Hi, Im looking at pianos venables &sons and a Brodmann ,at about £4000 but I read somewhere on here don't buy any piano that has Chinese materials.I have enquirerd about these pianos and told that the framework and cabinet is imported from china.

Is it best to stay away from these pianos,will I be buying into something of a very poor quality.?

The Brodmann is a nice piano, I would get the PE series or above. Chris Venables is a very competent seller, sometimes it is not the piano you buy but who you buy it from that makes a big difference. I would have no hesitation buying from Chris.

I would talk to him directly about your question, and concerns over chinese materials.

I don't believe that one needs to stay away from all Chinese materials. One needs to stay away from low-quality Chinese materials, but then one needs to stay away from ALL low-quality materials, wherever they are made. I do not recall anyone on this site who has any claim to expertise taking the position that all Chinese materials are bad simply because they are from China. It is perhaps worth noting here that there are other nations in Asia that produce pianos; many of these have come in for criticism on this forum as well.

Moreover, one would be very hard pressed to find ANY piano that has no parts that were not made in Asia. In other words, I would be astonished if you could find many pianos the parts of which were entirely made outside of Asia.

Just my inexpert opinion. You also need to bear in mind that information on the Internet should be subjected to stringent checking before you accept it as true. You do not know the basis for a statement unless and until you can verify the expertise and disinterestedness of its source. This site, wonderful as it is, is not refereed, and anyone can post anything he or she wants about pianos, provided they are reasonably civilized in tone.

On the other hand, there are good pianos made in China that use some parts and materials not made in China.

Nothing inexpert about that opinion.

"China" seems to be a hot topic here, in general. And as a frequent business traveler to China, and visitor to manufacturing facilities (but not piano), I'll stick in my two cents. (My next trip is end of October.)



I visit China twice a year to talk to manufacturers, mostly for small electronics and some toys.

China is a large and diverse country. Beijing, Shanghai, and the Pearl River manufacturing cities of Guangzhou and Shenzhen, etc, are more different than say, California and New York. Even the languages are different and someone from Beijing has a hard time understanding "Shanghainese".

Chinese manufacturers support the full range of quality. You're free to turn the "quality dials" up or down as you wish to get the price/performance you want (at least in my area, electronics and plastics moldings, etc).

Chinese people in the cities are very aware of Western brands. However, they don't seem to care if they get real items or knock-offs. Inside China, a Western name on fashion and style items can signify quality or status.

They'll copy anything, like this not-quite-an-iPhone



or these not-quite Rolex, Patek Phillipe, etc:



(I'm actually very surprised there aren't fake "antique" Steinways flooding the market. As far as I know, most Chinese plates are wet-sand casted because the cost to hand-finish them is low. It would be trivial to cast a copy of a Steinway plate... I guess the risk/reward ratio hasn't quite made it worth while.)

However, China Manufacturing, when you are willing to pay for the best managed plants, is capable of greatness. We all know, of course, that some very high-quality Apple products are manufactured and assembled in China at Foxconn.

In the American and European markets, I think we'll know Chinese pianos have arrived when they no longer try to hide their Chinese roots, as the Japanese companies embraced their Japanese-ness during the late 60s and 70s. Japanese Yamaha makes no secret of their Japanese heritage. It's (rightly) a point of pride. Yamaha is an amazing company with an fantastic history that makes everything from outboard motors to stereo equipment to pianos.

China has a very motivated young labor force. Visiting the Chinese cities you see a dynamic exciting place unlike any U.S. city. Young people are optimistic and want to work, and work hard. (Even with a 9.5%+ unemployment rate here, we can't find qualified people to work at our company here in California!). I suspect that we will soon see Chinese pianos that are as good as anyone else's, that proudly come from China, and that emphasize their Chinese heritage, at least for the Western markets. I would love to see an eastern-Styled case for a piano.

Right now, there just isn't a market for high-end Chinese pianos. Inside China, those that can afford any price will probably by Steinway, Bosendorfer, etc. And outside of China, people are still skeptical. It will be an uphill climb for them, but I see no reason why they won't follow the same trend Japan did, where they went from "shlock" to "high quality" in area after area (cameras, motorcycles, cars, pianos, etc.)



If I were shopping today for a practice room piano or small grand that was on a good point on the price-performance curve, I certainly would consider a Chinese piano.

Off-topic: i would love to visit China one day..I've been to other parts of Asia and it was very DIFFERENT. im hoping my second visit will be better and much more enjoyable.

My experience is that the things you have to watch out for are the metals and coatings.

I've had Chinese channel locks that broke when I gripped hard on a pipe. Chinese "stainless" rusts, just not quite as fast as CRS. A friend reports a broken cast iron part turned out to have old ball point pen springs embedded in the material.

The furniture coatings I've seen start out very shiny and pretty, but I can't figure out what they are. I've eliminated shellac, lacquer, and varnish. The mystery stuff on the dining room table reacts with something that was spilled on it in a strange way, and gets permanent lumps. It's also very soft, and gets fine scratches just from ordinary paper towels. There are also the lead paint issues with children's toys.

So, I'd say wait 10 - 20 years and buy that Chinese piano used when you know what's what.

There's an aspect of "Chinese" with respect to quality that people do not quite understand in the states, because they are not thinking first at home.

In the states it is very hard to make something cheaply. Same with Europe, at least Western Europe. The cost of labor, materials, regulation, taxes, etc. means everything has some lowest-possible-cost which is not all that low.

But in China (and some other places) the bottom is far lower. So western companies who want to offer something staggeringly cheap (like the big "W" who I won't name as I work with them), and care little about quality, can ONLY get it in places like China.

That doesn't mean the top is lower as well. It just means the stuff we are flooded with at incredibly low prices is all made in China and so that etches itself into our mind set. And by inference we assume it is all cheap. Or that somehow it must be cheap. In the (much smaller) market for higher end items, Chinese products have a smaller relative market share not just because they have not pushed into that market, but because we have pulled them into the lower end market and they went with the flow. Don't assume that means they cannot do higher end work, just they went where the money was.

I once heard a talk by a senior executive at Microsoft explain why they were so successful. He started off by asking "do you think it is because we make the best product"? (Scenario: this was a user group meeting of a competing product, and so there was a resounding "no" -- it was a hostile audiance, who thought their product was so much better).

He went on to say "no, it is because we make one good enough". His message was that the public did not want "great", they only wanted "good enough", and once you get just a little past "good enough" people in general no longer want to pay more for something "a bit better than good enough".

Think about it in regards to China.

Thanks for all your replys,it was very interesting.
I was kind of hoping that someone who actually owns one of these pianos give me their opinion on them.I might put it in another post .Thanks.

Microsoft is a very strange and special case, because they own something that's really an engineering standard: the operating system for PC's. When you own the universe, your product doesn't have to work. That's what made Gates rich.

Could you point to the advice you received here not to buy any piano with Chinese materials?

If the correct attention is given to piano made in China that was produced with a good high standard a good tech like Venables & Sons can make all the difference.

