Jews? Then you have a conflict of "absolute truths" -- it is unethical to lie, and it is unethical to cause the death of the innocent, but in this situation you will have to either lie or cause an innocent's death. One might say, "it is not unethical to lie if by doing so you are saving a life" -- but then it is no longer an absolute truth that it is unethical to lie. Then it is a conditional truth. Such moral conflicts are so commonplace; it's part of what makes life (and morality) so complex.

The example you give is not a compelling illustration of your point. Who would postulate in the first place that lying is absolutely unethical?
A less artificial case is Huckleberry Finn's predicament when his conscience reminds him it is a sin to steal property, so he decides to hand over the slave he has been helping run away to freedom. But his natural human sympathetic nature rebels against betraying his friend.

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#1756286 - 09/21/11 12:37 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Mark_C Offline
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Something that I don't think has been mentioned (although I haven't read every post thoroughly, so maybe I missed it) -- and which IMO blows a lot of the criticism of "maybe I would" out of the water:

What about all the students who have assignments done by THEIR PARENTS?

It's a lot. I know that it was a lot back in my day, including for some of the most outstanding students, and I admit occasionally (not often!) for me -- never entirely, but on a couple of occasions, mostly. I didn't know at the time that other students had this done, but I remember that later on, I heard from mutual friends that this happened for some kids, and as I looked back at some of what they put out, I realized it couldn't possibly have been done by them at the time.

To those of you who have expressed indignation at the "Maybe I would" idea: Do you have equal indignation about this other thing, which happens a lot? If not, why not? Because the parents aren't getting paid for it? Well, they sort of are, because if their kid does better in school, he/she has a better chance to get scholarships, which leaves the parents less in a position to have to contribute to the payment for the education.

I'm not saying this makes it OK to go ahead and write someone's paper for money, just that this is another thing that shows it's not as simple as many of you are saying. One way of looking at it, I would suggest, is that a student who doesn't have parents right there who might write his assignments for him is at an unfair disadvantage if he just follows the rules that you're saying are so simple.

I await the flames. smile
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#1756294 - 09/21/11 12:54 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
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In the sense that Mark is talking about, Mozart cheated a lot on his early compositions, which were pretty much written by his daddy or mostly copied from other composers.
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#1756301 - 09/21/11 01:23 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Arctic_Mama Offline
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I can only speak for myself - my parent never, ever did my homework, in whole or part. Even as far back as phonics lessons in kinder and first grade, my mother would do an example and show the learning process for the skill, then have me demonstrate on the homework problems. If she had to 'do one' to show me better, she'd pick a problem and either modify part of it or use an entirely off-sheet example to show me again, before having me try. Doing part of my homework and claiming it was me didn't a) teach me the basic objective of the assignment (which is the only reason FOR homework) and b) was dishonest, passing a skill off as mine that I didn't have.

So yeah, I work at being consistent and have as long as I can remember. As a homeschooling mom I am really sensitive to this, because it IS easy to 'over help' and end up doing an assignment rather than teaching, but it is entirely avoidable. And yes, I consider a parent doing an assignment for a kid cheating. As I said, I'm black and white like that.


But enough with the hypotheticals, I'm pretty sure I answered the question and then tromped on the horse carcass a few times, so I'm out of this one smile
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#1756302 - 09/21/11 01:25 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
....I'm pretty sure I answered the question and then tromped on the horse carcass a few times, so I'm out of this one smile

Don't feel that you have to stick to that. grin
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#1756310 - 09/21/11 01:58 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Kreisler]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Kreisler
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
It is the system that give people opportunity to lie. I agree that people should not lie. Unfortunately, most people will lie. If the system is designed in a way so that no opportunity for people to lie, we will not have this problem.


Having designed cheat-proof systems for classroom education, I can say that there are a few obstacles.

1) It's extremely difficult. Basically, preventing people from cheating requires constant observation. Especially in the age of smart phones, this is incredibly difficult. It took three of us to effectively manage a class of 75 people during in-class assignments and exams.

2) It's demoralizing. These systems send a clear message: "We do not trust you." It's a horrible message to send to those who really do approach their lives with integrity. It can also be a self-fulfilling prophecy - expect someone to cheat, and they will.

3) It acknowledges that cheating is part of the culture. And once cheating is part of the regular culture, people start to use that as justification for cheating. We've actually seen that in this thread: "Everyone else is, so I have to in order to not look stupid."

4) Even in auditions, it's very difficult. Let's say two pianists play Beethoven Op. 10#2 at roughly the same level of proficiency. It's entirely possible that for Pianist #1, this is the first Beethoven sonata he's learned, and he's been playing it for two years. He can't sight-read at all, doesn't have a disciplined practice schedule, has a weak theory background, and his social skills are lacking. But for Pianist #2, this is his 3rd Beethoven sonata, he has a well-rounded repertoire, good theory skills, is self-directed when it comes to practicing, and he's a joy to work with. He practices more efficiently, and is able to accomplish in 2 hours what the other accomplishes in 3.

