Hi, Im looking at pianos venables &sons and a Brodmann ,at about £4000 but I read somewhere on here don't buy any piano that has Chinese materials.I have enquirerd about these pianos and told that the framework and cabinet is imported from china.

Is it best to stay away from these pianos,will I be buying into something of a very poor quality.?

The Brodmann is a nice piano, I would get the PE series or above. Chris Venables is a very competent seller, sometimes it is not the piano you buy but who you buy it from that makes a big difference. I would have no hesitation buying from Chris.

I would talk to him directly about your question, and concerns over chinese materials.

I don't believe that one needs to stay away from all Chinese materials. One needs to stay away from low-quality Chinese materials, but then one needs to stay away from ALL low-quality materials, wherever they are made. I do not recall anyone on this site who has any claim to expertise taking the position that all Chinese materials are bad simply because they are from China. It is perhaps worth noting here that there are other nations in Asia that produce pianos; many of these have come in for criticism on this forum as well.

Moreover, one would be very hard pressed to find ANY piano that has no parts that were not made in Asia. In other words, I would be astonished if you could find many pianos the parts of which were entirely made outside of Asia.

Just my inexpert opinion. You also need to bear in mind that information on the Internet should be subjected to stringent checking before you accept it as true. You do not know the basis for a statement unless and until you can verify the expertise and disinterestedness of its source. This site, wonderful as it is, is not refereed, and anyone can post anything he or she wants about pianos, provided they are reasonably civilized in tone.

On the other hand, there are good pianos made in China that use some parts and materials not made in China.

Nothing inexpert about that opinion.

"China" seems to be a hot topic here, in general. And as a frequent business traveler to China, and visitor to manufacturing facilities (but not piano), I'll stick in my two cents. (My next trip is end of October.)



I visit China twice a year to talk to manufacturers, mostly for small electronics and some toys.

China is a large and diverse country. Beijing, Shanghai, and the Pearl River manufacturing cities of Guangzhou and Shenzhen, etc, are more different than say, California and New York. Even the languages are different and someone from Beijing has a hard time understanding "Shanghainese".

Chinese manufacturers support the full range of quality. You're free to turn the "quality dials" up or down as you wish to get the price/performance you want (at least in my area, electronics and plastics moldings, etc).

Chinese people in the cities are very aware of Western brands. However, they don't seem to care if they get real items or knock-offs. Inside China, a Western name on fashion and style items can signify quality or status.

They'll copy anything, like this not-quite-an-iPhone



or these not-quite Rolex, Patek Phillipe, etc:



(I'm actually very surprised there aren't fake "antique" Steinways flooding the market. As far as I know, most Chinese plates are wet-sand casted because the cost to hand-finish them is low. It would be trivial to cast a copy of a Steinway plate... I guess the risk/reward ratio hasn't quite made it worth while.)

However, China Manufacturing, when you are willing to pay for the best managed plants, is capable of greatness. We all know, of course, that some very high-quality Apple products are manufactured and assembled in China at Foxconn.

In the American and European markets, I think we'll know Chinese pianos have arrived when they no longer try to hide their Chinese roots, as the Japanese companies embraced their Japanese-ness during the late 60s and 70s. Japanese Yamaha makes no secret of their Japanese heritage. It's (rightly) a point of pride. Yamaha is an amazing company with an fantastic history that makes everything from outboard motors to stereo equipment to pianos.

China has a very motivated young labor force. Visiting the Chinese cities you see a dynamic exciting place unlike any U.S. city. Young people are optimistic and want to work, and work hard. (Even with a 9.5%+ unemployment rate here, we can't find qualified people to work at our company here in California!). I suspect that we will soon see Chinese pianos that are as good as anyone else's, that proudly come from China, and that emphasize their Chinese heritage, at least for the Western markets. I would love to see an eastern-Styled case for a piano.

Right now, there just isn't a market for high-end Chinese pianos. Inside China, those that can afford any price will probably by Steinway, Bosendorfer, etc. And outside of China, people are still skeptical. It will be an uphill climb for them, but I see no reason why they won't follow the same trend Japan did, where they went from "shlock" to "high quality" in area after area (cameras, motorcycles, cars, pianos, etc.)