The brodman being the more expensive of the 2 has a beautiful tone, however the Venables and Sons pianos have custom options, like different hammers , strings and so on that make them very unique for that price point.
You should talk to Chris or Will, they are fantastic, they always help me out whenever I am in piano distress and I haven't even purchased my piano from them!!

He will tell you what you need to know and educate you on this subject, ask him thing, tell him your worries. He is a true gentleman and he will certainly not sell you sour grape... (he does have them)

Good luck and give him my regards

That is surely true, but probably only part of the truth. The list of the parts of the piano which were not imported from China would be much shorter than the opposite. I get the impression that there is some kind of a stigma toward Chinese parts, even for even the dealers of said pianos, to (mis)represent them this way.


I assume you mean "No parts made in Asia." This gets bounced around a fair bit, but no one seems to be able to substantiate it. ANY piano? What parts do Steinway, Schimmel, Sauter, Steingraeber, Förster, Blüthner, etc (there are more) import from China or Asia? I was under the impression they use US and European woods, strings, hammers, felts, keys, plates, actions, fittings, etc. If you have any factual information on that it would be interesting to know. If not, I suggest holding back a bit on such generalized statements.

I have had a good experience with my Chinese piano. I think you would be cheating yourself to not consider a piano simply because of Chinese parts. Buy the best piano that is within your budget.

+1

First of all, as I've said so many times before, there are Chinese pianos and then there are..... "Chinese pianos"

At the present time, it's still a mix of variable quality ranging from o.k - good - very good.

Those which are "very good" - this despite the continuous denial that this is happening by some here - are now starting to equate and in some cases, even surpass the quality of other, more established makes.

In each of those cases, crucial parts and components such as hammers, strings, even soundboards are most typically not of Chinese origin but often either American or German. Wondering if this is a coincidence.

These pianos also often have designers, respected personalities from the West who insist that only certain parts must be used in their pianos to accomplish their goal of improved quality or excellence.

In reverse, Chinese parts are finding themselves increasingly in pianos made elsewhere including Europe and U.S.
If in doubt, always ask for "specs", no maker would *not* quickly point out Renner hammers or Renner actions were they in fact used in their pianos. If there is 'silence' or no specs - you know what to expect...

So it's a mixed bag out there.

It's neither the hyping of China nor the denying that things are going on over there pretty major that is telling the whole story.

Back to playing the piano,looking at price tag and making up one's mind what's making sense in today's market.

It will not only be highly individual - but a mixed bag.

For some time to come.....

Norbert

In response to Supply: I tried to check your website, but it seems not be be available at this time. I thought I might find answers to my questions there.

In terms of parts made in China, I have done some research specifically on plastics in pianos and not found any specific answers that are available to members of the general public (like me). I find this interesting in itself. If one only put parts made in Europe into one's pianos, wouldn't one boast about it? So I will ask you:

Where is the plastic made that is used in piano keytops?

Where are the metals used in piano building mined? Smelted? Combined to produce alloys like brass?

Where are the glues and finishes used in piano construction made, and what are the countries of origin of their components?

If the answers to any of these include Asia, there we are. And if the answers are not known, why not?

I have a Brodmann 187 purchased from Venables 18 months ago, and I played a couple of the Venables-branded pianos when selecting it. I have absolutely no qualms in recommending either, my piano tuner/technician praises the build quality, and pianist friends are also positive.

Perhaps all those other people are being polite, and of course I have a confirmation bias, but I would not take baseless criticisms of Chinese manufacture seriously.

And Yamaha and Kawai, parts from China, Vietnam, Indonesia... who nows where else?

And where comes the special "Tharan" plastic for the key covers? Which is - for Steinway pianos - applied by their subsidiary Kluge in Remscheid, Germany?

Does Kluge produce from crude or raw oil (..coming from the north sea, for the European origin..) their own plastic material and melt it with ceramics so that the "grippy" surface of Tharan is generated?

..or may it be the case that the basing plastic comes from Turkey, or Thailand, or Vietnam, or from otherwhere else in Asia..?..

..and what would this matter? ..where the crude oil for plastic key covers comes from?

The "american or european origin" of soundboards means that the wood (!) once grew in Italy, Austria, Czech or Alaska.

But who fabricates the whole soundboard? Do the chinese buy a whole soundboard at Strunz, Bavaria? Or do they put it togehter on their own? Part-part. It may depend. And who does the fitting-in procedure when a soundboard is "married" for life to a piano rim?

THAT is a VERY quality-relevant question.

..and I don't try to tell you that no chinese piano worker would be able to produce a soft-gentle-slipping-into-stiff-right-tension-fitting assembly rim-soundboard. Yes, there are chinese workers who are able to do this.

...but how many? ..and Where are they, maybe besides of the Hailun factory, only for example?


..and if their work will become "too expensive" (..for nut cracking "economists" in the comfortable offices it will, at any time, inavoidable..) then you go to ... Vietnam? Cambodia? Indonesia? Kazhakstan?

.. ahh - Afghanistan. Or?
;-)

Dear folks: we live in "globalization times". Information is everything. Piano quality - It doesn't rely on the angles of anybody's eyes, ok? It relies on craftmanship. Which has to be generated, educated, applied, with the necesseray tools, with the necessary knowledge, with the necessary materials, with the necessary time to do it right, with the necessary respect.

The last one is often missing. In the minimum.

My piano? Coming from America. Wholly. There is no single piece of asian nor european originating material in it.

But the men who designed it were born germans..

:-)

Early globalization. Proud to have bought "american."

norbert, considering the source (and bias), you need to elucidate when you make such statements as above. examples, please.

regarding outsourcing -- it's a double-edged sword. boeing, in their development of the 787, chose to outsource the production of many parts of this airplane, which has resulted in billions in over budget and way behind schedule. my company has tried outsourcing some software development projects to india with poor results. one must expect that much gets 'lost in translation'.

Exactly my point. Where is the information? I see mostly speculation, un-informed opinion and many assumptions, not only in your post. But very little information, sadly.

Dear Entheo:

I would love to answer your question directly but would be immediately accused of *self-promotion*....

Perhaps do a little search of the many testimonials and letters from owners of certain makes which can be found all across this board.

Many have done in-depth comparative reporting which might be worth reading.

And don't forget to compare specs of pianos in same or similar class.

Together with simply trying out pianos, it may help to shed some light on things...

Norbert

norbert: i rarely get my blood up about these types of things but yours is the worst kind of self-promotion -- making unsubstantiated claims and then expecting those who question those claims to substantiate them.

if you have facts, state them -- that's not self-promotion, that's fact. if you don't have facts, i respectfully submit to you that you should refrain from making misleading characterizations in support of the products you carry.

and by the way -- if you are suggesting that i haven't played these chinese wonders, i have. pretty on the outside, prosaic on the inside. long way to go before they compete with anything that actually sounds good.

Supply: I asked for information from you about sources of certain specific materials. Do you know the answers, or, if not, where I can find them?