But the audition committee only hears Beethoven Op. 10/2 on one day. It's entirely possible that Pianist #1 had a good night's sleep and played well. He also had a new suit and looked very "put together." But Pianist #2 had a bad flight, decided to skip ironing his clothes to grab an extra 30 minutes of sleep because he didn't get in until 2am, and his audition time was right after lunch.

So yes, auditions are "honest" in that a person can't fake good technique or musicianship, but auditions paint a very incomplete picture of a person's development. And when you're thinking about a career in music, how well you play is only a part of what will make you successful.


You do not know how to write good questions then. If you write questions requiring a thorough understanding of a certain subject matter, it is hard to cheat. Even an open book exam will become very difficult.

You need only one person to ensure none of the students work together. There are several ways to reduce the chance for them to work together, (1)increase the numbers of questions so that everybody will under pressure to finish their test. Therefore, the good students have no time to help others. (2) Use exactly the same questions, but scramble the numbers, so that there will be less chance that the students who sit next to each other will have the same sequence of questions. It is hard to work together if the sequence of the questions is not the same.

Cheating can only become a culture if the schools or the professors do not have a system to prevent them from doing so. It is human nature to not working hard if they do not have to. If the schools or the professors are strict concerning this cheating thing, no student will dare to do this. Little kids are afraid of cheating in general, but teenagers will most likely cheat if they have the opportunity to do so.

About the audition, it is very unlikely people who are lacking in all aspects of music like what you described will be able to beat your Pianist No.2 who has well rounded musical knowledge.

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#1756314 - 09/21/11 02:10 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nikolas Online   content
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Kreisler: It just so happens that I was discussing the audition system with a violinist friend last night (while eating a chocolate souffle! YUMMY! :D)

Here's part of the discussion that went on:

Her: Auditions can be unfair. I already knew the committee and they just hired me because they knew me!
Me: Yes, but you deserved to be there, you're awesome (truly she is)...
Her: Yes, but it remains unfair to everyone. Plus if they didn't know me (ergo I wasn't with them for a couple of years), I wold probably be spending my time studying thus I would be better. Bottom line is that the audition will NOT get you the best performer!
Me: Well yes of course! But a professional needs to have many more skills than just be a great performer and for all those years you passed the audition. They knew who you were and they liked working with you, apart from knowing that you ARE great.
Her: Still they have no way of knowing if other people were great with the violin but also great working with them! They missed the opportunity not because they missed any skills, but because I had tons of more time to get to persuade these people how much better I was!

And thus she persuaded me that sometimes, just sometimes, even the auditions are not 'honest'.

Then again I do know that I hire people I know for getting the job done. Not because they are the absolute best, but because I know them, we have established a communication channel, trust each other, etc... And this means a lot in the business world!

If a computer games company hires me to do their third game, after having worked with them in the previous two, does this mean I somehow cheated the competition? Or that it's just natural for this to happen? If I decide to pay Kreisler, or Joe, or Mark to get me a recording (random example of people, I have NOT contacted any of them for such reasons), would it be unfair to everyone else?

Not too far off the cheating process I think...
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#1756356 - 09/21/11 03:50 AM Re: Would you? [Re: BruceD]
kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
In the context of the original question where the arguments of life and death situations were not implied, it is also hard for me to understand the precept that there are varying degrees of cheating, some of which seem to be acceptable to some while others are not;


That's because the word 'cheating' carries the implicit meaning 'wrong'. So asking when cheating might not be wrongdoing amounts to asking why wrongdoing might not be wrongdoing. The question is loaded to produce the answer you expect.

Try asking the same question in entirely neutral language. You might still get the same answer, but at least you'll be getting the answer on the basis of moral reasoning and not because somebody's behaviour happens to match a word template.

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#1756362 - 09/21/11 04:13 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Arctic_Mama]
kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
But I also believe in moral absolutes and absolute truth (and thus, the converse). I don't do 'fuzzy' on personal ethics. There are surprisingly few grey areas when it really gets down to it, but seemingly infinite things people will try to justify. I don't personally live that way if I can at all help it,.


I also tend to moral absolutism and yet I disagree utterly with your statement about 'grey areas'. There may be moral absolutes, but that doesn't mean that they can be applied in a cookie-cutter way without consideration of the deep principles that underly your moral code.

It might be wrong, for example to steal. But why? What is it that make it wrong? And, whatever it is, will that something have to be found in every situation that we attach the label 'stealing' to? Children continue to admire folk heros like Robin Hood because they stole for what are perceived to be the best of motives.

The grey areas arise not because of 'fuzziness on personal ethics', but because even cast-iron, absolute moral principles frequently come into conflict with one another. It's possible to go through life closing one's mind to this basic observation about the human condition but only, I imagine, with considerable effort.

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#1756365 - 09/21/11 04:22 AM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
stores Offline
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie.



Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!
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#1756367 - 09/21/11 04:24 AM Re: Would you? [Re: stores]
Nikolas Online   content
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Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie.



Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!
I Agree SO MUCH with this! I'm so tired of all the complaint and the ability of a lot of people to skip the personal responsibility. They just feel it's someone elses' fault and nobody seems to feel the need to better themselves!

