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#1760897 - 09/28/11 04:34 AM Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
I beg pardon beside all participant of the Forum. I have done the next translation on english. This is my reconstruction wood hole of pinblock.

Shim the loose tuning pin with cardbord

When friction between pin and wood hole is no longer enough to provide the necessary tension of the strings on the classical technology seeks to restore pin’s wood hole or hammers pin of larger diameter, or a conclusion about the impossibility of restoring the piano
Thus, the pin can be, with some approximation, of course, be regarded as a classic bolt. And that can happen with a threaded connection, if the bolt is screwed into the nut, which has much lower strength material? It’s had bad connection and wick friction .
I don’t beats new pins (larger diameter).I am force the turning (old) pin into the seat (wood hole) while gradually screwing it in.
The most productive and durable (oddly enough) was a regular corrugated cardboard, which provides the required quality and the restoration takes place fairly quickly, with virtually no material costs without the risk of "disorder" of neighboring pins, which inevitably arises in the classic "finishing" chopping. Depending on the compound, this material allows for multiple settings for a long time operation of the instrument. Currently under my control are dozens of tools, it is recovered by this method and set up another issue with its restored pins should never be, but owing to the overall poor state of the instrument and there are only spinig more and more "foot-cloth" is already on other pins.
Technology disaster recovery chopping is quite simple, I have repeatedly led her to various reports and papers for completeness of presentation will allow myself to describe it in this article.

I can suggest a pinblock pin fixation restoring technique that, far from being classic one, is quite effective. I call it a “foot wrap” technique. This technique features its cost effectiveness and way to avoid “distuning” of the adjacent pins, which is always the case when the pin is conventionally hammered in.

First, you should loosen the “distuning” turning pin, so that the coils at the pinblock are slack. Then using a thin but strong screwdriver (bodkin) remove the string end out of the turning pin. Fully unscrew the turning pin with the string kept inserted. If you fail to do so, in some cases it will be difficult to re-tighten the string on the turning pin. Cut a 50 by 20 mm strip out of the compact corrugated cardboard (of 2-3 mm thickness). Insert it in the seat so that the cardboard filled half of the circle. Firmly place this cardboard strip so that it reached the end of a seat. Force the turning pin into the seat while gradually screwing it in. Have this done gradually in 3 or 4 steps, so as to keep the turning pin from heating. Keep screwing the turning pin into its original (“home”) fixing zone in the pinblock. Then, very gently with a small effort put the end of the string into the hole of the turning pin using a screwdriver. Adjusting and fixing the turning pin until it reaches the desired position, hold the coils of the string by a screwdriver so as to avoid their “sprawling”. I advise you, unless you have paired turning pin installed, while tightening both turning pins of the same string to obtain equal pitch level.

View the entire technology disaster recovery chopping can be seen on video footage me at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGk3dS6dKow&feature=channel
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1760969 - 09/28/11 08:27 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
With all due respect, I have never seen a shimmed piano pin that performed well. The aluminum shims of long ago were terrible, I have tried sandpaper, which lasted about four tunings before beginning to fail, and I have seen vellum and parchment tried to poor effect. These materials are simply not durable. I use them with harpsichords, but that is a different level of stress.
On the other hand, I have several pianos with fully CA'ed blocks that have felt and tuned like new pinblocks. These instruments are going on 5 and 8 years since treatment and still feel fine. I was trained in a very traditional approach, but the CA treatment is head and shoulders above anything I have tried in the last 35 years.
Regards,

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#1761031 - 09/28/11 10:50 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2466
Loc: Olympia, WA
Ed,

I don't know if CA is readily available in Kazakhstan.

Maximillyan, do you have access to CA (cyanoacrylate) glue in your area? It needs to be the type that is like water so that it penetrates into the pinblock.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#1761156 - 09/28/11 02:54 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: Reseda, California
Cyanoacrylate here is sold to the general public under the name "Crazy Glue" or "Krazy Glue".
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#1761212 - 09/28/11 04:57 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
John,

That is only half the story. Here in South Africa, we also get CA glue sold as "super glue" or "crazy glue". But this is the medium-viscosity glue!