In any event, in my view this debate, which has happened before, does not make much sense. The question is not whether a piano (or its parts) is from China (or anywhere else, for that matter). The question is whether it is a good piano.

A bad piano is a bad piano because it is a bad piano. It is not a bad piano because it is made in (or has parts from) China (or anywhere else). If the parts are flawed in a way that makes the piano a bad piano, they are flawed, and the piano will not be a good one, or a good buy. The piano is a bad piano, but not BECAUSE of its origin, but rather BECAUSE it is made of poor components badly assembled.

Take another look at the OP. I really have no information to suggest that this original post is anything but on the level, yet it reads like many a thread starter written by someone with an interest in getting people to disagree with the premise, and to disagree vociferously.

What do we have here as our thread starter? It begins with a vague statement of anti-Chinese product sentiment linked loosely to PianoWorld ....



This is a deft touch. Vague but suggestive. It's followed by a truly aggressive declarative statement masquerading as an innocent question:




That's a real pot-boiler, isn't it? This seems well designed to get lots of people to say all sorts of positive things about Chinese materials and Chinese pianos. After all, vague China bashing will no doubt bother many people who own Chinese made pianos.

Again, I have no notion that this particular poster is anything other than what he claims to be. But if I were a sock/shill for a dealer in Chinese pianos or pianos with Chinese components, I couldn't have written a better post to instigate good testimonials for products like mine.

Metals typically are recycled more than mined. Melting down scrap has been standard procedure since long before the word "recycling" was coined. It's a lot less expensive than extraction from ore. That's what happens to all those old cars that go through the shredding machines. And it's not a bad thing at all, because they analyze the molten mixture and add what it needs to make the alloy they want.

???

Worrying about being accused of self promotion hasn't stopped you around 10,000 times in the past.

Self promotion doesn't have anything to do with whether what you say is true, false , or somewhere in between..

Questions? I would call them speculative assertions that you are unable to back up:


I am not saying I know. I am saying (and thank you for confirming) that you do not know. Yet you appear to stand by your generalized and unfounded assertion. I'll add, that to all of your three examples, Germany has been a world leader for decades. They could go abroad to source those materials, but they likely get them a few hours down the Autobahn...

I'll tell you why. Because it does not matter if the copper ore that ends up being part of a brass pedal comes from Chile or Sumatra. This thread is about piano parts used in production. If you want to split hairs about elements and atoms, maybe start a new thread on that...

Rumor has it that at Fazioli they are currently sweeping the shop floor with a Chinese broom. Does that count for you?

Well said.

Those who keep reading anythig I say as *self-promotion*, are sadly missing the very point I'm trying to make when discussing things here.

They are making repeated statements in either self defence or defence of lines they are carrying themselves.

What they overlook is that they are starting to insult their own Chinese customers who are increasingly looking at their motherland's accomplishments, both in art, industry and commerce.

What could be called "self-promotion" by some, could soon become "self-destruction" by others.

Time to cheer up and look the real world in the face.

Norbert

norbert -- i have no vested interest in chinese pianos one way or the other. what bothered me about your previous post is your statement that some "chinese pianos"... "are now starting to equate and in some cases, even surpass the quality of other, more established makes." i would not consider consumer testimonies qualified to substantiate that claim. if you have qualified sources that back up that claim -- e.g. larry fine, reputable reviews & product comparisons from vetted sources -- then by all means, post that information! we're all here to learn...

Thank you, no problem: Piano Buyer already rates some of the Chinese pianos such as Ritmmueller, Brodmann and Hailun slightly higher than Kawai GM or Yamaha GB grands and at same level as Kawai GE, Yamaha GC gands.

At same time,Perzina verticals are rated a notch higher than Yamaha Verticals, also made in China.

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/45.html

The result of this can only be that "made in China" is no longer by itself telling the whole story.

The second observation is that a few Chinese makes have advanced in only few years what took others decades to accomplish.

At same time I would surmise if Japanese companies would be willing to move their entire production from Japan to China and remain all factors equal - they would be able to build exact ame quality as in Japan.

The reason why some of their Chinese built pianos are not the same as built at home is "pre-determined" being political and economical in nature. Even the Germans would argue today that in case of engineered mass production and outside cutting edge technology, things can just about be done anywhere having less and less to do with China or for that matter any other country of manufacture.

None of this should show a sense of superiority - a position conveniently taken by others - nor is it meant as "self-promotion".
It is based on the fact the the world around us is rapidly changing with blurring boundaries emerging to what can only be called a "mixed bag" of things.

Years ago I said there will be the "absolute top pianos" in the world and then "a big bag of everything else in it"

That "big bag" is still getting bigger, presenting bigger threats to some, greater opportunities to others.

Anybody can choose which position or emotion suiting best.

Just don't forget to check latest directions taken by companies, corporate acquisitions of sorts, developments of latest models and products - it's easy to fall behind times....

Norbert

As much as I respect Larry Fine, and Steve Cohen I still don't quite understand the rating system. It is pretty good but the question I asked about the W Hoffman Tradition being in the Professional Grade category but the W Hoffmann Vision is not.

Also the Yamaha P-22 is made in china, it gets recommendations all over PW and some articles in Piano Buyer, but it is rated in the category of Consumer Grade.

Now the Brodmann PE Grands & Uprights are in the Consumer Grade category but they seem to get great reviews in articles, PW and owners, sellers...

I believe until some of those consumer grade pianos move up into at least the Professional Grade category, how can they be taken seriously by ratings from Piano Buyer.

Piano Buyer states that "[i][i]Consumer-grade pianos, on the other hand, are built to be sold at a particular price, and adjustments to (i.e., compromises in) materials, workmanship, and method and location of manufacture are made to meet that price. Most are mass-produced, usually in Asia, with less in the way of custom refinement of individual instruments.
As discussed elsewhere in this publication, globalization and the computerization of manufacturing have, to some extent, blurred the distinction between performance- and consumer-grade pianos. Increasingly, makers of performance-grade instruments have been creating lower-cost brands by manufacturing instruments and components in countries with cheaper labor, while makers of consumer-grade pianos have been bringing to market higher-quality models by perfecting automation and sourcing parts worldwide. This has created difficulties in classifying brands by means of a two-grade system, both because some brands defy such classification, and because of the bottleneck that results from the attempt to rate too many brands relative to one another in a restricted space.
To alleviate this problem, I have spun off a third type of piano, called Professional Grade, intermediate between Performance and Consumer, consisting of some of the lower-level performance-grade brands and some of the upper-level consumer-grade ones. The pianos on the performance-grade side are lesser product lines from companies principally known for their higher-grade brands. They inherit some of the quality of their superior cousins, but otherwise are quite different. The instruments on the consumer-grade side are brands that in recent years have become so advanced in their designs, materials, and manufacturing technologies that they now rival some performance-grade pianos in musicality and quality control, and are sometimes recommended as a substitute for them, often at a lower price. Truthfully, a number of the consumer-grade brands could fit this description, but I've labeled here as professional grade only those that have received the greatest market acceptance as instruments suitable for professional use. I'm sure, in time, others will follo[/i]w."[/i]

So with that statement, are the Chinese ones better than the Indonesia made pianos. Not putting any dealer on the spot, but certain dealers here on PW refuse to sell Chinese pianos, they don't bash them, they just feel they need more time to prove themselves. According to this rating system I would think so too, but then you have dealers (no names) who swear a Chinese piano well-prepped will perform better or as good as some of those pianos in the professional category. Some dealer’s sell they own Brands that are made in China, and then shipped to them, including European & Canadian dealers.