And this is coming from your local member from Greece so you can imagine the situation here (and the hatred towards the government and the EMF, etc...)


Edited by Nikolas (09/21/11 04:25 AM)
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#1756423 - 09/21/11 07:28 AM Re: Would you? [Re: DianneB]
Nannerl Mozart Offline
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Originally Posted By: DianneB
Quote:
You know it's wrong but would you do it?


As a poor, penniless music student, didn't you sign an agreement of academic honesty/integrity at that college?

If discovered, it could jeopardize both of you when you wish to graduate.

IMHO, you have an interest in this female student that goes beyond writing a paper.

Edited to add: "Don't compromise yourself." Janis Joplin


HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thank you Freud, I posted this out of curiosity to how people would respond. I said no flatly, offered help for nothing because I'm her friend. Oh and I'm a girl, and not a lesbian, if that was what you were suggesting ... we're friends, I feel some sympathy and a bit of empathy, it was hard for me when I started uni - I have so clueless to how to reference and write.

This has turned into a very interesting post and discussion ... the ending was pretty good actually. I said no continuously and now she's giving it a go, she just asked me if I can proof read and edit for her. smile
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#1756426 - 09/21/11 07:34 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie.



Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!
I Agree SO MUCH with this! I'm so tired of all the complaint and the ability of a lot of people to skip the personal responsibility. They just feel it's someone elses' fault and nobody seems to feel the need to better themselves!


Maybe.... but this is something I'm rather uneasy about. It's easy to say 'don't blame the system' when I'm one of those people whom 'the system' most favours -- white, middle-class professionals from white, middle-class families.

I used to teach in colleges in the slum areas of North London (you know, where the riots were :/), and many of the students I dealt with had to fight 'the system' all the way. Often they were extremely poor black and asian people, often from first-generation immigrant families. They frequently didn't speak English all that well, and had no family history of education beyond primary school. Frequently they didn't understand English culture and the (mostly English, white, middle-class) staff frequently didn't understand them. They didn't know or understand many of the unwritten conventions about how educational works in the UK. They didn't, and couldn't, use middle-class professional language in their written work, and this created a bad impression among people who have a dogmatic idea about what academic writing should like like. And so on.

And yet some of these folks flogged themselves into the ground to get an education. I had students who would study all day and then work all night. I had students bring their young families to classes because, well, because what else would they do with them? Some had families who were still living in the old country, in conditions of war and famine.

It must have been ten times harder for some of these people to get along in education than it was for me, and will be (I hope) for my children. Many of them failed; many blamed the system. But if you've worked and worked and worked and still failed, what else do you blame?

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#1756509 - 09/21/11 10:40 AM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Nikolas Online   content
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Question to mods: This is one of the greater threads in PW. But it's quickly turning rather political/social... Can we carry on for this case, please?

Before I post...

(PS. I was going to reply to Kevin, but decided to check first. Thank you)
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#1756530 - 09/21/11 11:16 AM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
You do not know how to write good questions then. If you write questions requiring a thorough understanding of a certain subject matter, it is hard to cheat. Even an open book exam will become very difficult.
It sounds like you're talking about essay questions(otherwise the difficulty is irrelevant in terms of cheating). But teachers have limited time to grade papers so tests that are exclusively essay questions are highly impractical.

Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
You need only one person to ensure none of the students work together. There are several ways to reduce the chance for them to work together, (1)increase the numbers of questions so that everybody will under pressure to finish their test. Therefore, the good students have no time to help others. (2) Use exactly the same questions, but scramble the numbers, so that there will be less chance that the students who sit next to each other will have the same sequence of questions. It is hard to work together if the sequence of the questions is not the same.
Although scrambling the order of questions may help and I've known a few teachers that did that, this poses other problems. There are four answer keys to make out to start with. There still may be a student with the same version within eyesight of a student who wants to cheat. Your suggestion making the test so long that the students will be under greater pressure to finish would result in some students not finishing the test.[/quote]

Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
About the audition, it is very unlikely people who are lacking in all aspects of music like what you described will be able to beat your Pianist No.2 who has well rounded musical knowledge.
Your reply ignored much of what Kreisler said about other conditions that might cause a student to do a poor audition.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/11 11:17 AM)

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#1756543 - 09/21/11 11:32 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Some posters may not be aware of the extreme pressure to do well for some high school students today(especially perhaps those in elite urban private schools).

An extreme example would be the case around 5-10 years ago of a terrific in every way NYC private school student who committed suicide by jumping out of the school window afer being caught cheating by a teacher. This was not a student who regularly cheated on tests.

I bring this up to point out that "everybody does it" is not always the rationale used by students for cheating.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/11 11:33 AM)

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#1756549 - 09/21/11 11:41 AM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
jotur Online   blank
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Originally Posted By: kevinb
Maybe.... but this is something I'm rather uneasy about. It's easy to say 'don't blame the system' when I'm one of those people whom 'the system' most favours -- white, middle-class professionals from white, middle-class families.