If I were shopping today for a practice room piano or small grand that was on a good point on the price-performance curve, I certainly would consider a Chinese piano.

Off-topic: i would love to visit China one day..I've been to other parts of Asia and it was very DIFFERENT. im hoping my second visit will be better and much more enjoyable.

My experience is that the things you have to watch out for are the metals and coatings.

I've had Chinese channel locks that broke when I gripped hard on a pipe. Chinese "stainless" rusts, just not quite as fast as CRS. A friend reports a broken cast iron part turned out to have old ball point pen springs embedded in the material.

The furniture coatings I've seen start out very shiny and pretty, but I can't figure out what they are. I've eliminated shellac, lacquer, and varnish. The mystery stuff on the dining room table reacts with something that was spilled on it in a strange way, and gets permanent lumps. It's also very soft, and gets fine scratches just from ordinary paper towels. There are also the lead paint issues with children's toys.

So, I'd say wait 10 - 20 years and buy that Chinese piano used when you know what's what.

There's an aspect of "Chinese" with respect to quality that people do not quite understand in the states, because they are not thinking first at home.

In the states it is very hard to make something cheaply. Same with Europe, at least Western Europe. The cost of labor, materials, regulation, taxes, etc. means everything has some lowest-possible-cost which is not all that low.

But in China (and some other places) the bottom is far lower. So western companies who want to offer something staggeringly cheap (like the big "W" who I won't name as I work with them), and care little about quality, can ONLY get it in places like China.

That doesn't mean the top is lower as well. It just means the stuff we are flooded with at incredibly low prices is all made in China and so that etches itself into our mind set. And by inference we assume it is all cheap. Or that somehow it must be cheap. In the (much smaller) market for higher end items, Chinese products have a smaller relative market share not just because they have not pushed into that market, but because we have pulled them into the lower end market and they went with the flow. Don't assume that means they cannot do higher end work, just they went where the money was.

I once heard a talk by a senior executive at Microsoft explain why they were so successful. He started off by asking "do you think it is because we make the best product"? (Scenario: this was a user group meeting of a competing product, and so there was a resounding "no" -- it was a hostile audiance, who thought their product was so much better).

He went on to say "no, it is because we make one good enough". His message was that the public did not want "great", they only wanted "good enough", and once you get just a little past "good enough" people in general no longer want to pay more for something "a bit better than good enough".

Think about it in regards to China.

Thanks for all your replys,it was very interesting.
I was kind of hoping that someone who actually owns one of these pianos give me their opinion on them.I might put it in another post .Thanks.

Microsoft is a very strange and special case, because they own something that's really an engineering standard: the operating system for PC's. When you own the universe, your product doesn't have to work. That's what made Gates rich.

Could you point to the advice you received here not to buy any piano with Chinese materials?

If the correct attention is given to piano made in China that was produced with a good high standard a good tech like Venables & Sons can make all the difference.

The brodman being the more expensive of the 2 has a beautiful tone, however the Venables and Sons pianos have custom options, like different hammers , strings and so on that make them very unique for that price point.
You should talk to Chris or Will, they are fantastic, they always help me out whenever I am in piano distress and I haven't even purchased my piano from them!!

He will tell you what you need to know and educate you on this subject, ask him thing, tell him your worries. He is a true gentleman and he will certainly not sell you sour grape... (he does have them)

Good luck and give him my regards

That is surely true, but probably only part of the truth. The list of the parts of the piano which were not imported from China would be much shorter than the opposite. I get the impression that there is some kind of a stigma toward Chinese parts, even for even the dealers of said pianos, to (mis)represent them this way.


I assume you mean "No parts made in Asia." This gets bounced around a fair bit, but no one seems to be able to substantiate it. ANY piano? What parts do Steinway, Schimmel, Sauter, Steingraeber, Förster, Blüthner, etc (there are more) import from China or Asia? I was under the impression they use US and European woods, strings, hammers, felts, keys, plates, actions, fittings, etc. If you have any factual information on that it would be interesting to know. If not, I suggest holding back a bit on such generalized statements.

