Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#1770076 - 10/13/11 07:02 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
If anyone with a Yamaha CLP-990 could pop the hood and snap some pix of the key mechanism I'd be eternally grateful!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
(ads) Sweetwater / Roland
Your Next Keyboard is at Sweetwater

Click Here


#1770283 - 10/14/11 04:04 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
Pagareaula Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 17
Loc: Missouri, U.S.
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I (or my house) would be burgled, you would be "burglarized", which is absurd to me. Placing "ize" on the end of a word doesn't make a new word in my book.


Burgle? Come now, let's be civilIZEd. I wouldn't expect someone so serious about preserving proper English to use such recent, colloquialIZEd "ungly English."

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

burgle, v. orig. colloq. or humorous.

(ˈbɜːg(ə)l)

[A back-formation from burglar n., of very recent appearance, though English law-Latin (1354) had a verb burgulāre of same meaning.]

a.a intr. To follow the occupation of a burglar. b.b trans. To break feloniously into the house of; to steal or rob burglariously.

   1872 M. Collins Pr. Clarice I. iv. 63 The burglar who attempted to enter that room would never burgle again.    1874 Standard 14 Nov. 3 New words with which the American vocabulary has lately been enriched; ‘to burgle’, meaning to injure a person by breaking into his or her house.    1884 Blackw. Mag. 513/2, I burgled myself again in the night.

Hence ˈburgled ppl. a., and ˈburgling vbl. n. and ppl. a.

   1880 Daily News 28 Oct. 5/3 Treachery seems to have been developed even in burgling circles.    1884 C. Dickens Dict. Lond. 28/3 A gentleman of the burgling persuasion.    1885 Graphic 14 Feb. 151/1 After the ‘burgling’ is completed.    1886 Phelps Burglars in Par. vii. 117 ‘Oh’, said the mistress of the burgled cottage‥to the policeman.


laugh

Top
#1770292 - 10/14/11 04:42 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
reza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Tehran, Iran
Dear Dewester thanks you for this wonderful and rare collection of photos. As an Electronics engineer I also have this tendency to see inside of every electronics device.

Reviewing the photos related to the boards (brains), I can see that most of them following embeded systems design patterns that is the reason why they are so limited and hard to upgrade. I can see that in near future most of the electronics devices will be a brainless I/O devices, acting as a dock for something like iPad/iPhone. The brain and user interface can be separated from these devices. This way, you can put your iPAD on any DP and start to play your favorite software instrument. I know that some companies already started to walk in this path by introducing devices like iMIDI (to connect your midi device to the iPAD/Phone, but I really waiting to see big players like Yamaha, Roland, etc. To wake up and stop ignoring popular devices like iPhone/iPAD.

Top
#1770413 - 10/14/11 10:45 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Language is central to culture, so it's only natural to feel protective towards it, particularly when outside forces are influencing it. But protecting it from change is a losing battle IMO. And besides, new phrases and constructs can be fun, even if they don't completely (or perhaps because they don't) fit into the existing logical framework (not that any language is 100% internally consistent).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1770435 - 10/14/11 11:18 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5279
Let's remember what fun the French had with 'le weekend', when their own subjects preferred the Frenchified version of the English rather than their own long-winded invented version.....(I can't remember know what it was now).

The same applied to the new technical terms invented since the computer age.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#1770457 - 10/14/11 11:44 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: reza]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: reza
Reviewing the photos related to the boards (brains), I can see that most of them following embeded systems design patterns that is the reason why they are so limited and hard to upgrade. I can see that in near future most of the electronics devices will be a brainless I/O devices, acting as a dock for something like iPad/iPhone. The brain and user interface can be separated from these devices. This way, you can put your iPAD on any DP and start to play your favorite software instrument. I know that some companies already started to walk in this path by introducing devices like iMIDI (to connect your midi device to the iPAD/Phone, but I really waiting to see big players like Yamaha, Roland, etc. To wake up and stop ignoring popular devices like iPhone/iPAD.