The super-thin CA glue is not generally sold. I only found it in a rather specialised hobby-shop.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1761264 - 09/28/11 06:22 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
I use the CA from Stewart McDonald guitar supply. It can be had in different viscosities, and their water thin stuff is perfect for the job.
I bet they sell all over the world. you can get to them online, at Stewmac.com, I think.
Regards,

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#1761390 - 09/28/11 11:03 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
jayr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 75
Loc: Middle Tennessee
Do you mean to say that if you have one tuning pin that is very loose you can take it out and put the CA in it and reinsert the pin? Is there a waiting period or can you insert the pin and reconnect the string and tune?

I was taught by an RPT that the only way to tighten a pin was to tap it in. Of course that was 40 years ago.

I have tightened a whole piano with glycerin and denatured alcohol. The disadvantage is that it has to be layed down for a week. I have tried other pin restorer sold by Schaff, but was not satisfied with the result.

Enlighten me, I would like to try it.

Jay's Piano Tuning Service

www.jays-piano-tuning.com

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#1761398 - 09/28/11 11:17 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Pianolance Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/09
Posts: 1192
Loc: Nashville, TN
Eric Gloo gave me a great description of how to do this on a grand piano. Here is what he wrote to me in a private message:

Hi, I'm located in New York State.

The brand I use is ZAP, which I get from a piano supply company. It's "ZAP CA Thin CA". It is water thin, so it easily seeps into the pin block and fills the cracks. It is not expensive. So far, a 1-ounce bottle is all I've needed for one piano...and I haven't used the whole bottle.

The ingredients say: Contains ethyl cyanoacrylate

This particular brand comes with a snap-on applicator tip that lets me get down between the tuning pins without too much trouble. Probably the worst area to work is the low tenor section, before the break to the bass strings, as the tuning pins tend to be crowded in this area.

I'm not sure if this is the best method, but what I've been doing is this:

- Remove the keyboard. If you don't want to do this, remove the fall board and place some old towels on top of the keys, underneath the tuning pin holes of the bottom side of the pin block. This is just in case any of the glue drips down.

- Vacuum the area of the tuning pins, getting as much dust and stuff out of there as possible. Hold the vacuum nozzle near the tuning pins and use a long-bristled paint brush to get in around the strings and tuning pins.

- Get some portable fans going, and open the windows if you can. The fumes from the CA glue are hazardous...even if you find glue that is odorless, there are still bad fumes (probably worse if you can't smell it)

- Wear a mask rated for use with paints and adhesives

- Wear some type of gloves. I wear latex gloves.

- I have some Q-tips handy to soak up any glue that gets on the plate where I don't want it. I also have a cloth handy for the same thing.

- You DO NOT have to remove the tuning pins, nor do you have to tune the piano before applying the CA glue

- Apply a SMALL amount of glue to the base of the tuning pin, where it meets the plate...make sure to get the glue down in the tuning pin holes, not on the string coils.

- Don't try to fill the hole with liquid...although that's what may happen with some of the pins. It'll take more than a few drops...just don't soak it. You can always add more later if you need to. You won't be able to take the glue out if you add too much.

- Since Steinways don't have plate bushings around the tuning pins, you can get the applicator tip almost right down in the tuning pin holes in the plate.

- I start with the top note of the piano, and work, one note at a time.

- You may want to mark those 20 or so loose tuning pins with chalk, just so you know where they are. Those might take a little bit more glue than the others.

- Total time for glue application is 15 to 20 minutes (if that). That's my time, though...everyone probably does it differently.

- I let the glue sit for about 2 hours (with the fans still running). Then I tune. As I'm tuning, I release the tension on each pin just a tiny bit. This breaks the bond between the CA glue and the tuning pin. You might hear a tiny "ping". If you've put more glue in some holes than others, some of the pins will seem a bit tighter.

Some technicians say you can tune within 30 minutes. I've found that the longer I wait, the better the pins feel while tuning.

I haven't been charging very much for the CA glue treatment, as I'm still getting used to it. But, the stuff is not expensive, and it doesn't take long to apply it.

Hope this helps!

Eric
_________________________
Knabe 5'2" Louis XV Walnut circa 1927
Very part time piano broker.

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#1761430 - 09/29/11 12:32 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Pianolance]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
I haven't been charging very much for the CA glue treatment, as I'm still getting used to it. But, the stuff is not expensive, and it doesn't take long to apply it.

