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#1757078 - 09/22/11 03:02 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: J Cortese]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: J Cortese


It's more like learning a language where the word for "Friday" is "Wednesday."


lol! I've been trying to learn that finger 2 is finger 1 (as in guitar). It's doing my head in for years. smile
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#1757083 - 09/22/11 03:30 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: currawong]
Nikolas Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5239
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: currawong
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
It's just an issue of naming the notes. You call it A, I call it La... Big deal... wink
The "big deal" is that when I use La it means the 6th degree of the scale, NOT A. (unless I'm in C major)
In an ideal world we would have one system of naming notes, with singable syllables. We would have another system of naming scale degrees, also with singable syllables (different ones!). Those, like landorrano, who can't see the point in singing generalised scale degrees in another context, in addition to absolute pitch, could ignore them. And we wouldn't be having these circular discussions. smile
Fair enough, but for the record the sixth note of a scale for me is... VI! grin

I don't think that this is far off inches vs cm. stones vs kilos and so on... wink
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#1757123 - 09/22/11 07:05 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Nikolas]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5454
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I don't think that this is far off inches vs cm. stones vs kilos and so on

Of course! But you have to realize that not everybody in the world has flexibility to do mathematical (or, in this case, musical) conversions in their brains. Some people are content doing the same thing the same way 1,000,000,000 times. The majority of the people on Earth can't even do simple algebra.
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#1757139 - 09/22/11 08:00 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Liezl Tajanlangit]
Jaak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Tallinn, Estonia
Hi,

Sorry I did not answer before about the explanations. So some points that make the ABC system a bit easier than DO,RE,MI.

1) The ABC system is alpahbetical and usually students already know the alpahbet. And the keys are in row alphabetically. Also the normal piano with 88 keys starts with A and it is very easy to show it from the beginning of the keyboard, later descirbe the pattern and how it repeats. So the learning of this is usually very natural and easy. You have to learn to use and adapt one system less.

2) It is much easier to sing in ABC system than id DO,RE,MI.
It is better to sing Gis than Sol-dies.

What do you think?

Here I rely on my own subjective experiences that have come through teaching.

GL
Jaak

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#1757142 - 09/22/11 08:05 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Liezl Tajanlangit]
Jaak Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 224
Loc: Tallinn, Estonia
Hi again,

About the moving Do-RE-MI.
When I was a student I hated this smile

When using this moving system we had Jo-Le-Mi-Na-So-Ra-Di.
It meant the steps in a scale and it was not bound to keys of the piano.

I think this is a very good way to strengthen and improve orientation in different scales.

And in Estonia (and probably in countries around) La means a fixed note on the keyboard. It is exactly the same as A. When Do-Re-Mi is used as moving system in your country and means a degree in a scale of course it has an important point.

Jaak


Edited by Jaak (09/22/11 08:09 AM)

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#1757307 - 09/22/11 11:55 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Jaak]
dumdumdiddle Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1264
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Jaak
2) It is much easier to sing in ABC system than id DO,RE,MI.
It is better to sing Gis than Sol-dies.


My experience has been the complete opposite. When you have a song like 'Mary Had a Little Lamb' and you sing all the note names using the alphabet, you end up singing: E-D-C-D-E-E-E, D-D-D, E-G-G, etc... Your ear is hearing only a long E sound for each note, confusing your ear and therefore useless if you're trying to train the ear.
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#1757320 - 09/22/11 12:11 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Liezl Tajanlangit]
Brinestone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 350
Not sure how relevant this is now, but I once taught a young-adult student from Brazil who had been (very informally) trained on the fixed Do Re Mi system. One of the things she requested I teach her at her first lesson was the ABC method so she could converse with musicians in the United States. I found it incredibly easy to teach, and within weeks, she knew just what I meant when I referred to a letter name. I don't think either system is really a handicap, with that in mind. If needed, any student could learn the other system without too much trouble.

She may have had a bit more trouble beginning to think of Do Re Mi as moveable, but I don't actually remember. It's been a few years since she quit because she had a baby and didn't have time or money for lessons anymore.
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#1757519 - 09/22/11 05:07 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: ten left thumbs]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4776
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

I found solfege really helpful for understanding the blues scales (which in my mind go: do ma fa fi so ta do - but to each their own). With music that shifts tonality quickly (e.g. jazz) it does get limiting. For some music moveable solfa just isn't going to work. Just like no one counting system will work for all rhythms.