When I look at the brains photos I'm struck by a preponderance of what appear to be proprietary processors connected to old DRAM and expensive random access Flash on large PWBs with a fair amount of old misc. glue logic. For the price of all that (+manufacturing) I'd think a newer more highly integrated off-the-shelf processor on a much smaller PWB could easily be less costly and much faster - win/win? I just don't understand the strange economics and backward technology of the DP industry. Perhaps there is little significant market competition between manufacturers?

The dockable processor is an interesting concept, though I'm not sure I'd want it on a DP. Like any computer, the OS, form factor, and interfaces change too quickly. A cheap DP should last at least 10 years, a high-end one I'd expect 20 to 30 years from (with some maintenance) but perhaps my expectations are unwarranted. Will the IPod as we know it even be around in 5 years?

On the other hand, it's kind of a shame that 5-pin DIN MIDI is on its way out. An essentially brainless product with excellent keys, excellent built-in sound system, MIDI out, and analog audio in could be viable for decades - just add a sound module (which are also disappearing) or PC / laptop / tablet / iPod. The problem is lack of integration - I desire this so much that I don't mind paying a premium for it. The only way to get it is with an internal processor - luckily they are getting cheaper all the time.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1770535 - 10/14/11 01:39 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
reza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Tehran, Iran
I think one reason behind this hardware-oriented trends in DP industry are existing R&D teams that are not ready to accept the new era of computing world. They are following the old traditions of hardware designs.

Regarding lack of interface standards in the post-PC computer devices (like tablets, smart phones, etc), I am fully in agree with you. The market is crazy and everybody wants to dominate it's own standards. But soon or later we will have kind of standards for docking interfaces. I really wish to see newcomers of tablet industry to begin labling their tablets with things like "iPhone Compatible" (Similar the way that PC industry did by saying IBM-Compatible in 90s).

Even without relying on third party devices like iPad, the DP industry can gain a lot by introducing it's own dock able computing devices. This way we can select the best action and form factor, independent of the sound engines. At worse case, let each company introduce it's own standard.

Top
#1770550 - 10/14/11 02:02 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: North Carolina
I don't think that they're stuck on old designs. Instead, they're stuck on remaining profitable. Which of the suggested improvements would help profits? None, I think.

If a new competitor came along and offered those things, then the major players (YRK) would have to respond. But there is a huge barrier to the entry of new competitors, mainly in two areas:

1. The keyboard. It's not easy to design one that will perform well and last long. The majors have long experience in this. Lacking that, a new competitor would face major expenses to develop one.

2. The marketing. People buy what's they see in stores. That would be Y, R, K, and C (and maybe the other K). From a dealer's point of view, there isn't room for a new, brand X. He's trying to make a profit selling YRKC's. What benefit would he gain that would offset the cost of keeping inventory of yet another brand?

Anyway ... when will we (and I) do less blathering ... and see more of the exposing promised by the thread's title? smile

Top
#1777262 - 10/26/11 12:20 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Harry_440 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Maybe this picture of a peeled-apart Roll Up Piano keyboard will go with the Hecsan Rollup Piano link. (Sorry - I can't seem to embed the actual image in the PW Web site.)

[img]http://www.mediafire.com/?dm59511gz659f86[/img]

The keyboard peeling was done in the process of modifying a "PLAY 'N' ROLL" rollup piano sold by Shaper Image. I replaced the rubberized keyboard with some button switches, providing me with a fairly small electronic pitch pipe for use in doing my Bruce Arnold ear training exercises.


Harry

Older adult beginner
Kawai CA63

Top
#1778339 - 10/27/11 06:49 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Harry_440]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Harry_440
Maybe this picture of a peeled-apart Roll Up Piano keyboard will go with the Hecsan Rollup Piano link. (Sorry - I can't seem to embed the actual image in the PW Web site.)

Thanks! I don't think MediaFire will let you hot link to files unless you pay them some $.

So I used the PW File Uploader to store it:



Ta da!

And while I'm at it, here's a high res view of the Roll Up Piano brains:

_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1781935 - 11/02/11 06:59 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
After seeing a large variety of DP guts in many a nekid pichures post, does anyone have any idea why DPs retail for as much as they do? There's like $100 tops (it could easily be significantly less) worth of parts and labor in something very mass produced like a Casio.

I always feel bad for poorer students who need to pay >$500 for entry level and >$2000 to get decent keys & sound - it's a heck of a sticker shock for most parents.