There are 3 levels under consumer grade pianos:

Upper Level, Mid Level, and Entry Level, is that the same as $$$$ $$$ $, they are made to a price point, right?

When it comes to pianos coming out of China two categories should take care of all:

1) Decent
2) Crap

Not bashing, just saying...

P.S. In the latest edition of Piano Buyer the Bechstein Academy is not rated at all.

Very astute observation and it does bear asking. We get so many pot-stirring threads these days!

The new category of "Professional Grade" has been around for about 10 minutes. It's like a consolation prize for Japanese pianos that used to represent the good compromise between performance and price but then got too dang expensive. Add to that some budget-minded European lines that are hard to find outside of the biggest markets. It's either the tipping point between production level pianos and "hand made" pianos or this big crack in the divisions that comes from having a lot of substance but not enough style.

I have owned my HG178 for two and a half years, and think it to be a high quality instrument. I like the touch, the tone, the appearance, and am pleased that it stays in tune well. It is very similar to certain other brands of pianos, and pretty different from others. You must determine what you prefer in tone and touch. Chris Venables can no doubt guide you about how to evaluate the quality of a piano, and how to think about touch and tone. Based on the quality of his posts here, I'd be inclined to attribute knowledge and integrity to him. See if he can show you the difference between the instrument you are considering and a much more expensive and sought-after piano. Only you can determine if those differences are important to you and worth the extra expense.

I have heard that Chinese pianos of 20 or so years ago were of low quality. I have seen a very limited number of these that didn't offer the tone or touch that I prefer. They did seem durable, however.

Hop

Alliwally,

I mean no disrespect, but is it possible you are suffering from paralysis by analysis? Fine's intent is to provide a rough guide to a rapidly-changing world of piano manufacture. Pretty good is good enough IMO.

I mean.... how long has it been now.....two years, three years, four years....that you have been sizing up the piano market looking to make a purchase? In the meantime you open threads, post about what you would have no problem buying, express a like of certain pianos, but in fact buy nothing.

It's possible that having an acoustic piano in your home isn't the best thing for you, and that's A-OK, but picking apart minor inconsistencies in Fine and exploring little loopholes in sourcing disclosure by piano makers is a waste of your time. If you can't get past all that stuff and relate directly to the instruments after all this time, you probably shouldn't be advising other people what to do or not do.

Turandot, (is it William)

In some of your posts you encourage people to feel free to express their opinions, because this is an open forum, whether right or wrong. To open with I mean no disrespect, then bash me for not buying a piano yet because I expressed my opinion.

Well first of all, you did not hurt my feelings, I will continue to post and advise people on pianos. Why, because you are not a moderator and cannot stop me.

Have A Nice Day!!!

You left out that all the Chinese pianos you named are rated lower(one or two levels depending on how one counts) than Kawai RX grands and Yamaha C grands. And the Perzina grands are rated(based on tentavie information)two levels lower than the Perzina verticals. And the Yamaha CF and Shigeru Kawai are in a completely different league than the Chines makes.

thanks norbert; that chart is useful. however it does beg a few questions:

the implication was that some chinese pianos were surpassing other comparable non-chinese pianos, but it appears that chinese made is being compared with chinese made ("Perzina verticals are rated a notch higher than Yamaha Verticals, also made in China"), which is a non-starter.

it's difficult to know from that chart whether we're comparing apples to apples due to the price overlaps among levels. what would be useful to know is whether a (e.g.) $5k vertical made in china is seen as surpassing the quality of a $5k vertical made in japan.

For a variety of reasons Larry did not feel he had sufficient information to confidently rate the Hoffmann Vision series and Bechstein Academy series. He felt more comfortable omitting them.

Thank you. I understand a little more about the process of elimination, the OP's subject matter. The process of rating pianos must be tedious, it can't please everybody but like I said, it is a good guide.

Again, the debate here is taken directions not necessarily useful or condusive to rational thinking.

There is no "case for Chinese parts" or "against it"

China is doing what China is doing - we in the West better take note and stop belittling this giant. If their rockets and future space stations fall apart - it'll be their problem not ours.

If their economy goes for a bath and will need money from the Afgahns, it'll also be their problem.

The discussion about "Chinese parts" leads nowhere nor does it make any sense. No some are not, yes some are as good as anywhere else. It makes no difference in the overall.

Let's get this one clear: the onus in the future will not be on those charging below the mean, but above. It's not Hailun's or Brodmann's problem to prove they are making as good pianos as Yamahas or Kawais at twice the price.

It's a problem for those who charge a price for which one could get a much better, if you will - "higher rated" - piano.

Need examples? Read Pianos Buyer if you will, start here:
http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/44.html

Still eager to spend same amount for a tier 3 piano when you could have bought one from tier 1? Or from 4 when you could have had one from 2? A 100% European or American made piano with 0 Oriental parts. Why is this not happening?

By sheer logic, the heat is not on lower priced stuff but on higher. Or same if quality of one product over the other is arguable higher.

Which is exactly the reason the perennial nay-sayers on the board here are fighting for their own market share.

It'll be a loosing battle and they know it.

What we as a nation and society will have to do is to offer product that will be competing against everything else out there.
No prisoners taken.

When the global "world economy" will be hitting us in earnest, you'd better be ready. Nobody will be wasting time talking about "parts" - but whole sectors of the industry.

As already are.

Talking about "Chinese parts" and "Chinese pianos" will by then be in the comic section of your local newspaper.

Norbert

I am not a moderator and I did not complain to a moderator. My appeal was to you directly. Writing that you will continue to advise people because you can't be stopped says quite a bit about you.

Statements that you would have no problem buying piano X should be weighed against the fact that you have, despite years of looking arounnd and researching brand minutiae, been unable to make any choice for yourself.

It's an open forum. The fact that all opinions can be expressed does not make all opinions equal. I can also express my opinion, and that opinion is that for people who are really going to commit to a piano purchase, your advice is virtually worthless.

"if my advice is useless, why not ignore it"

Entheo,

Your point is of course a valid one, but I hope you realize that Norbert is not going to respond in any kind of forthright way.

Norbert points out the difference between Chinese pianos and "Chinese pianos". The inference to be taken is that some are much better than others. This is certainly true of models sold on the Chinese domestic market, but may or may not be true of export models. It can be inferred from his statement that he knows the difference and quite naturally chooses to sell the "Chinese pianos", whatever they are. There would certainly be no reason for him to do otherwise under the circumstances he presents.