To clarify, for others, you are using a system that is a hybrid and goes about something like this:

1) Ascending:
do di re ri fa fi so si la li si do.
C C# D# E F F# G G# A A# B C, key of C

2) Descending: do si se la le so se fa mi me re ra do.
C B Bb A Ab G Gb F E Eb D Db.

THEORETICALLY this can work in any key.

The exact change in vowel sounds of lowered or raised degrees differs from system to system.

BUT: This becomes an absolute nightmare in a key like Gb. I hope most people will see why, immediately.

In addition, you don't have to get to jazz to get to nightmares. Think about the Chopin F# minor Prelude, Op. 28, no. 8, or even the F minor Etude from the "Trois Nouvelles Etudes". I keep reading about teachers who have their students sing "everything", but that would include melodic lines that are not only extremely complex but that are highly chromatic AND that go far outside the vocal range.
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#1757560 - 09/22/11 05:52 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Gary D.]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Gary D.

To clarify, for others, you are using a system that is a hybrid and goes about something like this:

1) Ascending:
do di re ri fa fi so si la li si do.
C C# D# E F F# G G# A A# B C, key of C

2) Descending: do si se la le so se fa mi me re ra do.
C B Bb A Ab G Gb F E Eb D Db.

THEORETICALLY this can work in any key.

The exact change in vowel sounds of lowered or raised degrees differs from system to system.

BUT: This becomes an absolute nightmare in a key like Gb. I hope most people will see why, immediately.

In addition, you don't have to get to jazz to get to nightmares. Think about the Chopin F# minor Prelude, Op. 28, no. 8, or even the F minor Etude from the "Trois Nouvelles Etudes". I keep reading about teachers who have their students sing "everything", but that would include melodic lines that are not only extremely complex but that are highly chromatic AND that go far outside the vocal range.


Hi Gary, What i use is absolutely a hybrid, far simpler than what you propose. Perhaps I should explain? I start out with the major scale:
do re mi fa so la ti do

To this I add the minor 2nd (ra), minor 3rd (ma), augmented 4th (fi), minor 6th (lo), and minor 7th (ta). Anything more complex than this makes my head hurt. I have found this useful for visualising new things on guitar, and new theory on piano, but I've never been tempted to apply it to Chopin. smile

My point is merely that a moveable solfa (as a system discrete from the absolute pitches) can be useful.

I'm sure many here will tut at the inaccuracy of what I do. But here's how my mind works. I take a concept like 'augmented 4th' That's 4 syllables. I need to get to the 4th syllable before I know what it is. It's a 4th. A special kind of 4th. What do I do? Ah yes, augment it. Or maybe I should think about a 'diminished 5th.' Another 4 syllables....

But if I'm running through a scale and I come to fi then I immediately know him - I know his foibles, I know where he fits and where he likes to go. Just simple syllables that help me orient myself in the key, that's all.
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#1757627 - 09/22/11 07:19 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Liezl Tajanlangit]
MadForBrad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 202
Loc: LA / Montreal
both

but I would never ever encourage movable Do unless you are dealing with toddlers.


Edited by MadForBrad (09/22/11 07:20 PM)

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#1757647 - 09/22/11 07:59 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: ten left thumbs]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4776
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: ten left thumbs

Hi Gary, What i use is absolutely a hybrid, far simpler than what you propose.

I'm really not proposing any system, and the one you are using is really a subset of what I showed.

Syllables change when notes in a major scale are raised or lowered.

For raising: do--di, re-ri, mi (usually not shown raised), fa-fi, la-li ti (usually not raised).

But ANY vowel change could be used...

For loweing: do (usually not lowered), ti-te, la-le, so-se, fa (usually not lowered), mi-me, re-ra.

You use "ma" for lowered "mi", which is understandable.

My point remains that this system falls apart sooner or later. But ALL systems fall apart on a very high level.

