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So I was listening to the recordings of Rachmaninoff playing his 2nd and 3rd piano concertos and I began to wonder why we've all adopted a certain way of playing Rachmaninoff's music that's nothing like his own. We are incredibly lucky to have recordings of this composer, yet we don't put forth any effort to play his compositions like he did. Why do you think this is? I don't think I've heard a recording of those concerti that sound anything like Rachmaninoff's interpretation.
I know that some of you may feel that your interpretation should be unique to your own self, but at the higher levels of piano study, you are often asked to adopt a certain interpretation, or may even aspire to an interpretation of a really great player.
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Rachmaninoff's concerto recordings were all done in an extremely rushed and hectic series of sessions.. in addition, he was pressed to play at uncomfortable tempi and make lots of cuts because of the limitations of recording at that time. There's no doubt, of course, that his magical golden sound comes through.
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#1757039 - 09/22/1112:44 AMRe: Rachmaninoff's Piano Playing
[Re: jeffreyjones]
Pogorelich.
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Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
Rachmaninoff's concerto recordings were all done in an extremely rushed and hectic series of sessions.. in addition, he was pressed to play at uncomfortable tempi and make lots of cuts because of the limitations of recording at that time. There's no doubt, of course, that his magical golden sound comes through.
That's completely true. AND he was extremely self critical and never thought his compositions were really that great. He also preferred others playing his works, like Horowitz or Moiseiwitsch. Rachmaninoff absolutely hated the idea of people imitating him in his own works - because the piece is different every time he plays it; the interpretation changes. You should look up on youtube, there's an interview with Moiseiwitsch and it's very informative about this. Here's part I:
So very true! When I was in college and playing Rachmaninoff's g minor prelude, my teacher was unusually instructive on how exactly he wanted this played. I tried to do exactly as he said. Later, I found out, to my joy, that this was, indeed, the way the master himself performed it. A happy coincidence? I'll never know. I do love Rachmaninoff's playing. It is so wise and exspansive. His recordings do give valuable clues baout how he perceived his music, although imitation for it's sake isn't a good idea. I'm listening to him play Chopin's Sonata No. 2 right now.
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#1757076 - 09/22/1102:58 AMRe: Rachmaninoff's Piano Playing
[Re: Cheeto717]
debrucey
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While it may be true that the recording conditions were not great, it is also true that Rachmaninoff was incredibly self critical and if a recording didn't reflect what he wanted then he simply wouldn't have allowed it to be released. It wasn't uncommon for him to record dozens and dozens of takes of a piece only to never allow it to be released at all. He angrily left his first recording company because they issued unapproved takes of some of his pieces.
I think there is a lot that can be taken away from listening to his recordings of his concertos. Yes, even the speed.
I was completely unhappy about rehearsals of the 2nd concerto, the conductor just didn't get it right, so I gave him the recording by Rachmaninoff himself, and, hopla, we went happily along!
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#1757092 - 09/22/1104:19 AMRe: Rachmaninoff's Piano Playing
[Re: Cheeto717]
stores
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Originally Posted By: Cheeto717
I know that some of you may feel that your interpretation should be unique to your own self, but at the higher levels of piano study, you are often asked to adopt a certain interpretation, or may even aspire to an interpretation of a really great player.
Any interpretation SHOULD be unique and is, since no two performances can possibly be the same. There is a personal fingerprint on any performance no matter how closely one follows the score. A "higher level of study" will never ask one to adopt a certain interpretation or to aspire to an interpretation.
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#1757093 - 09/22/1104:20 AMRe: Rachmaninoff's Piano Playing
[Re: Pogorelich.]
stores
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Registered: 12/28/09
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Another point I'd love to make: no one should imitate Rachmaninoff. Nobody IS Rachmaninoff, so we can't play like him; why not play like yourself?
+1
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"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy
"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."
So I was listening to the recordings of Rachmaninoff playing his 2nd and 3rd piano concertos and I began to wonder why we've all adopted a certain way of playing Rachmaninoff's music that's nothing like his own. We are incredibly lucky to have recordings of this composer, yet we don't put forth any effort to play his compositions like he did. Why do you think this is? I don't think I've heard a recording of those concerti that sound anything like Rachmaninoff's interpretation.
I believe that Stephen Hough said he made some effort to take R's recordings into consideration when making his own recordings.
Quote:
I know that some of you may feel that your interpretation should be unique to your own self, but at the higher levels of piano study, you are often asked to adopt a certain interpretation, or may even aspire to an interpretation of a really great player.
Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 609
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: wr
Quote:
I know that some of you may feel that your interpretation should be unique to your own self, but at the higher levels of piano study, you are often asked to adopt a certain interpretation, or may even aspire to an interpretation of a really great player.
Really? I've never heard of that.
I've witnessed that even at the conservatory level, but I must admit that once it was a last resort after the instructor had apparently tried everything else. Another instance occurred with the clarified statement that the interpretation was to be studied strictly as starting point.
The other instances - though I must admit to not having a full context in which to verify my judgement - really kind of shocked me (My first instinct was to stand up and scream at the instructor - I'm glad I didn't!).
Back to the OP: The Rachmaninoff recording of the first movement of the 3rd concerto always impressed me as being filled with a kind of Mozartean grace. I wonder if I've been hallucinating?......
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#1757168 - 09/22/1109:17 AMRe: Rachmaninoff's Piano Playing
[Re: debrucey]
Pogorelich.
3000 Post Club Member
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 3765
Originally Posted By: debrucey
While it may be true that the recording conditions were not great, it is also true that Rachmaninoff was incredibly self critical and if a recording didn't reflect what he wanted then he simply wouldn't have allowed it to be released. It wasn't uncommon for him to record dozens and dozens of takes of a piece only to never allow it to be released at all. He angrily left his first recording company because they issued unapproved takes of some of his pieces.
I think there is a lot that can be taken away from listening to his recordings of his concertos. Yes, even the speed.
Rachmaninoff was a lot more critical of his compositions than his playing. I would listen to him playing other composers, not his own stuff, when it comes to educational purposes.. (generally)
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I'm glad this thread has come up, because I happen to be listening to the Complete Rachmaninoff set on Brilliant Classics - the concertos are played by Earl Wild, who heard Rachmaninoff play many times. Of course, I've also heard Rachmaninoff's own recordings - and I've read that he was highly disatisfied with the Third Concerto. While Rachmaninoff was self-critical, he was also realistic. He once remarked to Horowitz, who asked about a certain hall's acoustics: If the check is good, the acoustics are good.
Rachmaninoff's own recordings of his concertos - or anything else for that matter - are required listening. But I would never suggest that a musician base his interpretation on anyone else's - and if their teacher recommended that, I'd advise they seek a new teacher. That said, I find his recording of the First Concerto, and the early recording (from 1924) of the Second Concerto, along with the Paganini Rhapsody to be particularly successful. They're tremendously virtuosic, but not in a exhibitionistic sense. His recording of the Third doesn't quite "work" for me - which could partly be on account of the cuts taken. The first movement seems just rattled off - and the last movement doesn't really build to a climax. The Fourth Concerto is given a pretty solid performance, but it also lacks the kind of narrative through-line that, say, Michelangeli brings to the piece.
I actually discussed Hough's recordings of the Rachmaninoff Concertos with the pianist. He told me he did listen to the composer's recordings, but based his interpretations on the score - which is why he played the Second Concerto's opening chords in strict time with the rest of the movement. He also told me he got into a row with the record label over the cover photograph - someone wanted to airbrush the cigarette and holder from the photo - which Hough forbade.
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Lets not forget that recording capabilities were limited at the time. Rachmaninoff most probably felt pressured to play his works in that 'rushed' manner in ordered to fit within the limitations. He himself stated that his works are best played by other performers (Horowitz, Moiseiwitch).
I know that some of you may feel that your interpretation should be unique to your own self, but at the higher levels of piano study, you are often asked to adopt a certain interpretation, or may even aspire to an interpretation of a really great player.
Really? I've never heard of that.
[/quote]
Happens pretty often actually, especially with students that come from a very prestigious teacher lineage. I had this conversation with Jennifer Hayghee, a student of Adele Marcus. The piece in question was the Liszt B minor sonata. Adele pretty much passed down the interpretation she was given to Jennifer, and so on. Of course every time she will perform it, it will be slightly different. However, there many things you can play the same consistently.
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I'm glad this thread has come up, because I happen to be listening to the Complete Rachmaninoff set on Brilliant Classics - the concertos are played by Earl Wild, who heard Rachmaninoff play many times. Of course, I've also heard Rachmaninoff's own recordings - and I've read that he was highly disatisfied with the Third Concerto. While Rachmaninoff was self-critical, he was also realistic. He once remarked to Horowitz, who asked about a certain hall's acoustics: If the check is good, the acoustics are good.