I can buy an entirely playable and OK sounding entry level guitar (steel stringed acoustic or electric) for <$100, which surely must have more labor involved and at least $20 in parts - so why aren't there any acceptable entry level DPs for say $250?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1781986 - 11/02/11 08:23 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Jdiggity1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 47
Loc: Newcastle, NSW Australia
the research and development of technologies and the staff behind them?

( i have no idea )
_________________________
Current: Kawai MP10, Alesis Q88
Has Been: Yamaha P85

Top
#1782011 - 11/02/11 08:41 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3836
Loc: North Carolina
How much does toothpaste cost?
The paste costs very little.
The plastic tube costs more!
The processes to make the product costs even more.
Transporting it from factory to distributor to retailer costs even more.
A dime of manufacturing costs can translate to a dollar at retail.

Take a business class and you'll see what it costs to run a business.

Top
#1782098 - 11/02/11 11:34 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Jdiggity1]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Jdiggity1
the research and development of technologies and the staff behind them?

( i have no idea )

True, but amortized over tons of product this can't add up to all that much - unless things aren't being run very efficiently (which wouldn't surprise me actually - corporate jets, huge "forgiven" loans, and golden parachutes for our 1% betters don't come cheap).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1782133 - 11/03/11 01:09 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
I guess in my view DP's are not super high volume items. They last quite a while and not that many people have them (or upgrade them often). Think about how many friends you have who own DP's vs those who own other electronics that we may be comparing with DP's. Low volume means high prices to cover the fixed costs of design and manufacturing.

I think it's consistent with other musical electronics. Some of these DAC's, amps, headphones, speakers...not really much to them if you open them up. But they can cost a pretty penny. And those are more stable technologies, with relatively less R&D per year needed to stay in whatever niche they are in. That's just my impression. I mean, how much do the parts for a Sennheiser HD800 cost? And how long have people been researching headphones vs digital pianos? These items are not exactly made of unicorn tears, but they cost as much as if they did.


Edited by gvfarns (11/03/11 01:17 AM)

Top
#1788220 - 11/13/11 03:44 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Kawai CA63 Key Repair Pix

PW forum member "Beco" recently had some work done to his Kawai CA63. During the repair induced nakidity, he snagged several compromising pix with his trusty Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX100V. Lets have a look!


This is a view of a small auxiliary PWB located on left side the DP. It is apparently associated with the button / LED / LCD festooned main control panel that consumes some of the keybed area. That's the keyboard assembly visible in the top of the photo, obviously using the same complex aluminum extrusion found in the MP10. Anyway, the two chips are old 74HC565 8 in / 1 out serializers. I assume they take the data from the push-buttons and convert it to a serial stream, which allows multiple simultaneous button pushes to be recognized correctly. Many jumpers, it's probably a single layer board. I wonder why they didn't integrate this functionality into the control board itself? The connectors alone here probably cost more than the rest of the board, and they introduce potential points of failure.


I believe this is a view of the power amplifier heatsink through some holes in the bottom of the case. To dissipate hot air to the upper internal chamber of the piano I suppose, though I wonder if there is an intentional and positive acoustic function to this as well?


A view down the exposed keys and hammers. Key pivot points are farther back for the black keys, keys are individually numbered. I think that's the side of a speaker magnet to the left of around key #10.


The problem key #59 (MIDI G5?) removed giving us a clear view of the pivot and pin, guide pin under the front of the key, and the key bottoming felt strips for the black & white key ends. The hammer seems to have fallen into the void. Note that the black key weights are smaller than the those of the white keys. I wonder how they are accomplishing the overall hammer grading from bottom to top? The weights seem uniformly sized, which I wasn't expecting to see.


That's the top board with music rest on the right, and the key cover board on the left. The gear on the long rod presumably makes the cover board move equally on both ends, keeping it from jamming during opening and closing.


Kind of a repeat of the second picture, but with more heatsink detail.


Problem key repair. The front guide pin was rubbing against raw wood rather than felt, so the felt is being replaced. The brown plug in the guide pin hole is pressing the felt while the glue dries, later the excess felt was trimmed off, I assume by "Fritz". Some dimensions for the dimensionally minded among us.