I never argue with what works. I think that ALL systems mentioned, letters, fixed do, moveable do, Roman numerals, have their place. It is only becoming inflexible and making any one of them the "Magic Cure for All Ear Problems" that becomes a problem. smile


Edited by Gary D. (09/23/11 12:49 AM)
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#1757649 - 09/22/11 08:05 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Gary D.]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5917
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
I think that ALL systems mentioned, letters, fixed do, moveable do, Roman numerals, have their place. It is only becoming inflexible and making any one of them the "Magic Cure for All Ear Problems". smile
thumb
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#1757789 - 09/23/11 12:50 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: currawong]
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4776
Loc: South Florida
Oops. I left off the last words in the last sentence. I meant to say that it is the inflexibility that is the PROBLEM. smile

Currawong, I think you read my mind. wink
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#1757805 - 09/23/11 01:36 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Gary D.]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5917
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Currawong, I think you read my mind. wink
I think I did. (Not that I generally finish other people's sentences for them...) wink
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#1757829 - 09/23/11 03:59 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Gary D.]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3336
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Gary D.

I never argue with what works. I think that ALL systems mentioned, letters, fixed do, moveable do, Roman numerals, have their place. It is only becoming inflexible and making any one of them the "Magic Cure for All Ear Problems" that becomes a problem. smile


yes absolutely. smile
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#1758707 - 09/24/11 11:58 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: ten left thumbs]
Liezl Tajanlangit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/06/10
Posts: 43
Ok thanks smile

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#2236321 - 02/23/14 11:07 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Liezl Tajanlangit]
johan d Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 02/20/14
Posts: 62
Loc: Belgium
A beginners question: Is a C D E F G A B the same on piano as on guitar?

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#2236356 - 02/23/14 12:24 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: johan d]
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7343
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Yes, if both instruments are tuned correctly.
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#2236522 - 02/23/14 08:44 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: John v.d.Brook]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3187
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Yes, if both instruments are tuned correctly.


You do need to watch the octave though, I think a guitar sounds an octave below what is written on the staff
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#2236543 - 02/23/14 09:32 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Liezl Tajanlangit]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7571
Loc: New York City
That wouldn't change anything as far as do-re-mi is concerned.

This thread was deceased, and now let's please let it remain so.
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#2236600 - 02/23/14 11:37 PM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: TimR]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11644
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Yes, if both instruments are tuned correctly.


You do need to watch the octave though, I think a guitar sounds an octave below what is written on the staff

I remember that discussion a while back. That is correct. G is still G, but it's an octave lower.

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#2236685 - 02/24/14 08:23 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: keystring]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3187
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: TimR
Originally Posted By: John v.d.Brook
Yes, if both instruments are tuned correctly.


You do need to watch the octave though, I think a guitar sounds an octave below what is written on the staff

I remember that discussion a while back. That is correct. G is still G, but it's an octave lower.


At the risk of veering off topic and again arousing the ire of polyphonist.....


as far as I know there is still no explanation why both notes, separated by that distance, sound like the same note. It is obvious why they would be consonant, and convenient to give them the same name, but not obvious at all why they should sound the same.
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#2236719 - 02/24/14 10:17 AM Re: Do-Re-Mi or ABC [Re: Liezl Tajanlangit]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11644
Loc: Canada
In regards to what you just wrote about octaves, Tim, I remember watching a video of a class under the Tobin system. The teacher used coloured tissue wrapping paper of the kind we use to wrap presents or line delicate objects. If you have a red sheet of this paper and it is folded many times, then it will appear a deep red. If it is unfolded, then the thinner the pile, the more washed out that red will appear. It's almost more like pink. I mean this kind of paper.

what that paper looks like

Each note in an octave was linked to a colour, so maybe C was red, D was blue, etc. A row of children were seated on a bench, and the teacher played two notes. They were to raise their hands if they were "the same". This went on for a while. Then the teacher played two notes that were an octave apart. Half the kids raised their hands, and half kept them down - a great deal of them looked puzzled. That's when the coloured tissue paper came out.


The teacher explained that these were octaves and they were both same and different. They were the same in the sense that red is red. They were different in the sense that the washed out red of the unfolded tissue paper did not look like the robust red of the folded tissue paper.

I think that there are reasons why octaves have this "sameness" to them, that has to do with harmonics and mathematics. But what is more important is THAT we hear them that way and music builds on it.

The guitar question was tricky, because a written G for piano is also a written G for guitar, but that G will sound an octave lower on the guitar. Depending on how sophisticated the asker's ear is, this may be important to know.

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