I have had a good experience with my Chinese piano. I think you would be cheating yourself to not consider a piano simply because of Chinese parts. Buy the best piano that is within your budget.

+1

First of all, as I've said so many times before, there are Chinese pianos and then there are..... "Chinese pianos"

At the present time, it's still a mix of variable quality ranging from o.k - good - very good.

Those which are "very good" - this despite the continuous denial that this is happening by some here - are now starting to equate and in some cases, even surpass the quality of other, more established makes.

In each of those cases, crucial parts and components such as hammers, strings, even soundboards are most typically not of Chinese origin but often either American or German. Wondering if this is a coincidence.

These pianos also often have designers, respected personalities from the West who insist that only certain parts must be used in their pianos to accomplish their goal of improved quality or excellence.

In reverse, Chinese parts are finding themselves increasingly in pianos made elsewhere including Europe and U.S.
If in doubt, always ask for "specs", no maker would *not* quickly point out Renner hammers or Renner actions were they in fact used in their pianos. If there is 'silence' or no specs - you know what to expect...

So it's a mixed bag out there.

It's neither the hyping of China nor the denying that things are going on over there pretty major that is telling the whole story.

Back to playing the piano,looking at price tag and making up one's mind what's making sense in today's market.

It will not only be highly individual - but a mixed bag.

For some time to come.....

Norbert

In response to Supply: I tried to check your website, but it seems not be be available at this time. I thought I might find answers to my questions there.

In terms of parts made in China, I have done some research specifically on plastics in pianos and not found any specific answers that are available to members of the general public (like me). I find this interesting in itself. If one only put parts made in Europe into one's pianos, wouldn't one boast about it? So I will ask you:

Where is the plastic made that is used in piano keytops?

Where are the metals used in piano building mined? Smelted? Combined to produce alloys like brass?

Where are the glues and finishes used in piano construction made, and what are the countries of origin of their components?

If the answers to any of these include Asia, there we are. And if the answers are not known, why not?

I have a Brodmann 187 purchased from Venables 18 months ago, and I played a couple of the Venables-branded pianos when selecting it. I have absolutely no qualms in recommending either, my piano tuner/technician praises the build quality, and pianist friends are also positive.

Perhaps all those other people are being polite, and of course I have a confirmation bias, but I would not take baseless criticisms of Chinese manufacture seriously.

And Yamaha and Kawai, parts from China, Vietnam, Indonesia... who nows where else?

And where comes the special "Tharan" plastic for the key covers? Which is - for Steinway pianos - applied by their subsidiary Kluge in Remscheid, Germany?

Does Kluge produce from crude or raw oil (..coming from the north sea, for the European origin..) their own plastic material and melt it with ceramics so that the "grippy" surface of Tharan is generated?

..or may it be the case that the basing plastic comes from Turkey, or Thailand, or Vietnam, or from otherwhere else in Asia..?..

..and what would this matter? ..where the crude oil for plastic key covers comes from?

The "american or european origin" of soundboards means that the wood (!) once grew in Italy, Austria, Czech or Alaska.

But who fabricates the whole soundboard? Do the chinese buy a whole soundboard at Strunz, Bavaria? Or do they put it togehter on their own? Part-part. It may depend. And who does the fitting-in procedure when a soundboard is "married" for life to a piano rim?

THAT is a VERY quality-relevant question.

..and I don't try to tell you that no chinese piano worker would be able to produce a soft-gentle-slipping-into-stiff-right-tension-fitting assembly rim-soundboard. Yes, there are chinese workers who are able to do this.

...but how many? ..and Where are they, maybe besides of the Hailun factory, only for example?


..and if their work will become "too expensive" (..for nut cracking "economists" in the comfortable offices it will, at any time, inavoidable..) then you go to ... Vietnam? Cambodia? Indonesia? Kazhakstan?

.. ahh - Afghanistan. Or?
;-)

Dear folks: we live in "globalization times". Information is everything. Piano quality - It doesn't rely on the angles of anybody's eyes, ok? It relies on craftmanship. Which has to be generated, educated, applied, with the necesseray tools, with the necessary knowledge, with the necessary materials, with the necessary time to do it right, with the necessary respect.

The last one is often missing. In the minimum.