I used to teach in colleges in the slum areas of North London (you know, where the riots were :/), and many of the students I dealt with had to fight 'the system' all the way. Often they were extremely poor black and asian people, often from first-generation immigrant families. They frequently didn't speak English all that well, and had no family history of education beyond primary school. Frequently they didn't understand English culture and the (mostly English, white, middle-class) staff frequently didn't understand them. They didn't know or understand many of the unwritten conventions about how educational works in the UK. They didn't, and couldn't, use middle-class professional language in their written work, and this created a bad impression among people who have a dogmatic idea about what academic writing should like like. And so on.

And yet some of these folks flogged themselves into the ground to get an education. I had students who would study all day and then work all night. I had students bring their young families to classes because, well, because what else would they do with them? Some had families who were still living in the old country, in conditions of war and famine.

It must have been ten times harder for some of these people to get along in education than it was for me, and will be (I hope) for my children. Many of them failed; many blamed the system. But if you've worked and worked and worked and still failed, what else do you blame?



This.

I've taught in similar circumstances. Exhaustion from dealing with acoholic/abusive spouses (and, yes, males and females can be abusive) and the emotional habits that lead to that, minimum-wage jobs that won't accomodate school class schedules, disabled children and no place for child care, PTSD from several wars ago, any number of hidden stresses that we may not know about, can lead to behavior we might not otherwise condone in ourselves. Besides the fact that, as far as I can tell, all of us have at some time or another, gotten a break that wasn't "earned" at that moment. Nikolas gave good examples of circumstances when having a history with someone can help a current performance be forgiven if it isn't quite up to snuff.

Did I, when I caught blatant copying on tests or homework, fail the copiers on that particular task? Yes, I did. But it's hard for me to make blanket statements about right and wrong. In the circumstances in the OP I, too, would have said no and offered to help in other ways. But I also have given tests with extra time, allowed head phones to block out distractions (including internal ones), counted homework more than tests for some people, and made other accomodations for people. It's a real balancing act, and I don't think it's a human possibility to always get it right. I know some specific times when I didn't.

So my moral absolutes aren't very task specific laugh They are more like, always do the best you can given the knowledge you have and the situation you are in.

Cathy
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#1756577 - 09/21/11 12:29 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Diane... Offline
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If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin
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#1756626 - 09/21/11 01:31 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Diane...]
kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile

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#1756628 - 09/21/11 01:40 PM Re: Would you? [Re: pianoloverus]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
It sounds like you're talking about essay questions(otherwise the difficulty is irrelevant in terms of cheating). But teachers have limited time to grade papers so tests that are exclusively essay questions are highly impractical.


Not necessarily, you can write multiple choice questions that can be answered only if you totally understand the topics.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Although scrambling the order of questions may help and I've known a few teachers that did that, this poses other problems. There are four answer keys to make out to start with. There still may be a student with the same version within eyesight of a student who wants to cheat. Your suggestion making the test so long that the students will be under greater pressure to finish would result in some students not finishing the test.


It does not need to be long, the test can be short but the students must utilize all of the time that they have, don't let them have enough time to do something else.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Your reply ignored much of what Kreisler said about other conditions that might cause a student to do a poor audition.
Because he made up unrealistic conditions.

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#1756632 - 09/21/11 01:43 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Diane... Offline
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Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile


My main point is that I'd rather have a brain surgeon operate on me who had done the hard work himself then a brain surgeon who "cheated"!
Just saying! grin
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#1756635 - 09/21/11 01:44 PM Re: Would you? [Re: stores]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Originally Posted By: stores


Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!


It is apparent that you do not live in a real world.

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#1756639 - 09/21/11 01:47 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Diane...]
RonaldSteinway Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile


My main point is that I'd rather have a brain surgeon operate on me who had done the hard work himself then a brain surgeon who "cheated"!
Just saying! grin


People who can finish medical school cannot be stupid. They did not just take one test to become a doctor. They must be smart if they can cheat their way to becoming a doctor. Stupid people cannot even cheat well! It is not ethical to cheat, but for sure they are not dumb.

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#1756648 - 09/21/11 02:05 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: kevinb
As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile

Interesting that you were. I was too, and I don't mean just as a recipient. smile
And a lot of what I dealt with was stuff like what you said - to try to help get rid of what many of us considered nonsense like that. It sounds like you're proud that the grades were so low and that nobody got "97%." But I think it's just a bad comment on the nature of those tests.

We would all like to believe (and I can assure people that this is true, IMO of course) that the low marks didn't mean the students didn't know enough. What it meant was (IMO) that the tests asked things we didn't really need to know.

Right? smile

Because if not, it means none of the students knew enough of what was necessary, which in turn meant the schools were doing a lousy job of teaching what the students really needed to know, and I'm sure you wouldn't say that. smile

What's the sense of testing medical students on stuff they don't need to know? I can see the value of things like that in fields that are mainly academic, but in something like medicine, what we really want to know is, do the students and doctors know what they need to? IMO tests like that should require almost a perfect score in order to pass -- but they shouldn't include carap that the people don't need to know.