Rachmaninoff's own recordings of his concertos - or anything else for that matter - are required listening. But I would never suggest that a musician base his interpretation on anyone else's - and if their teacher recommended that, I'd advise they seek a new teacher. That said, I find his recording of the First Concerto, and the early recording (from 1924) of the Second Concerto, along with the Paganini Rhapsody to be particularly successful. They're tremendously virtuosic, but not in a exhibitionistic sense. His recording of the Third doesn't quite "work" for me - which could partly be on account of the cuts taken. The first movement seems just rattled off - and the last movement doesn't really build to a climax. The Fourth Concerto is given a pretty solid performance, but it also lacks the kind of narrative through-line that, say, Michelangeli brings to the piece.
I actually discussed Hough's recordings of the Rachmaninoff Concertos with the pianist. He told me he did listen to the composer's recordings, but based his interpretations on the score - which is why he played the Second Concerto's opening chords in strict time with the rest of the movement. He also told me he got into a row with the record label over the cover photograph - someone wanted to airbrush the cigarette and holder from the photo - which Hough forbade.
Very cool. I would love to have a chat with Hough. I remember listening to his recordings but it has been some time. I'll have to revisit them. As far as Rachmaninoff's recording, I agree that the recording of the 3rd concerto isn't exactly satisfactory. I especially wasn't a fan of the cadenza.
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#1757341 - 09/22/1112:41 PMRe: Rachmaninoff's Piano Playing
[Re: LeaC]
BruceD
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Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Lea's Muse-ic
[...]When I was in college and playing Rachmaninoff's g minor prelude, my teacher was unusually instructive on how exactly he wanted this played. I tried to do exactly as he said. [...]
Whether how your teacher had you play this Prelude was or was not how Rachmaninoff recorded it, I would be quite disturbed by having to work with a teacher who told me " ... exactly how he wanted [a piece] played...." Unusually manipulative or unusually autocratic rather than "unusually instructive," I would say.
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Rachmaninoff's concerto recordings were all done in an extremely rushed and hectic series of sessions.. in addition, he was pressed to play at uncomfortable tempi and make lots of cuts because of the limitations of recording at that time. There's no doubt, of course, that his magical golden sound comes through.
The sessions may have been rushed and hectic, but I don't believe the tempi or cuts had anything to do with recording limitations. From what I've read over the years, Rachmaninoff was insecure about his third PC and critical reactions that it was too long, therefore he made cuts. (He didn't cut any of the other works for piano and orchestra in his recordings.) However, he firmly believed in the quality of his third symphony, despite some critics complaining that it was too long, and he recorded it without any cuts in 1939. He recorded the third concerto in 1939-40, and the symphony plays 5 minutes longer than the third concerto.
I've read that the 12" 78 rpm discs in those days held an average of 4-5 minutes of music on each side, which means that the second and third movements of the second piano concerto definitely could not squeeze onto two sides, but each would fit very easily on three sides with lots of room to spare. So it doesn't make sense to me that Rachmaninoff's tempi were rushed for the sake of the recording. I believe he naturally played them that way: very flowingly exposing the structure of his works while lingering over key points in phrases.
Besides it not making sense to me, I've not read this theory about his recordings before, and I am politely but firmly sceptical about the accuracy of your source.
By the way, I second those who feel that there is a lot to learn from Rachmaninoff's recordings of his works -- and for me there's a lot to enjoy and love and admire too.
Oh, no, not at all! In fact I was one of those students who always had an agenda and tried to take control of the pieces I played. (Very annoying, I'm sure!) Reynaldo Reyes is a phenomenal pianist, and taught me so much. I was about 21 or so, and he really had to drive home the abundant rubato in the g minor prelude. I really learned so much from that experience. I am a firm believer in experimentation and certainly do not play pieces the same way each time. The pieces sort of play me now, and it's fun trying out new things, either spontaneously, or planned out.
I do get what you are saying, though, completely. The truth is, I was also listening to Leonard Pennario play this prelude. When I was young, I listened to a lot of performances, and was somewhat of a wannabe. That was a sort of silliness I outgrew a long time ago.
I just felt like I had to come to my teachers defense as he was not like that at all except for this piece.
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Did anyone even open the youtube link I provided? I highly recommend you do.
Wow! They cover the exact topic of this thread, with some first hand insight! What I also thought was interesting was his being shy when he first got to America. I sort of have this picture of concert pianists being the epitome of confidence, but obviously with our interviewee's stories, and Rachmaninoff himself, we see that is not the case.
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