Thank you for advices on cause of the new methods slims by means of sandpaper and gluing. But I consider that this wrong uses the sandpaper and glue. Corrugated cardboard decays on small particles gradually screwing it in. Its( small particles) fill the rifts in board. The pin is provided reliable additional friction between pin and pinblock for several years
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1761483 - 09/29/11 03:00 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Pianolance]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
Some technicians say you can tune within 30 minutes. I've found that the longer I wait, the better the pins feel while tuning.

This sounds like something that I as an owner could do the day before a tuning. Would that be a good idea?
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#1761530 - 09/29/11 06:40 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: JohnSprung]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
Some technicians say you can tune within 30 minutes. I've found that the longer I wait, the better the pins feel while tuning.

This sounds like something that I as an owner could do the day before a tuning. Would that be a good idea?


If you trust yourself not to spill any glue on the plate, string coils, soundboard or anywhere else, why not?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1761535 - 09/29/11 07:03 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: JohnSprung]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
Originally Posted By: Pianolance
Some technicians say you can tune within 30 minutes. I've found that the longer I wait, the better the pins feel while tuning.

This sounds like something that I as an owner could do the day before a tuning. Would that be a good idea?


Check with your tuner. I charge less for a treatment than for a tuning and start tuning immediately. So it might not really be worth it to you when you think about the preparation. For grands the pin area should be vacuumed and the action removed or protected. For uprights the piano should be tipped on its back. And ventilation should be set up.

I was dead set against CA after the first time I tried it because the pins felt "choked". I realize now that I just used too much. I am thinking that half a bottle is about right.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1761539 - 09/29/11 07:20 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
I use the smallest tip on the glue bottle I can get. However, I have found loose pins to be more than tight enough to tune within 10 minutes. I don't know what the mechanism is that tightens, but I suppose it is just the increased surface area of contact, maybe at a microscopic scale. I don't think that the amount of CA I use is sufficient to appreciably swell the wood.
I can't, in good conscience, sell a pinblock job to someone with a 70 year old Livingston grand with a worn out action and flat soundboard, but I can make it tunable for home entertainment use for a fraction of that cost, or the cost of shimming a dozen or so pins.
I charge one hour's fee to CA a grand piano, which pays for the time to sell the job, clean the piano's pin area, apply the stuff, and put it all back together. The customers have been elated that their old family piano is once again tunable, when it looked like it was time for the trash pile.
Regards,

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#1761542 - 09/29/11 07:37 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Count me as one of the oddballs who has used Lunsford's Pin-Tite (now Schaff) for years with consistent good results. I've seen too many absolute messes left by previous technicians (dry white mess all over the plate and pins still loose).

I will admit though, it sounds as though if it's done right, it will work.

I did have one instance where I treated several loose pins with CA and they did come out feeling pretty nice after about 10 minutes.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1761558 - 09/29/11 08:23 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Ed Foote]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote RPT
I don't know what the mechanism is that tightens, but I suppose it is just the increased surface area of contact, maybe at a microscopic scale. I don't think that the amount of CA I use is sufficient to appreciably swell the wood.


I think the tightening mechanism is mostly ascribable to the fact that cured CA is very hard. Hence, the area between the tuning pin and the pinblock is filled with a material that
a) adheres strongly to the pin and the wood, and
b) is very hard, i.e. acts as a type of "grit".

There is also a theory relating to the fact that CA requires moisture to cure (which explains why it bonds skin instantaneously). In the case of a pinblock treatment, it must draw this moisture either from the surrounding pinblock (if there's any moisture to be found there) or simply from the air. So, in adittion to a simple gluing mechanism, this theory says that there may be some swelling of the pinblock wood because of the "added moisture".

Personally, I doubt this, because the glue actually acts as a moisture scavenger and dehydrates anything it comes into contact with.

So, in summary, to my understanding as a chemist, it's a "glue and grit" mechanism.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1761583 - 09/29/11 09:29 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
CA works because of exposure to moisture. The chemical mechanism is such that there is a sulphur compound in the glue that, upon reacting with water, becomes sulphuric acid. This acid breaks whatever bond is keeping the acrylic compound in liquid form, and it instantly sets. The "accelerators" sold for this type of glue are usually just a very weak acid mixture.
the amount of moisture needed for this chemical bond breaking is measured in parts per million, so I don't think moisture in the wood cells is part of the tightening mechanism beyond triggering the reaction.
Regards,

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#1761612 - 09/29/11 10:16 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
With all due respect to a fellow poster, especially an RPT, I have to correct that last posting. Ed, I'm not sure where you heard or read that, but it's pretty far from the actual facts.