When you ask him to be specific, he says that revealing the "Chinese pianos" would be hyping his inventory. This confirms the inference taken that Norbert regards his own inventory of Chinese pianos as "Chinese pianos".

If you push the point further, he will...

1) counter that you are unaware of the importance of "China" as an emerging piano power that must be taken seriously. In this case you should put up your umbrella!

or

2) claim that you are one of those who are simply out to stick it to him, possibly selling a competitive product in his own market.

or

3) simply disappear from the thread

The thread title "Materials from China" would certainly be an interesting one for Norbert to comment on. A good part of his Chinese brand pumping here is based on the inclusion of European upgraded materials in Chinese pianos... this of course along with European designers and European piano production experts. Virtually all of those material upgrades involve the choice of European materials: different felt, different string wire, different soundboard and rib material, etc. --IOW materials that are not sourced in China itself.

It's hard to have your cake and eat it too, but that won't stop Norbert from trying.

let's back the bus up to here:
http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/35.html

... an excellent overview of piano manufacturing by country/region. if you can get past the rather daunting list of qualifications associated with chinese brand pianos you 'might' have yourself a good value, but only time will tell.

my takeaway from the PB "New Piano Market Today" section is that regardless of the origin of parts QA (quality assurance) begins and ends on the factory floor. i know this to be true of companies in other industries that are outsourcing manufacturing -- if they have a brand & reputation to protect they must have their own boots on the factory floor (supervisory at a minimum), lest problems arrive along with the products at the dealers/customers many miles away.

turandot: yes i now realize that, and appreciate your attempt to broker détente. i fell down this rathole not because of the original topic but because of what felt like a thinly veiled (and still as yet unsubstantiated) attempt to imply that chinese quality was surpassing the quality of "more established makes" (implication to me being established brands built on their home turf).

it's proven to reveal some good information in this ferreting out process, but i think it's time to crawl out of this rathole and move on to more important things.

Indeed.

I still regard the OP as quite possibly a setup for generating exactly this kind of conversation.



TD,

I really enjoyed your deconstruction of Mr. Norbert! "Chinese pianos" indeed!

Some other factors that have not been brought up here include resale values, parts availability, quality of service and support, and longevity.

These factors ofset price advantages to varying, brand-dependent extents. In many cases these factor are moot, in others they are of considerable importance.

It is really quite a judgement call.

Post deleted.

That sounds good to me, but if it's really a question of materials per se, it's a difficult proposition. For example, if the sheep are raised and shorn in Australia, is the resulting hammer felt Australian material or German material? Is the Siberian (Mongolian) spruce tree genetically inferior to its cousin growing in the Vale di Fiemme?

You linked to Fine's map of the market. His comments about China support your own thought that having your own boots on the floor is the best way for the contractor to assure the level of quality control that is specified in the contract. Fine's comments about Chinese factory managers give the impression that if no one outside of factory staff is supervising, the work may well be shoddy. My own take is a little different. I think it's a challenge for any factory staff which predominantly builds to a standard of low price in order to meet the financial circumstances of its own domestic market, to shift gears to a higher level on OEM orders. I don't think it's anything to do with the labor force being Chinese or having Chinese cultural values. It's possible (maybe probable) that Fine doesn't either, but it's easy to interpret otherwise. If we're going to get into the quality of work to be expected of a labor force, would anyone like to speculate on whether German piano factory workers were and are able to keep the same level of effort and care when their work days, hours, and paychecks were sliced by factory ownership in the past few years?

If the OP's interest is specifically what he states it to be [that's the way I took it, PD], then his concern is about frame and case materials. Personally, I don't find these to be the most vexing issues in a piano's construction. It's pretty easy to inspect a case for fit, finish, and thickness of the stock. Frame is more likely to be an issue when it is mated with other things. How that mating is done, whose design it is done according to, how close the tolerances are, and how carefully the whole process is executed would be to me the important questions, even more important (to me) than the choice of whose soundboard wood, whose string material, or whose hammer felt material.

On the OP's brands mentioned, my own reaction to the Brodmann pianos (not the marketing) hoopla) has been positive, whether Brodamnn owns the factory (as Fine states) or Parsons Music owns the factory and supplies Brodmann. I haven't played any Venables and Son pianos, but I know Chris Venables has acquired an enviable reputation over decades and I'm quite sure he is not going to risk that reputation over some short-sighted money grab. Both his parts list and level of disclosure are impressive. There's also the advantage in dealing with Chris that he will in no way tell you that the Venables is on par with or superior to pianos that cost three times the price or that China is a force to be reckoned with. He'll explain the piano options, and give you a good basis for making up your own mind.

I am also starting to wonder what this whole discussion is all about.

If I was to buy myself a fine European piano with 100% European made parts I wouldn't give a hoot about anything being said here.

Same with pianos made 100% in Japan, U.S. Australia or wherever.

What seems somewhat unusual is that every time China comes up, it has to justify its very existence.

It is not accused "hypers" like myself starting threats here trying to convert mankind to buying Chinese pianos. Claims that some of the pianos, especially individual MODELS can be - and in many cases already are - as good as those near same tier group, is denied with an unusual rigor by repeatedly the very same crowd.

Not buyers or owners of these pianos mind you - they seem to be God forbit, the happy crowd - but competitors depending on the established image of their pianos.

The easiest solution to all of this is to avoid anything Chinese altogether.

Let's simply buy those pianos with certificates of origin clearly indicating 100% made in either U.S. Europe of Japan.

That any of the parts or components inside some of these pianos could of course also be of Chinese origin, is nobody's business and of interest to noone - nor "should" it be.

If worst comes to worst, one simply doesn't *rate* these pianos any longer: how could one?

After all and lucky for all of us, China doesn't even exist.....

Norbert

Entheo,

Norbert has chosen to re-enter through dorrway #1, his most familiar portal when confronted.

"he will...

1) counter that you are unaware of the importance of "China" as an emerging piano power that must be taken seriously. In this case you should put up your umbrella!"



It's about materials from China.

Norbert,

You once posted about the Hailun 198 that in its original form it just wasn't quite what such a fine piano should be. You referred to a subsequent change in hammers as making it one of the strongest pianos in Hailun's stable. Those upgraded hammers were of European origin. Why is this so? Is it because Hailun itself cannot produce hammers of equal quality? Is it because it made more money sense to procure rather than upgrade its own hammers? IS it for the marketing sizzle?

Why does the Hailun 180 have an Austrian solid spruce board and the 178 a lamiante? Is it because Hailun cannot fashion its own solid spruce board of equal quality with domestic materials? Is the domestic spruce so bad in appearance that it must be covered by a meniscus coating? Is it because Hailun has good enough available spruce, butt doesn't have the requisite skills? Is it simply more cost-effective to procure rather than develop from within? Is it the marketing sizzle?

You can't go on and on here year in and year out pumping guest European designers, hired European piano production experts, ex-Bosie staff, ex-Ibach ownership, ex-Bechstein chief designers, and a host of 'European' component upgrades (some of which are probably made in China itself) without impugning to an extent the materials and level of workmanship which Chinese makers possess on their own. You can't have it both ways.