My piano? Coming from America. Wholly. There is no single piece of asian nor european originating material in it.

But the men who designed it were born germans..

:-)

Early globalization. Proud to have bought "american."

norbert, considering the source (and bias), you need to elucidate when you make such statements as above. examples, please.

regarding outsourcing -- it's a double-edged sword. boeing, in their development of the 787, chose to outsource the production of many parts of this airplane, which has resulted in billions in over budget and way behind schedule. my company has tried outsourcing some software development projects to india with poor results. one must expect that much gets 'lost in translation'.

Exactly my point. Where is the information? I see mostly speculation, un-informed opinion and many assumptions, not only in your post. But very little information, sadly.

Dear Entheo:

I would love to answer your question directly but would be immediately accused of *self-promotion*....

Perhaps do a little search of the many testimonials and letters from owners of certain makes which can be found all across this board.

Many have done in-depth comparative reporting which might be worth reading.

And don't forget to compare specs of pianos in same or similar class.

Together with simply trying out pianos, it may help to shed some light on things...

Norbert

norbert: i rarely get my blood up about these types of things but yours is the worst kind of self-promotion -- making unsubstantiated claims and then expecting those who question those claims to substantiate them.

if you have facts, state them -- that's not self-promotion, that's fact. if you don't have facts, i respectfully submit to you that you should refrain from making misleading characterizations in support of the products you carry.

and by the way -- if you are suggesting that i haven't played these chinese wonders, i have. pretty on the outside, prosaic on the inside. long way to go before they compete with anything that actually sounds good.

Supply: I asked for information from you about sources of certain specific materials. Do you know the answers, or, if not, where I can find them?

In any event, in my view this debate, which has happened before, does not make much sense. The question is not whether a piano (or its parts) is from China (or anywhere else, for that matter). The question is whether it is a good piano.

A bad piano is a bad piano because it is a bad piano. It is not a bad piano because it is made in (or has parts from) China (or anywhere else). If the parts are flawed in a way that makes the piano a bad piano, they are flawed, and the piano will not be a good one, or a good buy. The piano is a bad piano, but not BECAUSE of its origin, but rather BECAUSE it is made of poor components badly assembled.

Take another look at the OP. I really have no information to suggest that this original post is anything but on the level, yet it reads like many a thread starter written by someone with an interest in getting people to disagree with the premise, and to disagree vociferously.

What do we have here as our thread starter? It begins with a vague statement of anti-Chinese product sentiment linked loosely to PianoWorld ....



This is a deft touch. Vague but suggestive. It's followed by a truly aggressive declarative statement masquerading as an innocent question:




That's a real pot-boiler, isn't it? This seems well designed to get lots of people to say all sorts of positive things about Chinese materials and Chinese pianos. After all, vague China bashing will no doubt bother many people who own Chinese made pianos.

Again, I have no notion that this particular poster is anything other than what he claims to be. But if I were a sock/shill for a dealer in Chinese pianos or pianos with Chinese components, I couldn't have written a better post to instigate good testimonials for products like mine.

Metals typically are recycled more than mined. Melting down scrap has been standard procedure since long before the word "recycling" was coined. It's a lot less expensive than extraction from ore. That's what happens to all those old cars that go through the shredding machines. And it's not a bad thing at all, because they analyze the molten mixture and add what it needs to make the alloy they want.

???

Worrying about being accused of self promotion hasn't stopped you around 10,000 times in the past.

Self promotion doesn't have anything to do with whether what you say is true, false , or somewhere in between..

Questions? I would call them speculative assertions that you are unable to back up:


I am not saying I know. I am saying (and thank you for confirming) that you do not know. Yet you appear to stand by your generalized and unfounded assertion. I'll add, that to all of your three examples, Germany has been a world leader for decades. They could go abroad to source those materials, but they likely get them a few hours down the Autobahn...

I'll tell you why. Because it does not matter if the copper ore that ends up being part of a brass pedal comes from Chile or Sumatra. This thread is about piano parts used in production. If you want to split hairs about elements and atoms, maybe start a new thread on that...

Rumor has it that at Fazioli they are currently sweeping the shop floor with a Chinese broom. Does that count for you?