The chemical mechanism has nothing to do with sulphur. The uncured glue consists of monomers (single molecules) such as methyl cyanoacrylate or ethyl cyanoacrylate. They are a liquid, and not held together by any sort of "bond". However, when the glue comes into contact with moisture (or any electron donor, also called a "nucleophile"), a chain reaction starts, bonding all the monomers into a long polymer chain. Hence, the curing is not the breaking of a bond, but exactly the opposite: it's the formation of bonds between the monomers.

Indeed, very little moisture is required to start the process, but the more moisture is present, the faster the curing goes, because more chain reactions are started simultaneously. You can bond skin in one second, but not a broken teacup.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1761624 - 09/29/11 10:36 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Mark:

Then is CA really a moisture scavenger, having hygroscopic properties? Or is moisture just needed to start the reaction? Like stacked dominos need the first one tipped with your finger, but then they do not drag you across the table as they all tip over.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1761814 - 09/29/11 04:44 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Jeff:

I would say it's indeed a moisture scavenger. Any moisture that comes into contact with the CA immediately starts a chain reaction.

Not that the first domino stone "drags" you either, but to use your analogy: Yes, I agree, you can tip the entire domino chain by tipping only the very first stone, but you can tip a long domino chain much faster by tipping each 10th or 20th stone, or by starting from both ends. The more tips there are, the shorter the time in which the entire chain falls.

In chemical terms: each molecule of water can start a new chain reaction in the CA glue. This means that the more moisture you have, the more chain reactions you can have, and they are actually running simultaneously.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1761839 - 09/29/11 05:29 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Mark R.]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1228
Loc: Tennessee
>>The chemical mechanism has nothing to do with sulphur. The uncured glue consists of monomers (single molecules) such as methyl cyanoacrylate or ethyl cyanoacrylate. <<

Hmm, then I wuz told wrong. I do know that the glue is corrosive, as I have taken a new pin out that had been treated, and it was totally rusted.
be glad I ain't a chemist,

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#1762083 - 09/30/11 03:47 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Ed Foote]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote RPT
I do know that the glue is corrosive, as I have taken a new pin out that had been treated, and it was totally rusted.


Wow, I certainly wouldn have expected this. It's the first time I've head of CA-related corrosion (if indeed the CA was the cause). Makes me wonder whether this method is so good after all!

Originally Posted By: Ed Foote RPT
be glad I ain't a chemist,


But I'm glad you's a tuner!
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1762144 - 09/30/11 07:29 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Judging from this warning, CA glue is corrosive.

This may warrant a new thread.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1763159 - 10/02/11 01:20 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Loren D]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Loren D
this warning[/url], CA glue is corrosive.

This may warrant a new thread.

If glue has such chemical feature, I consider it is impossible use.
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1763196 - 10/02/11 03:16 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
JohnSprung Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: Reseda, California

No danger, CA glue is not corrosive.

Some accelerators used with it contain water and even acid, so they are corrosive. It works without them, but may take half an hour rather than a few seconds.

Simple answer: CA good, Accelerators bad.
_________________________
-- J.S.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690

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#1763304 - 10/02/11 10:53 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4223
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

If we are talking about only a tuning pin or two a 32nd can be planed off a piece of hardwood with a hand planer; this ends up having a natural curve to it and can be placed into the tuning pin hole with satisfactory results for some time.
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

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#1763952 - 10/03/11 01:20 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos
this ends up having a natural curve to it and can be placed into the tuning pin hole with satisfactory results for some time.

not to ram pin ,only we shall screw pin
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1764218 - 10/03/11 09:56 PM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Loren D]
Sparky McBiff Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/10
Posts: 1112
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Judging from this warning, CA glue is corrosive.


"Corrosive to electronic circuit boards and components".