Back in the day I was in the groups that worked on modifying the MCAT and National Board Exams to try to make them more "relevant." Did it work? The former, I think not much. On the latter, I think quite a bit. Tests at individual schools are up to each school, but often they're geared toward the National Board exams, and so I'd guess that now, the schools' exams tend to be not as much like what you said. I hope so anyway.
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#1756652 - 09/21/11 02:11 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
It sounds like you're talking about essay questions(otherwise the difficulty is irrelevant in terms of cheating). But teachers have limited time to grade papers so tests that are exclusively essay questions are highly impractical.

Not necessarily, you can write multiple choice questions that can be answered only if you totally understand the topics.


Yes and copying the answers to hard multiple choice questions is no more difficult than copying easier ones.

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Although scrambling the order of questions may help and I've known a few teachers that did that, this poses other problems. There are four answer keys to make out to start with. There still may be a student with the same version within eyesight of a student who wants to cheat. Your suggestion making the test so long that the students will be under greater pressure to finish would result in some students not finishing the test.

It does not need to be long, the test can be short but the students must utilize all of the time that they have, don't let them have enough time to do something else.



If a test is short it's a quiz. The difficulty in copying a non essay question answer has nothing to do with how long it takes to complete a test. A student whose paper is being copied doesn't need time to "do anything else".

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Your reply ignored much of what Kreisler said about other conditions that might cause a student to do a poor audition.
Because he made up unrealistic conditions.


I guess he wouldn't know since he teaches college and I suspect has judged many auditions.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/21/11 02:15 PM)

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#1756660 - 09/21/11 02:22 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Quote:
The grey areas arise not because of 'fuzziness on personal ethics', but because even cast-iron, absolute moral principles frequently come into conflict with one another. It's possible to go through life closing one's mind to this basic observation about the human condition but only, I imagine, with considerable effort.


I agree with this completely.

I think most of us would want to know something about each situation before we apply sanctions or make rigid judgments. Who wants to defend Javert? "Off with their heads" is not always the right judgment.

On the other hand, situational ethics can easily be a slippery slope into an abdication of personal responsibility (either of person engaging in the potentially unethical action, or for the people responsible for punishing the action).

For this reason, lines like this one from RonaldSteinway trouble me deeply.

Quote:
If I were not in the same class with the person who request for my service, I would have gone ahead do it. Nothing they can do to me,


All I can say is that I think your sense of what is ethical and my sense of what is ethical are almost orthogonal.
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#1756663 - 09/21/11 02:25 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Nikolas Online   content
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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile


My main point is that I'd rather have a brain surgeon operate on me who had done the hard work himself then a brain surgeon who "cheated"!
Just saying! grin


People who can finish medical school cannot be stupid. They did not just take one test to become a doctor. They must be smart if they can cheat their way to becoming a doctor. Stupid people cannot even cheat well! It is not ethical to cheat, but for sure they are not dumb.
Hem...

Being a doctor has little to do with being clever/stupid. Robots can do surgery but they are moronically stupid by human standards! grin

The idea is simple (what Diane meant I think): If someone gets 60% on a medical test, this means that they do NOT know the other 40%... which seems important, doesn't it?

BTW, my father was a cardiology professor in Greece (he's retired now), and he mentioned that the fail % in medicine was somewhere around 60-65% and not 50%- as mentioned here...
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#1756664 - 09/21/11 02:25 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....All I can say is that I think your sense of what is ethical and my sense of what is ethical are almost orthogonal.

Aren't you going off at sort of a right angle there? grin
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#1756665 - 09/21/11 02:26 PM Re: Would you? [Re: RonaldSteinway]
Kreisler Offline



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Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Because he made up unrealistic conditions.


Extreme, but not unrealistic. What I said was based on a number of true stories from my 7 years as a university professor. We admitted students with great auditions who turned out to have all kinds of problems, and we took chances on students with weak auditions who turned out to be quite successful.
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#1756666 - 09/21/11 02:26 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
....If someone gets 60% on a medical test, this means that they do NOT know the other 40%... which seems important, doesn't it?....

Seems, yes. Is, no. See my earlier post. smile
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#1756667 - 09/21/11 02:28 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....All I can say is that I think your sense of what is ethical and my sense of what is ethical are almost orthogonal.

Aren't you going off at sort of a right angle there? grin


Indeed! Just wanted to see if anybody understood that term in a sentence. smile
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#1756669 - 09/21/11 02:29 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Kreisler Offline



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And on the subject of medical eduction, yes, students can (and do) cheat on their med school exams. It happens.

BUT...before you can be licensed, you have to go through three rounds of exams that are rigorously proctored (the USMLE Step exams) and at least three years of residency during which your work is observed by attending physicians. And that doesn't include exams for board certification in various specialities, which can require anywhere from 2-10 additional years and extra exams.

Work ethic and attitude is a much bigger problem in the medical field than knowledge issues.
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#1756670 - 09/21/11 02:29 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
Mark_C Offline
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....Just wanted to see if anybody understood that term in a sentence. smile

.....and I expect you to be keeping score! ha
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#1756687 - 09/21/11 02:56 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Mark_C Offline
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P.S. about the medical school tests.....maybe to shed more light on those low passing grades, but mainly because I think it's pretty much a hoot....