You insult the membership with your ridiculous claims that some happy fools believe that China doesn't exist. The OP in this thread fully realizes that China exists. He's just not convinced that he wants to go that direction in a piano purchase. He wonders about the workmanship and materials. Is this the best you can do for him?

Tur:

Glad to answer what is only obvious:



Luckily, "some happy fools" don't represent the overall membership here. They represent their own interests pretending the world ain't changing and never will. It's exactly that presumption that serves their interest best.



The simple answer is "no" - or at least "not yet"

Hailun grands are now apparently switching in all their grands to Abel hammers, something several of us wise guys told them years ago.

Others think they *can* make it all, but then mysteriously are switching specs on their top 7' and 9' concert grands to others....

By the way, Italians don't make top hammers or strings either but can still build a very decent piano....

For those with any brain mass left there's a difference between making simply good "parts" and/or "good products".

One doesn't pre-empt the other.

The endless denial that China should be taken seriously and can build good, even great product in today's world is becoming tiresome.

The points some are trying to score here will have no bearing on producing a better piano or better products in our own hemisphere.

Which IMHO, is the very issue at hand.

Norbert

Thanks, That's a start. I will assume that the hammers come from Germany and not from an Abel boutique operation on the Ningbo campus.

Now, could you move on to the question of soundboard choice?

Why does the Hailun 180 have an Austrian solid spruce board and the 178 a lamiante? Is it because Hailun cannot fashion its own solid spruce board of equal quality out domestic materials? Is the domestic spruce so bad in appearance that it must be covered by a meniscus coating? Is it because Hailun has good enough available spruce, butt doesn't have the requisite skills? Is it simply more cost-effective to procure rather than develop from within? Is it the marketing sizzle?

I've played Hailun 178's. Although IMO the tone has more surface polish than depth, I haven't associated that with the board choice since the power and projection seems like plenty enough to me in a home or small venue piano and the tone does not seem 'dead'. So what exactly is the rationale here?

Tur, I don't know all the answers here nor do I really care.

Most German companies I know do not build their own soundboards, actions, hammers or cast iron plates, not because they wouldn't be able to do it - but because others are totally specializing in it.

Considering Ritmüller,they are using their own solid soundboards but import hammers and strings from Germany.Brodmann does same, but not in all models. Heintzman uses Maples strings and also Renner hammers, another concession to other of established quality if you will.

Compare this to Ningbo exporting action parts and whole actions to outside customers already years ago, including some rather lofty European makers. [ of course they would never admit to this...]

Fact is that it is exactly how Hailun Chen came to the attention of those who saw benefit in having made stuff in China and then insert it "secretly" into their pianos later.

Everybody knows Mason Hamlin's carbon action is 100% made in China, so is everything Essex: does this make them less desirable pianos?

If you don't like a piano like the Hailun 178 going for around $ 12-13k, you need to ask yourself which other piano does better at same price.

That's all that matters.

Ask yourself: If you do not like another, more expensive piano and couldn't afford it to begin with - would you buy it just because you think it may have "better parts"

Ask yourself....

It's the very question consumers are asking themselves in today's market everyday.

And it's not something I invented or made up myself - it's the reality of life.

Norbert

Norbert,

Thanks for staying on point.

Most German companies I know do not build their own soundboards, actions, hammers or cast iron plates, not because they wouldn't be able to do it - but because others are totally specializing in it.

Well, that's true, but Hailun has a history or producing most if not all of those things for itself and for others.

Considering Ritmüller,they are using their own solid soundboards but import hammers and strings from Germany.Brodmann does same, but not in all models. Heintzman uses Maples strings and also Renner hammers, another concession to other of established quality if you will.


It makes sense as a concession to the realities of the marketplace in that people do see willing to pay up for the upgrades. I just wonder if in the long run it's as sound a strategy as the Japanese companies' approach to building from within. BTW, I thought Brodmann was using German Strunz boards at least in the grands.

Compare this to Ningbo exporting action parts and whole actions to outside customers already years ago, including some rather lofty European makers. [ of course they would never admit to this...]

This is the big irony really. It comes down to swapping this for that. Perhaps one day we will see a German piano made exclusively of Chinese parts by German labor and a Chinese piano made exclusively from German parts by Chinese labor.

Fact is that it is exactly how Hailun Chen came to the attention of those who saw benefit in having made stuff in China and then insert it "secretly" into their pianos later.

I don't want to touch that.

Everybody knows Mason Hamlin's carbon action is 100% made in China, so is everything Essex: does this make them less desirable pianos?

In my own view, absolutely not, but again the realities of the marketplace have resulted in certain eyebrows being raised and I don't think Masons are fetching prices that would delight theer maker. There has even been criticism of how many Chinese Americans the company employs. This again is the reality of the world we live in. BTW, doesn't Hailun cast Mason's plates?

If you don't like a piano like the Hailun 178 going for around $ 12-13k, you need to ask yourself which other piano does better at same price.

I think US prices are a little lower than that, but that's irrelevant. At its street price here and taking into account its length, it's probably unbeatable. In fact, I would say it's Exhibit A at this point in making the case for laminate boards in home pianos. I wish the company would embrace that instead of fudging it and one-upping itself with a European solid board in the 180.

Ask yourself: If you do not like another, more expensive piano and couldn't afford it to begin with - would you buy it just because you think it may have "better parts"

No, the sizzle means absolutely nothing to me except that the Chinese are doing whatever it takes to stake out higher price points and the Europeans are for the most part doing whatever is necessary to keep their margins intact.

As you know, I have no problems with Chinese instruments. It is my opinion though that if all we hear about (principally from you) is a Chinese Hall of Fame featuring Stephan Paullelo, Frank Emerson, Peter Veletsky, Rolf Ibach. Lothar Thomma, and assorted ex-Bosie execs, people might get the impression that the Chinese are unable to lift their own chopsticks without Western guidance.

This might be an impression but merely an impression.

An often overlooked challenge for Asian companies that want to go international or global is the marketing aspect of international brand equity building.

For this I have already referred a couple of times here to the below article that already dates from 2007 and that now might become a bit 'outdated' in terms of the figures that are used for the resepective piano manufactures talked about; however the priciples of the article still remain valid:

Country of origin, branding strategy and internationaliszation

It is a quite long article but the graph on the last page already tells a lot.

Also as the article says: "Chinese piano companies have a long journey in the internationalisation process ....and there is no clear or simple best way to succeed". This also means that simply copying the methods used by the Western counterparts is not necessarily a guarantee for success.

This is related to the fact that as soon as they go international they loose most of their competitive advantages that are rather of a local nature (low-cost production, sourcing, distribution, service).

schwammerl.

I have been contacted by someone who knows that the thread starter is not a sock. My growing suspicions are allayed.

Nonetheless, this thread has played out in the usual sock-like dramatic form, right from the original post.

I would still ask our thread starter exactly where he saw stuff like this on PW.