When the claim that CA is corrosive to these materials we have to consider what materials they are actually talking about since they don't actually specify.
Perhaps they are talking about the effect on the circuit board substrate itself (the dielectric) which is usually a type of woven glass-resin and epoxy but is sometimes polytetrafluoroethylene (ie. Teflon) or woven glass and polyester. Or perhaps they are referring to the actual conductive tracings on the board which are usually made of copper.
I would be a bit hesitant to assume that the word "corrosion" automatically refers to the effect on all metal since they may very well have been talking about the effects on the non-metal parts of the circuit board.
I also know for a fact that the airline industry uses CA adhesives on many types of metal fasteners when building aircraft in order to prevent their loosening over many years of vibration due to flight. I'm sure that they wouldn't be using them if corrosion was a problem.
_________________________
Hailun 198







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#1765560 - 10/06/11 12:03 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Sparky McBiff]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Sparky McBiff
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Judging from this warning, CA glue is corrosive.
I also know for a fact that the airline industry uses CA adhesives on many types of metal fasteners when building aircraft in order to prevent their loosening over many years of vibration due to flight.


The other act glue join pin-pinblock. Such peg will much bad revolve after hitch . Or completely you will not be able tuning piano
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1767661 - 10/10/11 12:12 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Форум "Классика" и настройка фортепиано
]Предыстория, послужившая основной причиной написания данной статьи, достаточно банальна. В широко развернувшейся дискуссии на форуме «Классика» по поводу примитивных, но дешёвых и эффективных методов восстановления строя сильно изношенных пианино советского производства, столкнулись две, прямо противоположные тенденции решения данного вопроса.
Представители классической школы настройки, задающие общий тон на форуме и являющиеся основным его контингентом, приняли методику буквально «в штыки». Объяснение этому весьма и весьма простое, так как методика позволяла удовлетворительное обеспечение качества восстановления работоспособности инструментов, причём в короткие сроки, без привлечения профессиональных настройщиков и без значительных материальных затрат.
Надо отдать должное «метрам настройки», которые в течении довольно длительного времени пытались просто игнорировать методики, ограничиваясь короткими, язвительными и, на их взгляд, довольно остроумными, замечаниями. Затем, по мере массового присоединения к дискуссии широких слоёв населения, так или иначе связанных с возникшим на постсоветском пространстве кризисе неудовлетворительного состояния многочисленного парка инструментов, приняли, опять же на их взгляд, «Сократовское» решение, по принципу «нет человека – нет проблемы» и тема на форуме была закрыта, дабы не мутить сознание потенциальных потребителей услуг профессиональных настройщиков.
Подобное развитие событий, безусловно, было оправдано простой логикой, имеющей в своей основе экономические корни. Преимущества социалистического строя позволяли сделать музыкальную подготовку населения и музыку, как и другие направления искусства вообще, действительно массовыми. Данная статья не является дискуссионной в плане качества такой массовости, но, тем не менее, всё молодое население Союза, на первоначальном этапе жизни, имело равные возможности, ну а в дальнейшем, вполне естественно, всё зависело от наличия, либо отсутствие соответствующих способностей и, как высшим их проявлением - таланта.
Развал административно-командной системы управления государством поставил население постсоветского пространства перед дилеммой, либо согласиться с тем, что, действительно, «не каждая кухарка может управлять государством» и музыка должна стать атрибутом только немногочисленной элиты, либо попытаться сохранить накопленный положительный опыт социалистического строя и, хотя бы на переходный период кризиса государственных экономических отношений, когда наиболее «обделённая» часть населения, постепенно вымирая в сложившихся экономических условиях, не может позволить себе не только наличия работоспособных музыкальных инструментов, но и детей вообще, попытаться «остаться людьми», а не рабами кучки негодяев, разворовавших все общенародные материальные ценности и пытающихся присвоить себе и ценности духовные.
В таких условиях, «утопающий хватается за соломинку» и предложенная методика как раз и являлась такой соломинкой. Внукам уходящего поколения представлялась реальная возможность конкурировать с малочисленной группой зазнавшихся отпрысков нынешних нуворишей, что, естественно, значительно увеличивало вероятность выявления действительно талантливых людей и, как следствие, сохранение позиций в духовной сфере государства в целом, удовлетворяя при этом духовные потребности большинства населения.
