|
Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments. Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers
(it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!
|
|
72 members (accordeur, BWV846, Animisha, benkeys, Anglagard44, brdwyguy, 16 invisible),
2,323
guests, and
438
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,703
6000 Post Club Member
|
OP
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,703 |
I sent the following message to an old friend ...
For some reason I started working on Darn That Dream again. That was a tune I learned back when I was 17 or so and working with guys in their 40's and 50's.
I've listened to a few newer recordings as well as a few older ones. The RealBook and other jazz fakebooks have the melody in measure six of the A section (in G major) as F#, A, F natural, Eb, but the original version from the original sheet music as well as the Benny Goodman recording, has an E instead of that F natural ... and that's the way I learned it and remembered it.
I understand why some guys, actually almost most, use the F natural instead of the E, but being faithful to Jimmy van Heusen takes precedent in my humble opinion.
What do you play in measure six ... and has this measure ever been an issue on jobs?
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,392
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,392 |
I always play the original melody there---the E with the Bb diminished chord. I've played with a lot of guys (sax/trumpet/guitar/vibes) and female singers that learned standards out of the real book (not a good idea ) though that play/sing the F natural which forces me to play Bbm7. Of course if I'm playing trio it's not as big an issue, the bass player will just go to Bb, if he's hip, has ears and is listening, he'll know to stay on the Bb and use a diminished sound if he fills as opposed to a minor 7th. Doing the Bbm7 -Eb7 thing for the blowing to mix it up can be cool but I try not to over do that--there's enough in the diminished sound with E to work off of. I've sat 15 ft from Hank Jones and he played the E with the Bb diminished and used it for the blowing too--never did the Bbm7. Alan Broadbent plays the E, so does Terry Trotter, Jimmy Rowles, Tommy Flannagan. It's funny, I heard probably one of the most lyrical jazz trumpeters in the world, Tom Harrell play DTD one time in a club. The first time he played the melody, he played the F, so throughout the tune the rhythm section followed his cue and played Bbm7-Eb7 for the blowing. Then on last time playing the melody going out he turned to the pianist, I believe it was Bill Mays, and he played the E. Bill caught it of course and played the appropriate Bb dim. But I found that interesting for sure. For me it's gotta be the E with the Bb diminished.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246 |
I personally prefer the F; I think it's more plaintive, if inauthentic.
However, in place of the Bb diminished or Bbm7 I sometimes play an E7b9 (or F dim raised 6th over E) which is not stock but if voiced cleverly sorta fits either melody note. (Which recalls to mind the old adage: there are no wrong chords, just interesting substitutions!)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,392
2000 Post Club Member
|
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,392 |
However, in place of the Bb diminished or Bbm7 I sometimes play an E7b9 (or F dim raised 6th over E) which is not stock but if voiced cleverly sorta fits either melody note.
That's a very nice sound....like a Db triad over a LH E-D shell voicing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,703
6000 Post Club Member
|
OP
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,703 |
I have a physical collection of fakebooks from the 1970's (three tunes to the page, copied directly from the original sheet music) and the collection of pdf files, hand written. I think a lot of kids today looking in the 'realbook' type fakebooks will play the F in Darn That Dream and never know the original melody written by van Heusen unless they visit older recordings.
Lover Man is a tune where the original melody was changed in a famous recording by Billie Holiday and her interpretation (or mistake?) is now the standard melody.
We've Only Just Begun, in the original sheet music (I never play tune though), has the wrong key signature. The sheet music shows Bb major though the tune was written in F major. The composer or publisher used the 'key' from the first chord, the problem was, the first chord was a IV chord and the key signature has an extra flat as a result.
Anyone know of any more examples? I find it interesting how these things happen and yet are not so often discussed.
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246 |
I just checked my "Fakebook CD" which has PDFs of 12 fake books with a Master Index. DTD appears in 4 of them. Three ("The Colorado Cookbook", "The New Real Book Volume 1" and "The Real Book Volume 1") have the unauthorized F, while only 1 ("The Jazz Fake Book") has the composer's E. The last-named, by the way, has in general fewer wrong or poorly chosen changes, melody notes and chord patterns than the others.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246 |
Another tune I recollect with the "wrong" key signature, on the sheet music and everywhere else, is Nat Cole's "Unforgettable".
The key signature has one sharp, i.e., G Major. But while the tune starts in G, it ends, weirdly, in C, so that according to the convention that the key you're in is the key you finish up in, "Unforgettable" should have a key signature of C. (Or am I being too pickypicky?)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,703
6000 Post Club Member
|
OP
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,703 |
My recollection of Unforgettable - it starts in G (and is in G) and then moves to C. I was never really thrilled with the construction of that tune though it was very successful.
We've Only Just Begun is (in the original sheet music) in F though the publisher or the composer (shame on him) used the wrong key signature.
Yamaha AvantGrand N1X | Roland RD 2000 | Sennheiser HD 598 headphones
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246
Full Member
|
Full Member
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 246 |
I was just trying to illustrate the point that the last chord of a song, not earlier ones, generally though not always determines the key and, if the last chord is not in the relative minor/major, the signature.
E.g., I Didn't Know What Time It Was seems to be in Dmi but doesn't reach its true key of F until the bridge, and How Deep Is The Ocean? doesn't reach an Eb major rest stop until the last 4 bars.
Many Latin tunes have more than one strain, minor and then major (Habanera from Carmen, Jalousie, Chega De Saudade) -- two key signatures? what key are they in? Both?
Contra: Autumn In New York starts in F but ends in Fmi. The published key signature is one flat, not four. I disagree with that. In the key of F there are no fewer accidentals in the vocal line than there would be if the key signature was Ab.
|
|
|
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
|
Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
|
|
|
|
Forums43
Topics223,405
Posts3,349,434
Members111,637
|
Most Online15,252 Mar 21st, 2010
|
|
|
|
|
|