Back in the day, and maybe still, but I sure hope not ha many of those tests went through a fad in their format. A lot of the questions would give 4 "statements" and then the question would be something like this

".....Choose A if 1,2 and 3 are true
Choose B if only 1 and 3 are true
Choose C if 2 and 4 are true
Choose D if only 4 is true
Choose E if none are true" (or maybe it was if "all" are true, I'm not sure)

So, in order to get it right, you needed to know 4 things. It didn't differentiate between someone who knew 3 out of the 4 things, or none; you got 0 either way. And very often, one of the things was either a very small point, or sort of "trick" -- you couldn't necessarily tell how it was meant and you could argue it either way -- but the question depended on it. If you knew all the main things but couldn't guess right on the arcane thing, you got no credit.

I think the person who came up with that format might have been on drugs. ha Why the establishment went along with it for a long time, I can't explain. And as you can see, I'm still both traumatized by it and laughing my arse off over it. grin
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#1756759 - 09/21/11 04:56 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Musicfan1979 Offline
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Wow!!! The one answer that stuck with me was the post with the recording of the transaction on the android and placing it on YouTube. This should be a warning to all you students on PW. Wow! Just think.... If you ask someone to write your paper, you may be on YouTube or paying the blackmailer until you graduate! So... Write your own papers! And... Never write someone else's for them.

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#1756801 - 09/21/11 05:52 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
casinitaly Offline

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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
....Just wanted to see if anybody understood that term in a sentence. smile

.....and I expect you to be keeping score! ha


Well, I confess, I had to look it up!
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#1756846 - 09/21/11 07:10 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Nikolas]
Kuanpiano Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway
Originally Posted By: Diane...
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Diane...
If I have to have brain surgery I think I'm hoping that the brain surgeon got a 97 on his papers & exams & not a 67!!!!

And I'm sure hoping he didn't "cheat"! grin


As a person who was involved in medical education for some years, I have to say that I would have been impressed with a medical student who got 67% in one of my exams, and gobsmacked if anybody got 97%. The pass mark for university medical exams was 40-50%, as it was for most other subjects.

You might like to thing about that as you're preparing yourself for surgery smile


My main point is that I'd rather have a brain surgeon operate on me who had done the hard work himself then a brain surgeon who "cheated"!
Just saying! grin


People who can finish medical school cannot be stupid. They did not just take one test to become a doctor. They must be smart if they can cheat their way to becoming a doctor. Stupid people cannot even cheat well! It is not ethical to cheat, but for sure they are not dumb.
Hem...

Being a doctor has little to do with being clever/stupid. Robots can do surgery but they are moronically stupid by human standards! grin

The idea is simple (what Diane meant I think): If someone gets 60% on a medical test, this means that they do NOT know the other 40%... which seems important, doesn't it?

BTW, my father was a cardiology professor in Greece (he's retired now), and he mentioned that the fail % in medicine was somewhere around 60-65% and not 50%- as mentioned here...

Depends on your program...for what I'm doing, a 65% average is required to keep going on, but to gain entry into my program, everybody had a 90+ average in high school. The result is near-impossible exams which break up this group of students a wide range of marks again. I've had exams where the standard deviation was over 30 percent, where some people got 100s, and others, just above 10%...

So yeah, standards vary across schools. Though it seems for me, at least at my school, that every prof would rather fail everybody, make a huge mark distribution, and then adjust all of the marks back to a normal (65-70% average), than give an exam which results in an 80% average overall.
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#1757075 - 09/22/11 02:48 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
kevinb Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
....If someone gets 60% on a medical test, this means that they do NOT know the other 40%... which seems important, doesn't it?....

Seems, yes. Is, no. See my earlier post. smile


Testing in UK higher education traditionally works on the basis that a reasonably competent, reasonably diligent student will score 50-60% on exams. The tests are set so as to deliver those figures. That is, we set tests so that competent people will score just over half marks.

Traditionally, the situation in medical education was just slightly different, in that degrees were not graded as they were in other subjects. I presume that's because it would undermine public confidence if they knew their doctors were graded 'lower second class'. But 'lower second class' is, and always has been, academic-speak for 'basic competence'.

These days many medical students combine their traditional clinical education with a science degree so that they, too, can graduate second-class.

The testing system is designed to put basic competence in about the middle of the scoring range (i.e., halfway between nothing and full marks). That way there's room for the exceptional candidates to demonstrate their prowess. If the pass mark was 90%, there would be little to distinguish the basically competent entrant from the genius.

I'm not defending the system -- just pointing out why it is the way it is.

And, as Kreisler says, we don't emply doctors, or anybody else, on the basis of test scores alone.

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#1757100 - 09/22/11 04:44 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
polyphasicpianist Offline
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Just to play Devil's Advocate, I would have to say that the ethical violation lies with the student offering to hand in the paper under the false assumption that they wrote it - you (as the ghost writer) are not lying to anyone, they are. You are nothing more than a ghost writer. It is none of your concern what they do or don't do with the paper, because once you take the money and hand over the paper, it no longer belongs to you, i.e. it's not your responsibility.