Но не только (и не столько) революционные преобразования в экономике явились причиной кризиса. Как известно, сейчас музыкальная история переживает качественный скачок в производстве музыкальных инструментов. Электроника достигла таких высот, когда уже качественные характеристики многих музыкальных инструментов нисколько не отличаются от традиционных, а возможности их становятся даже значительно шире. Электронные пианино последнего поколения являются характерным примером таких достижений симбиоза науки и производства. Их сегодняшняя цена, конечно, не идёт ни в какое сравнение с ценой старых инструментов, она на порядок выше, что явно не способствует их массовости на бывшем постсоветском пространстве.
Профессиональная когорта настройщиков в этих условиях заняла свою вполне естественную позицию, в основе которой, не менее естественно, лежали экономические соображения. Предвидя аналогичное развитие событий, были буквально «свёрнуты» те многочисленные учебные курсы, которые настройщиков готовили, преследуя при этом единственную цель максимального сужения контингента настройщиков. Частично это произошло естественным путём, в результате раздробления государства, утерей профессиональных связей, сменой поколений и т.п. Кроме того, «бедные» государства постсоветского пространства не могло финансировать такую профессиональную подготовку, считая её далеко не первоочередной, в условиях, когда население просто-напросто нищенствует – «музы молчат», если нечего есть, ну а частные «конторы», которые в первый период «разрослись как грибы», потенциальным энтузиастам этого дела, были далеко «не по карману», ну не хотели «ассы» учить своих потенциальных конкурентов, или, хотя бы взамен на такие «дарственные» жесты и уступки, предпочитали извлечь из этого максимальную прибыль, несоизмеримо увеличивая стоимость курсов.
Необходимо отметить, что и в советские времена, особым «рвением» подготовки настройщиков, учебные заведения по их подготовке, не отличались. Несмотря на кажущуюся простоту этой работы, настоящих профессиональных настройщиков всегда было мало. Была довольно многочисленная и вполне достаточная масса ремесленников, которые, довольствуясь «нищенским» государственным материальным содержанием, приводили в кое-какой порядок многочисленный парк инструментов музыкальных учреждений, музыкальных школ и сельских клубов. При этом, каждый из них, делая «умный вид» и оперируя профессиональным сленгом и «околонастроечными» выражениями, всегда пытались улучшить своё, действительно «незавидное» материальное обеспечение, буквально «выцыганивая» дополнительную оплату, якобы за сверхнормативное качество своей обычной, во многих случаях далеко не профессиональной, работы.
Дело в том, что настоящий настройщик должен обладать длительным опытом работы и, самое главное, настройщиком родиться, то есть обладать уникальным природным слухом, по крайней мере, его слух должен быть на уровень выше слуха основной «серой массы» музыкантов. Вполне естественно, что таким слухом многие люди, называющие себя настройщиками не обладали; как правило, настройщиками становились несостоявшиеся, по тем или иным причинам, музыканты, либо, вообще, люди далёкие от музыки желающие «по лёгкому срубить бабки» и представляющие себе процесс настройки, как какую-то разновидность мастерства, ну, типа столярной подгонки дверей под косяки, либо «верчение» каких-то гаек и болтов и т.п. Столкнувшись с такими претендентами на звание настройщиков, руководители курсов, в лучшем случае, читали им обязательную программу, не вдаваясь в детали, так как бесполезно обучать человека без профессиональных способностей, тем более, что детализация процесса грозила росту числа конкурентов в отрасли. «Богу – богово, а кесарю – кесарево».
Настоящие профессиональные, прекрасно осознававшие, что существующая государственная музыкальная «массовость» не в состоянии достойно оценить плоды их работ, настройщики имели свою клиентуру, на уровне музыкантов мирового уровня. Они прекрасно знали «себе цену» и их положению и воспитанию претит даже идея возможности обсуждения сложившейся в музыкальной отрасли положения. Прекрасно осознавая, что «Рихтеров» с соответствующими «Стенвеями», а не «электрическими шарманками», на их век хватит, они с явным пренебрежением относятся к «выскочкам», которые реально предлагают «варварские», но, в свою очередь, эффективнее методы продления агонии музыкального кризиса на постсоветском пространстве.
Такая элита настройщиков и представлена на элитном форуме «Классика». Их абсолютно не волнуют проблемы пожилой бабушки, которая, идя навстречу пожеланиям своего внука и желая поделиться с ним своими музыкальными знаниями и навыками, полученными в «счастливое» советское время, смогла на свою пенсию перетащить не менее «пожилую» «Беларусь», которая до этого претерпела уже несколько подобных перемещений, на пятый этаж и столкнулась с проблемой недержания инструментом строя. Она падает в обморок, когда ей профессионалы с форума предлагают заменить вельбирбанк, который не выпускается промышленностью уже 40 лет и для его изготовления необходимы затраты, превышающие стоимость купленного ей за бесценок инструмента в сотни раз.