Most of the threads in which someone badmouths (or even gently inquires about) the quality of Chinese pianos or Chinese components read much like this one. If he had read such a thread, he would have seen all sides of the issue and he would have seen the spread of opinion from clinical to passionate. That's why I find OPs like this one so annoying. They display a desire to be spoon fed without showing the energy or initiative to do any background work on their own. Either that or they display a simple desire to spawn internet drama.

Luc,

There was a condition attached to that statement you excerpted. I wish you hadn't left it out. It was part of the same sentence.

While Chinese companies, both private and state-supported, may benefit greatly from brining Western piano talent on board, I think there is a danger in overplaying that aspect of their piano manufacture, and a parallel danger in retailers overplaying it in their comments here. That may be a minority opinion, but there is no precedent in piano making for that approach to earning respect and ultimately higher positioning on the price ladder.

William,

The partial quote was merely used to hook on a broader perspective to this thread - Chinese piano manufacturers trying to find a wya to go global/building brand name equity and not being there yet - and trying to escape form endless discussions on their ability (yes/no) to make good soundboars, hammers etc..

As to your specific remark/opinion/question - , I agree if this would be their only long-term strategy it's unlikely it will proof to be a long lasting one.

It is always difficult to read people's minds and sometimes I think it to be even more difficult reading Asian/Chinese minds and discover if there is no 'hidden agenda'.

I believe it was Norbert who said earlier in this thread that Chinese trainees are sent to Europe to become 'master piano builder'. The question is then how fast do they learn and for how long will they still need this "Western piano talent"?

It could well be that sooner than later to a lot of this "Western piano talent' is said "thank you and bye bye" and that of the famous names quoted earlier in this thread a few will disappear from the radar if this is not the case already.

schwammerl.

I believe the negative comments are more impactful on uninformed consumers. Like many others, I discovered Piano World while shopping for my piano. After reading just a few of the posts about Chinese piano's I thought I should should avoid them. Reality set in for me after I realized that an American made piano exceeded my budget. Used pianos on Craig's list were a waste of time. Everything made in Europe is expensive. My only choices where Asian pianos. I chose a Chinese piano and am very happy with it.

The bottom line is that consumers shopping for a new piano should choose the best sounding piano within their price range. Country of origin is irrelevant.

Now wouldn't the silence just be wonderful if we just left it at that and forsook this long ago worn out discussion?

Not really - or at least "not any longer".
At least on my part....

This week we sold 2 of these "suspect makes" and the name of the designers never even came up.

Simply a matter of sound quality and - *price*.

Norbert

Okay, Norbert! That sounds like a pledge. If it happens to slip your mind, I'll refresh your memory.

Hello,

I'm writing you from France.Retired and wishing to play the piano again,could you tell me which are good brands of pianos made in America,of reasonnable price but fair quality?

Thank you for answering

Best regards

That's interesting .... a thread about Chinese parts elicits a question about reasonably priced American pianos. Will wonders never cease.

Well, aleko, you would get a better response by posting a new thread instead of tacking your question to the end of an old one, but here goes ...

American-made pianos of reasonable price and fair quality? I interpret fair to mean "rather good."

New: none (unless you think a brand new BMW is reasonably priced)
Used: a number of brands can be found used at reasonable price (including Baldwin, Charles Walter, and some Mason & Hamlins)
Rebuilt: depends on the quality of the rebuilder

No need.

Water will find its own level.

Those who stuck around for a while may remember the time when few including me extolled the musical qualities of an unknown piano called Estonia. This was long before people had heard of this make or anybody expected anything good to come out of from behind what was once the iron curtain.

Similar discussion like these abounded - and worse....

Today, nobody needs to add to the success of this piano other than giving a common "congratulations" to its many new owners.

I am confident that same will happen with other pianos including some of the Chinese. Time will pass and when looking back many will ask what the fuss was all about.

Fact is, many are already asking this now.

Norbert

Oh my. You couldn't resist yet another Estonia plug! This must be the 496th version of this post in your long and storied PW career.

Norbert is introducing his new piano action part... the Norbert

That's what I'm afraid of!

Abruptly shifting gears to honk for Estonias is not particularly reassuring.

There are certain similarities between Estonia and the Chiense brands.

1) They both have piano factories
2) They both make an attempt to sell on the US market.

That's about it.

The list of differencess could go on for pages.

You left out another similarity....

The overwhelming percentage of Norbert's posts will be tauting them!

Tur, I wasn't trying to 'honk for Estonia' but point out a development where a little known maker has become successful in very short period of time. Forgive me if I left out some others - nice of you or Steve Cohen to add to the list.

Going back 40-50 years one could of course also include Japanese pianos which, should you remember, were at first also belittled, ridiculed and certainly not taken serious.

What this means is that markets have always been changing, are changing now changing and always will.

Those who feel threatened by any of this or prefer to remain in a permanent state of denial, are free to do so "at own risk"

Meantime, life goes on.

Not that there wouldn't be perhaps someone here arguing with this as well.

Let's cheer up guys!

Norbert

Har, har, har. Yeah, right!

Sorry, your history is working against you.

Is honking the same as hyping?

No, honking just means calling attention to something in a loud ostentatious manner. Hyping means exaggerating the quality and/or advantages of something beyond the reality.

I would have a big problem stating that Norbert is hyping Estonia. The Estonia is a really attractive piano and a big success story in the US. The owner took a distressed company, targeted his market, found a receptive audience there, welcomed input from his unique direct distribution network of dealers, and, based on their suggestions, made a host of improvements in his core products. I have no doubt he has made many piano enthusiasts happy. I believe from your posts here that you yourself have a very positive opinion of Estonia pianos, at least the 190 grand. I don't regard Norbert's comments as hyping at all even though he's quite the honker.

IMO all the early dealer adopters of Estonia -- people like Irving Faust, Norbert, Rich Galassini, and Glenn Treibetz -- would like to feel that they are a big part of the Estonia success story and, due to the unique direct relationship Indrek Laul maintains with his dealers, these dealers probably have a right to feel that way. Norbert tells the tale in an ostentatious and kind of self-congratulatory way, but he's just being Norbert. If we were talking geography, he'd probably lay claim to discovering the North American continent, or at a minimum to being the first to understand its importance and vast potential (which must be taken seriously)

Now, I don't see the parallel that Norbert is drawing between Estonia and Chinese brands, but that's just a difference of opinion. There are many obvious and not so obvious reasons why that parallel is difficult, not the least of which is the marketing style and the true market target, but Chinese makers are doing things in a way that hasn't been done before, so there is no exact parallel to any other national piano industry anyway.

I don't agree with a lot of Norbert's expressed opinions here, but I must say that on this particular thread he has been very forthcoming in answering specific questions with specific answers and generally staying on point (although drawing the Estonia parallel is a bit of a detour IMO).