Here is an analogy: If a person buys a car from a dealership and then uses this car to intentionally kill somebody, it is illogical to blame the dealership. Unless, the person buying the car informed the dealer they were going to use it as a murder weapon.

So, as I see it, the only way this business of writing the person's paper could be considered un-ethical is if the behaviour of lying to the professor actually hurts other people.

Now, clearly the professor is not going to be hurt by this lie (assuming he does not find out about it), so I don't think that is really a issue. However, if, for instance, the person's grade is curved among other student's grades, then (assuming the paper you write results in them getting a higher grade than they would have got had they written it) the other student's grades will drop unjustly. This would be un-ethical. However, if the grade this person receives is in no way contingent upon the grade of anyone else, then I see no ethical violation on the part of you, the ghost writer.

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#1757110 - 09/22/11 06:26 AM Re: Would you? [Re: stores]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7753
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: RonaldSteinway


It is the system that give people opportunity to lie.



Blah, blah, blah! Liars create their own opportunities. I'm so sick of hearing people come up with excuses for this, that and the other! It's the systems fault...it's my parents fault...it's societies fault. B.S.!!!!! It's YOUR fault!


It's "YOUR" fault only if you have 100% control over your DNA, your upbringing, your social matrix, the times you live in, etc. etc. etc.

As it happens, I never cheated in school and never helped anyone else cheat, nor have I ever been dishonest on job applications or in interviews. I have fought difficult moral battles in a big corporation. I don't cheat on taxes and I don't tell lies to get ahead. I have never shoplifted so much as a paper clip. I even try to avoid the "little white lies" commonly used as social expedients.

But I am not so egotistical and stupid as to imagine that all this honesty is a result of some kind of wonderful sense of personal responsibility on my part. It isn't. It's a result of many factors, none of which are my own doing. I am pretty sure that just a few slight changes in the variables that resulted in the "me" I am today could have turned me into almost the opposite of who I am, i.e., turned me into a lying cheating criminal, and again, in a way totally beyond my own control.

Having a well-developed sense of personal responsibility for oneself is important, if for no other reason than it is good mental hygiene. But pretending that each of us is some wholly self-determined island of responsibility in the world is ludicrous, IMO.

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#1757116 - 09/22/11 06:46 AM Re: Would you? [Re: wr]
kevinb Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
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Originally Posted By: wr
But I am not so egotistical and stupid as to imagine that all this honesty is a result of some kind of wonderful sense of personal responsibility on my part. It isn't. It's a result of many factors, none of which are my own doing.


Well, I'm sure there are a few things you can reasonably take credit for wink

But, in general, I agree wholeheartedly. We all do the best we can within the limitations of our environment and genetics.

Those of us who have always worked hard, played fair, etc., very easily fall into the trap of assuming that we have no-one or nothing else to thank for our successes. It's easy to lose lose sight of the influence of blind chance, grace, or fate (according to your worldview) on the kind of person you are. I was very lucky to start my educational life with all the advantages one can possibly have. I'm not about to start rubbishing people without knowing what kind of shitty hand they may have been dealt.

I could go further and say that the entire political ideology of the Western world is founded on the entirely incorrect belief that we make ourselves what we are. But that, perhaps, is even more of a tangent than we need.

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#1757130 - 09/22/11 07:40 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Quote:
It's "YOUR" fault only if you have 100% control over your DNA, your upbringing, your social matrix, the times you live in, etc. etc. etc.


Sounds to me like a counsel of despair .... or a bit of good old-fashioned Calvinist predestination. grin

Even if we do NOT have 100% control, and only an egotistical fool would think that they did, there is a lot of mileage in behaving as though you do. This is where personal responsibility becomes a social as well as personal virtue.

If you rationalize that it's just fine to sell your papers, knowing full well what they will be used for, you have abdicated personal responsibility for a few pieces of silver. Poor choice, as far as I'm concerned.
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#1757146 - 09/22/11 08:09 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Nikolas Online   content
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Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5212
Loc: Europe
Ok.

For the sensetive ones, it's better NOT to click on the first image

There is a story about Kevin Carter, a photographer, who after taking a picture of a young girl in Sudan trying to escape a vulture, did NOT help her (because he was told that these kids wouldn't stand a chance anyhow and that they were filled with deseases). The pic won a nobel prize and the photographer killed himself. The pic can be found HERE and some words about him HERE. It is 100% certain that the poor girl, whose fate is unknown had no power over her life really...

On the other hand there is a guy who gave a speech about "Are you going to finish strong?". The video can be found HERE (nothing bad here, just watch it, it's amazing. It's hard to say that he gave up because of the troubles he had in life, or because of various situations, right?

In other words, the girl asking to cheat is probably not deserving to cheat... Other cases mentioned by Kevin, they could and still finish strong and be ok in life, despite a tiny bit of cheating...