Вернёмся всё же к событиям на форуме «Классика», развитие которых и послужило причиной появления этой статьи. Будучи непрофессиональным настройщиком, автор попытался на форуме осветить проблему и вскрыть её корни. Разговаривать по существу вопроса с ним никто не стал. Всё обсуждение сводилось к тому, что все его попытки являются трудом «Сизифа» и разрешению проблемы не способствуют. Техническая сторона, как правило, не обсуждалась и сводилась, в лучшем случае, к издевательским предложениям замены предлагаемых ремонтных материалов туалетной бумагой, причём длительный, успешный и эффективный метод ремонта, который столкнулся с проблемой гораздо раньше, ещё в эпоху «развитого социализма», даже и не учитывался. Что вполне и естественно – элита, основавшая это направление форума уж «слишком далека была от народа».
Само появление этого раздела на форуме было обусловлено желанием повысить рейтинг проекта, но когда обычный рядовой пользователь понял, что процессы разрешения его проблем сводятся к рекомендациям обратиться к профессиональному настройщику (желательно из числа основателей раздела на форуме), с, естественно, несоизмеримыми затратами на устранение, порой незначительных по здравому смыслу, дефектов, то посещение форума людьми «со стороны» стало большой редкостью. Все посты на форуме постепенно стали принимать академический характер, «метры от настройки» делились своими умозаключениями, причём даже в таких доверительных отношениях всегда просматривались профессиональные индивидуальные тайны, не подлежащие общественному обсуждению. Принцип один, я сделаю, но как, это моё дело, а, соответственно, за это надо платить.
Когда автор попытался выступить с некоторой критикой такого подхода, форум буквально захлестнула волна посетителей, ведь если не говорить о проблеме, то от этого она не разрешится сама собой. Провинциальные музыканты, учители музыки, простые люди, желавшие приобщить детей к музыке – все они завалили форум серией вопросов по обсуждаемой теме. Вначале администратор форума, на фоне продолжающихся издевательств, лишил автора права отвечать на вопросы посетителей, вести с ними дискуссию, затем стал просто уничтожать все посты посетителей, в той или иной мере по смыслу связанной с темой автора. Когда он убедился, что подобные меры неэффективны, то просто удалил все материалы автора, лишив его аккредитации на форуме.
Но и этого показалось мало. Не имея даже ничтожных технических аргументов против методик автора, хотя он неоднократно призывал всех посетителей форума и его завсегдателей ответить на «болтовню» соответствующей статьёй «разгромного» характера, испытывая неумолимое желание окончательно «добить» автора, он открыл на форуме раздел, в котором предполагалось собрать весь негатив на автора, чтобы отвлечь внимание рядовых посетителей от его эффективных методик, вскрывая их якобы порочность. Несмотря на жёсткое редактирование всех постов, нещадное удаление каких бы то ни было, даже косвенных намёков на методику, раздел пришлось вскоре тоже закрыть, так как даже мало обоснованных аргументов, опровергающих методику, не появилось, а нещадная заказная брань автора, в виде призывов вернуть Сталинские и Гитлеровские времена и откровенные обвинения автора в душевной болезни, с заочной постановкой соответствующих медицинских диагнозов, только «подливали масла в огонь», работая на рейтинг автора, что вполне естественно; «рукописи не горят» и даже широко известное гитлеровское сжигание книг не привело к претворению заведомо ложной идеи. Хотя идея администрации форума была вполне естественна; рассчитывали, что всё быстро забудется и пройдёт, «как с белых яблонь дым», а «пикетные жилеты» , удовлетворяя своё самолюбие, продолжат свои дискуссии "ни о чём". Уж слишком примитивно, господа, Вы работаете, или делаете вид, что работаете, преследуя только свои узконаправленные, цеховые цели.
Конечно, форум «Классика», как частный проект, имеет право на подобные «изыски» в своей деятельности. Но не нужно было бы тогда декларировать в условиях работы форума общепринятые в сети Интернета нормы и права посетителей, которые (нормы) имеют стандартные для всех подобных изданий формулировки, лучше надо было бы «изобрести» свои законы, по которым на форуме пресекалось бы «инакомыслие», но тогда он принял бы вид газеты «Правда» соответствующего периода и пропал бы смысл его создания. Простые посетители, предполагающие, что, как большинство проектов в сети, от посещения форума такого уровня можно извлечь какую-то пользу, вводятся в заблуждение и наталкиваются на неприкрытую дискриминацию, что, безусловно, не характеризует руководство и администрацию форума, как порядочных и, безусловно, отрицательно отражается на рейтинге проекта.
На форуме «Классика» свет, естественно, «клином не сошёлся», у автора достаточно площадок, на которых его идеи критикуют, подсказывают, отрицают, принимают частично, или полностью, без унижений человеческих достоинств, но нигде, включая многочисленные иностранные форумы и сайты, нет такой атмосферы откровенного издевательства, злопыхательства, неприкрытого превосходства, самолюбования и других атрибутов, характеризующих руководство форума как не вполне порядочных людей. Подобное поведение, наряду с тем, что никоим образом не помогает выйти из ситуации с проблемами настройки инструментов, ещё и существенным образом вредит нормализации обстановки, причём с единственной и явно не прикрытой целью, «половить рыбку в мутной воде» «смутного времени». Таким образом, Вы вместо декларативно провозглашённых целей и принципов форума, "льёте воду на мельницу" духовного обнищания своего народа.