I don't think you, Steve C, or P.D. have had much if anything to say about the topic of Chinese parts or even Chinese pianos. All your posts here have been about your estimated tallies of Norbert's posts on certain brands. so in that sense I would say that Norbert has contributed something to the OP's understanding whereas you guys have contributed nothing. And I'm not trying to be mean or malicious in saying that. Just consider the OP's request for information. Telling him that Norbert makes the same points over and over again is not telling him that any of those points is untrue, or that you dispute any of those points. Telling the OP that he himself is lazy, smells like a sock, and should do his own research (not you) doesn't help him either.

A new member's request for current opinion is particularly valid in the case of Chinese pianos since things change so quickly regarding parts selection and because makers' stables of available models have grown quickly. Poring through the archives may not yield all that much that is useful because of those changes and because most threads on Chinese pianos get bogged down in commentary from those who have little or nothing to say about the pianos.

Actually, hyping does not require any exaggeration in content as can be seen from online dictionaries like these:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hype
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hype
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hype
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hype

In any event, I made it clear to Norbert ages ago and on several occasions exactly in what sense I was using the word "hype".

My question was meant as a joke and not at all seriously.



Reminding the OP or any poster that a dealer's posts about a brand he sells must be biased is definitely relevant. Even much more so in extreme cases like this.

I have also pointed out to you many times that a post like the one quoted in this thread is not relevant to the OP's first post.

Your last sentence again assumes an incorrect definition of "hype' which I've explained several times in the past.

No!

Telling the OP that Norbert makes the same points over and over again is not telling him that any of those points is untrue, or that you dispute any of those points.

If you have a material disagreement with the substance of what Norbert is posting, you should state that disagreement. In the absence of such a statement, one can conclude that you in fact agree with the substance of his comments, but, as a voracious reader here for many years, are personally tired of reading them and feel he shouldn't make them nearly as often.

On the definition, if your 'hype' is my 'honk', then there's no disagreement, but I like 'honk' better. It's onomatopoeic and more fun!

No what?

I've never disagreed with the content of Norbert's posts and have made that clear numerous times including within the last few days. But any absence of disagreement/agreement on substance in a particular post does not imply agreement/disagreement. Your comment again is based on an incorrect definition(or certainly not the main, first one given) of "hype".

It's not my personal definition of "hype", it's the dictionary's defintion.

The Urban Dictionary's definition is much too narrow to apply to common usage. The other two definitions have in common the idea of exaggeration,inflation, flamboyance -- IOW something overstated to achieve a desired result.Thoes definitions do not refer to substantive statements of fact that are repetive, IOW, stated over and over again ad nauseam, which is apparently the root of your irritation and Steve's as well.

It is interesting to note that irritation with excessive repetition is somewhat subjective. Steve never tires of his Pianobuyer teases and plugs while some others certainly do. You never tire of the repetitious way that threads are hijacked here. You have often stated that most threads do get hijacked at some point and that your own off-topic digressions are acceptable in that light.

Let's meet halfway on this. You're treating me with respect. I appreciate that. I also appreciate your irritation. I share it at times myself. But bear in mind that in more than ten years of reading here, your eyes have come into contact with thousands of Norbert's posts. The OP is a relatively new member. His eyes in all probability do not suffer from the affliction of reading the same old thing over and over again: whether it's Nobert's honking or the constant repetition of the advice to get any used piano inspected before purchase.. For the OP, the question of whether the substance of the information is true and factual is certainly more important than how often that truthful substance has been stated over the years before he became a member.

I think the OP would find your statement that.....

"I've never disagreed with the content of Norbert's post"

much more useful than your estimate of how many times Norbert has posted it.

If you don't see it that way, let's just agree to disagree.

It is going go take many more years until any Chinese brand can be considered to be in the same league as the top brands. Craftsmanship and dedication in aquiring the highest quality materials is something currently lacking when your company is looking to cut corners to make a bigger profit. I agree that Chinese made, half price pianos provide an avenue for many people who cannot afford the very high end to buy one that is good enough for some people. However for me, good enough wil never be something I want to own. That is why I'd rather go with a trusted 200 year old company with generation after generation of apprenticeship and quality on its side. In my lifetime, I don't think I'll ever see the day any of these Chinese piano makers will ever equal or surpass the current best.

Exactly the words uttered by Elmer Brooks, CEO of Aeolian in the 1980's when comparing his products to Yamaha and Kawai

Personally I also don't think [or hope..] that the Chinese pianos will ever become among "the best" in the world.

Which isn't what the topic of this thread was all about.

Norbert

Well, Norbert, you nay-sayers can hope all you want, but it's a fact that Chinese pianos are here to stay. You can turn a blind eye if you wish, but someday you'll see your lunch being eaten by dealers who were not afraid to look to the future. Dealers who had the wisdom and foresight to see that Chinese pianos were for real, and only going to improve in quality.

And yes, someday a Chinese piano will be considered among the very *best*.

Now that's funny!

Yeah, that's funny indeed. Norbert a nay-sayer ...

As far as the Chinese juggernaut displacing all the world's best pianos, I'm sure the same thing was said about Japanese makers once Yamaha and Kawai had gotten past the post-war "cheap Japanese stuff" bias that characterized the western market. Have these two excellent firms displaced Steinway and all the other older "greats" of the top end market? Have they sucked the air out the super high end market so that startups had no oxygen for fuel? I'm glad Fazioli and Stuart didn't listen. Shigeru and the "S" series are fine machines, but they only arose once Japan as an economy was fully developed, and they have joined that small niche market rather than owning it.

Personally, I don't think the issue is about Chinese pianos supplanting the "best" on the market today, but rather whether they are already making strong inroads in the "good-enough" realm, as Turandot correctly surmised. Let's face it, the money/volume of sales for pianos is in the Yamaha U1/GB1/C2 - Kawai K3 / GM12/ RX2 arena. These pianos supplanted the Baldwin Hamilton, Everett Studio, Knabe Studio etc. and Baldwin Howard, Story & Clark, Chickering etc. Baby grands and now they are being seriously challenged by pianos like Hailun, Brodmann, Weber, Ritmuller and a myriad of Chinese built products under private labels for companies like Bluthner, Bechstein and others.

IMHO, the consumer actually has a better selection of affordable, well built instruments to choose from than it has in many years, and as with the Japanese pianos, as time passes the "longevity" issue (usually raised by those not selling Chinese pianos) becomes moot. In the $5,000 upright and $10,000 grand arena, there are some wonderful choices that, IMHO, offer a wide variety of tone palates and action proclivity.

Whether the Chinese build a concert grand piano equal to Steinway, Fazioli or Bosendorfer is really of little economic consequence since sales numbers for these instruments is fairly miniscule. But compare some of their Baby Grands to, strictly for example, a Steinway S and I think most objective analysis would be, well, surprising to some and vindication for others.

IMHO, the REAL surprise in the industry will come when manfacturers currently using Chinese strung backs, action components and other materials yet claiming to be "made in XXXX" reveal their out-sourcing. Those who have traveled to factories abroad are already aware of this industry trend and I would dare say that, based purely on personal observation and strong intuition, I can count on ONE hand the manufacturers that I know for sure are being 100% truthful.

How many fingers does your hand have?

Norbert