Edited by Nikolas (09/22/11 08:09 AM)
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#1757175 - 09/22/11 09:26 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 7753
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Quote:
It's "YOUR" fault only if you have 100% control over your DNA, your upbringing, your social matrix, the times you live in, etc. etc. etc.


Sounds to me like a counsel of despair .... or a bit of good old-fashioned Calvinist predestination. grin

Even if we do NOT have 100% control, and only an egotistical fool would think that they did, there is a lot of mileage in behaving as though you do. This is where personal responsibility becomes a social as well as personal virtue.

If you rationalize that it's just fine to sell your papers, knowing full well what they will be used for, you have abdicated personal responsibility for a few pieces of silver. Poor choice, as far as I'm concerned.


Sorry that this stuff causes you despair.

And, as you probably know, this response of yours is exactly what is expected from you. Don't let that get you down.

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#1757181 - 09/22/11 09:38 AM Re: Would you? [Re: polyphasicpianist]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: polyphasicpianist
Just to play Devil's Advocate, I would have to say that the ethical violation lies with the student offering to hand in the paper under the false assumption that they wrote it - you (as the ghost writer) are not lying to anyone, they are. You are nothing more than a ghost writer. It is none of your concern what they do or don't do with the paper, because once you take the money and hand over the paper, it no longer belongs to you, i.e. it's not your responsibility.

Here is an analogy: If a person buys a car from a dealership and then uses this car to intentionally kill somebody, it is illogical to blame the dealership. Unless, the person buying the car informed the dealer they were going to use it as a murder weapon.
The person writing the paper for another student knows exactly what will be done with it.

Originally Posted By: polyphasicpianist
So, as I see it, the only way this business of writing the person's paper could be considered un-ethical is if the behaviour of lying to the professor actually hurts other people.

Now, clearly the professor is not going to be hurt by this lie (assuming he does not find out about it), so I don't think that is really a issue. However, if, for instance, the person's grade is curved among other student's grades, then (assuming the paper you write results in them getting a higher grade than they would have got had they written it) the other student's grades will drop unjustly. This would be un-ethical. However, if the grade this person receives is in no way contingent upon the grade of anyone else, then I see no ethical violation on the part of you, the ghost writer.
Graduates who apply for jobs or graduate school are partly selected by their grades. So there is automatically some possibility for competition between the student who got the grade honestly and the one who didn't.

There's also the simple factor of the student not writing the paper getting the day off to do something they'd prefer to do. Would it be appropriate to give some people Monday off every week?

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#1757184 - 09/22/11 09:44 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Quote:
And, as you probably know, this response of yours is exactly what is expected from you. Don't let that get you down.




The perfect riposte! I'm glad I wasn't sipping coffee.
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#1757298 - 09/22/11 11:47 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Piano*Dad]
kevinb Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Even if we do NOT have 100% control, and only an egotistical fool would think that they did, there is a lot of mileage in behaving as though you do. This is where personal responsibility becomes a social as well as personal virtue.


Well, yes, we all have to act as though we had some measure of control over our lives. Presumably there's a place between deterministic fatalism and selfish individualism where reasonable folk can live.

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#1757328 - 09/22/11 12:24 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Originally Posted By: kevinb
...Traditionally, the situation in medical education was just slightly different....

You didn't comment at all on my main points.
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#1757845 - 09/23/11 06:21 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
kevinb Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: kevinb
...Traditionally, the situation in medical education was just slightly different....

You didn't comment at all on my main points.


Sorry. Is this really the place for a discussion of testing methodologies for medical students? I mean, I'm happy to discuss it, but it just doesn't to have much to do with pianos.

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#1757857 - 09/23/11 07:28 AM Re: Would you? [Re: Nannerl Mozart]
Damon Offline
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Registered: 09/22/06
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Originally Posted By: Nannerl Mozart
You are a poor and penniless music student, you average A - B+ grades and your peer who struggles with essays offers you $100 to write her essay. She is very busy with her studies since she is a performance major. You know it's wrong but would you do it?



First, I have to know, is she hot?
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#1757920 - 09/23/11 11:24 AM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: kevinb
....Is this really the place for a discussion of testing methodologies for medical students? I mean, I'm happy to discuss it, but it just doesn't to have much to do with pianos.

True! But you're the one who brought up the subject, and I just replied -- and then you addressed it further without addressing what I had said to you! I mean, it's OK. Just sayin'. grin
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#1758149 - 09/23/11 06:30 PM Re: Would you? [Re: Mark_C]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: kevinb
....Is this really the place for a discussion of testing methodologies for medical students? I mean, I'm happy to discuss it, but it just doesn't to have much to do with pianos.

True! But you're the one who brought up the subject, and I just replied -- and then you addressed it further without addressing what I had said to you! I mean, it's OK. Just sayin'. grin


Nothing personal, honest. I just wasn't paying attention smirk

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#1758158 - 09/23/11 06:53 PM Re: Would you? [Re: kevinb]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: kevinb
....I just wasn't paying attention smirk

Then you shouldn't be so proud of giving tests that med students only got 40 on! grin
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