lol! I've been trying to learn that finger 2 is finger 1 (as in guitar). It's doing my head in for years.

Fair enough, but for the record the sixth note of a scale for me is... VI!

I don't think that this is far off inches vs cm. stones vs kilos and so on...

Of course! But you have to realize that not everybody in the world has flexibility to do mathematical (or, in this case, musical) conversions in their brains. Some people are content doing the same thing the same way 1,000,000,000 times. The majority of the people on Earth can't even do simple algebra.

Hi,

Sorry I did not answer before about the explanations. So some points that make the ABC system a bit easier than DO,RE,MI.

1) The ABC system is alpahbetical and usually students already know the alpahbet. And the keys are in row alphabetically. Also the normal piano with 88 keys starts with A and it is very easy to show it from the beginning of the keyboard, later descirbe the pattern and how it repeats. So the learning of this is usually very natural and easy. You have to learn to use and adapt one system less.

2) It is much easier to sing in ABC system than id DO,RE,MI.
It is better to sing Gis than Sol-dies.

What do you think?

Here I rely on my own subjective experiences that have come through teaching.

GL
Jaak

Hi again,

About the moving Do-RE-MI.
When I was a student I hated this

When using this moving system we had Jo-Le-Mi-Na-So-Ra-Di.
It meant the steps in a scale and it was not bound to keys of the piano.

I think this is a very good way to strengthen and improve orientation in different scales.

And in Estonia (and probably in countries around) La means a fixed note on the keyboard. It is exactly the same as A. When Do-Re-Mi is used as moving system in your country and means a degree in a scale of course it has an important point.

Jaak

My experience has been the complete opposite. When you have a song like 'Mary Had a Little Lamb' and you sing all the note names using the alphabet, you end up singing: E-D-C-D-E-E-E, D-D-D, E-G-G, etc... Your ear is hearing only a long E sound for each note, confusing your ear and therefore useless if you're trying to train the ear.

Not sure how relevant this is now, but I once taught a young-adult student from Brazil who had been (very informally) trained on the fixed Do Re Mi system. One of the things she requested I teach her at her first lesson was the ABC method so she could converse with musicians in the United States. I found it incredibly easy to teach, and within weeks, she knew just what I meant when I referred to a letter name. I don't think either system is really a handicap, with that in mind. If needed, any student could learn the other system without too much trouble.

She may have had a bit more trouble beginning to think of Do Re Mi as moveable, but I don't actually remember. It's been a few years since she quit because she had a baby and didn't have time or money for lessons anymore.

To clarify, for others, you are using a system that is a hybrid and goes about something like this:

1) Ascending:
do di re ri fa fi so si la li si do.
C C# D# E F F# G G# A A# B C, key of C

2) Descending: do si se la le so se fa mi me re ra do.
C B Bb A Ab G Gb F E Eb D Db.

THEORETICALLY this can work in any key.

The exact change in vowel sounds of lowered or raised degrees differs from system to system.

BUT: This becomes an absolute nightmare in a key like Gb. I hope most people will see why, immediately.

In addition, you don't have to get to jazz to get to nightmares. Think about the Chopin F# minor Prelude, Op. 28, no. 8, or even the F minor Etude from the "Trois Nouvelles Etudes". I keep reading about teachers who have their students sing "everything", but that would include melodic lines that are not only extremely complex but that are highly chromatic AND that go far outside the vocal range.

Hi Gary, What i use is absolutely a hybrid, far simpler than what you propose. Perhaps I should explain? I start out with the major scale:
do re mi fa so la ti do

To this I add the minor 2nd (ra), minor 3rd (ma), augmented 4th (fi), minor 6th (lo), and minor 7th (ta). Anything more complex than this makes my head hurt. I have found this useful for visualising new things on guitar, and new theory on piano, but I've never been tempted to apply it to Chopin.

My point is merely that a moveable solfa (as a system discrete from the absolute pitches) can be useful.

I'm sure many here will tut at the inaccuracy of what I do. But here's how my mind works. I take a concept like 'augmented 4th' That's 4 syllables. I need to get to the 4th syllable before I know what it is. It's a 4th. A special kind of 4th. What do I do? Ah yes, augment it. Or maybe I should think about a 'diminished 5th.' Another 4 syllables....

But if I'm running through a scale and I come to fi then I immediately know him - I know his foibles, I know where he fits and where he likes to go. Just simple syllables that help me orient myself in the key, that's all.

both

but I would never ever encourage movable Do unless you are dealing with toddlers.

I'm really not proposing any system, and the one you are using is really a subset of what I showed.

Syllables change when notes in a major scale are raised or lowered.

For raising: do--di, re-ri, mi (usually not shown raised), fa-fi, la-li ti (usually not raised).

But ANY vowel change could be used...

For loweing: do (usually not lowered), ti-te, la-le, so-se, fa (usually not lowered), mi-me, re-ra.

You use "ma" for lowered "mi", which is understandable.

My point remains that this system falls apart sooner or later. But ALL systems fall apart on a very high level.

I never argue with what works. I think that ALL systems mentioned, letters, fixed do, moveable do, Roman numerals, have their place. It is only becoming inflexible and making any one of them the "Magic Cure for All Ear Problems" that becomes a problem.

Oops. I left off the last words in the last sentence. I meant to say that it is the inflexibility that is the PROBLEM.

Currawong, I think you read my mind.

I think I did. (Not that I generally finish other people's sentences for them...)

yes absolutely.

Ok thanks