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
I beg pardon beside all participant of the Forum. I have done the next translation on english. This is my reconstruction wood hole of pinblock.

Shim the loose tuning pin with cardbord

When friction between pin and wood hole is no longer enough to provide the necessary tension of the strings on the classical technology seeks to restore pin’s wood hole or hammers pin of larger diameter, or a conclusion about the impossibility of restoring the piano
Thus, the pin can be, with some approximation, of course, be regarded as a classic bolt. And that can happen with a threaded connection, if the bolt is screwed into the nut, which has much lower strength material? It’s had bad connection and wick friction .
I don’t beats new pins (larger diameter).I am force the turning (old) pin into the seat (wood hole) while gradually screwing it in.
The most productive and durable (oddly enough) was a regular corrugated cardboard, which provides the required quality and the restoration takes place fairly quickly, with virtually no material costs without the risk of "disorder" of neighboring pins, which inevitably arises in the classic "finishing" chopping. Depending on the compound, this material allows for multiple settings for a long time operation of the instrument. Currently under my control are dozens of tools, it is recovered by this method and set up another issue with its restored pins should never be, but owing to the overall poor state of the instrument and there are only spinig more and more "foot-cloth" is already on other pins.
Technology disaster recovery chopping is quite simple, I have repeatedly led her to various reports and papers for completeness of presentation will allow myself to describe it in this article.

I can suggest a pinblock pin fixation restoring technique that, far from being classic one, is quite effective. I call it a “foot wrap” technique. This technique features its cost effectiveness and way to avoid “distuning” of the adjacent pins, which is always the case when the pin is conventionally hammered in.

First, you should loosen the “distuning” turning pin, so that the coils at the pinblock are slack. Then using a thin but strong screwdriver (bodkin) remove the string end out of the turning pin. Fully unscrew the turning pin with the string kept inserted. If you fail to do so, in some cases it will be difficult to re-tighten the string on the turning pin. Cut a 50 by 20 mm strip out of the compact corrugated cardboard (of 2-3 mm thickness). Insert it in the seat so that the cardboard filled half of the circle. Firmly place this cardboard strip so that it reached the end of a seat. Force the turning pin into the seat while gradually screwing it in. Have this done gradually in 3 or 4 steps, so as to keep the turning pin from heating. Keep screwing the turning pin into its original (“home”) fixing zone in the pinblock. Then, very gently with a small effort put the end of the string into the hole of the turning pin using a screwdriver. Adjusting and fixing the turning pin until it reaches the desired position, hold the coils of the string by a screwdriver so as to avoid their “sprawling”. I advise you, unless you have paired turning pin installed, while tightening both turning pins of the same string to obtain equal pitch level.

View the entire technology disaster recovery chopping can be seen on video footage me at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGk3dS6dKow&feature=channel
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1779765 - 10/30/11 07:47 AM Re: Shim the loose tuning pin with cardboard [Re: Ed Foote]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1543
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote RPT
so I don't think moisture in the wood cells is part of the tightening mechanism beyond triggering the reaction.
Regards,

maxim_tuner demonstrates tightening fixing pin (bass range), in the online
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi_8mh-AFYA
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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