A very clear view of the problem key, the hammer pads glued to it, and critical dimensions. Note the angled black key relief cuts.

Many thanks to Beco for sharing these great shots with us!

_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1788227 - 11/13/11 04:03 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Brent H Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 843
Originally Posted By: dewster
I wonder how they are accomplishing the overall hammer grading from bottom to top? The weights seem uniformly sized, which I wasn't expecting to see.


Maybe it's not really graded in the keyboard and they just fake the "grading" by varying the velocity curves.
_________________________
Current Life+Music Philosophy: Less Thinking, More Foot Tapping

Ars Longa, Vita Brevis

Top
#1788241 - 11/13/11 04:26 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Brent H]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Brent H
Maybe it's not really graded in the keyboard and they just fake the "grading" by varying the velocity curves.

I really doubt that, AFAIK graded always means physically graded, and this is Kawai's top of the line wooden ivory feel RM3 action (minus the let-off rubber thingies). Either the weights are graded and it isn't visible in the photos (most likely - the grading of the hammer weights on the Roland RD-700NX is only 5 grams difference top to bottom) or they are playing some kind of mechanical advantage game with the hammers.

I wonder if the let-off rubbers could be easily added to the CA63?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1788246 - 11/13/11 04:39 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
A couple of points to clear-up speculation

- The hammers are indeed graded - it's just not obvious from the photograph.
- Fritz Dobbert Pianos/PianoFatura is Kawai's official Brazilian distributor.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1788274 - 11/13/11 05:10 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Beco Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 19
Loc: Brazil
Hi Dewster,

I agree with you about the graded thing. When i bought the kawai CA63 in Fritz Dobbert manufacture I saw a piece of the kawai system RM3 with and without the scapment in the same piece. To add the let-off rubbers it will be easy, but there is a plastic piece in the harmmer that should be added to touch the rubber (I think this part would be a little be difficult since the CA93 the plastic thing below to the hammer).


Best Regards

Beco smile
_________________________
Kawai CA63
Yamaha CLP 300

Top
#1788299 - 11/13/11 05:50 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks for that confirmation James! Could you possibly share with us why the weight grading isn't visible in the photos? Is it a depth or thickness thing? Just wondering... Also, is it possible to buy that entire key assembly as a spare part? If so, who would one contact? It looks quite advanced, kudos to Kawai for making such an interesting key mechanism!

And thanks for the added info (and original pix) Beco! I was scrutinizing the pix for "The piece of plastic" and couldn't detect it, but that didn't necessarily mean it was missing. But you have confirmed that it indeed is - thanks!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1788316 - 11/13/11 06:19 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
Thanks for that confirmation James!


Well, that's what I'm here for.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Could you possibly share with us why the weight grading isn't visible in the photos?


Because the grading is rather subtle. Seriously though, I believe if you were to compare the heaviest and lightest hammers side-by-side, you would definitely be able to spot the difference.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Is it a depth or thickness thing?


It's more the size/shape of the weight.

There are illustrations of the different hammer weights in the Kawai service manuals, however I'm reluctant to post pictures in a publc forum.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Also, is it possible to buy that entire key assembly as a spare part?


Dealers/technicians can order the necessary parts, yes.

Originally Posted By: dewster
If so, who would one contact?


Typically, the technician would contact the dealer, the dealer would contact the distributor, and the distributor would contact their local Kawai Parts centre.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1788662 - 11/14/11 09:21 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Typically, the technician would contact the dealer, the dealer would contact the distributor, and the distributor would contact their local Kawai Parts centre.

Short of buying a CA93 and ripping it out, is there any way for the average Joe to obtain a full RM3 key assembly directly from Kawai?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1788666 - 11/14/11 09:24 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I very much doubt it.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1811251 - 12/23/11 02:49 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
NEKID PICHURES!! - Kawai MP8 -

Piano World forum member "gvfarns" recently coaxed his MP8 into a shameful state of nekidity and then, lucky for us, snapped some highly compromising pix! He posted them here, and I decided to present a sampling of the most lurid in this thread for all you twisted geeks to gawk at.

In his own words:

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I undressed my MP8 today and took some pictures, more or less similar to the MP10 thread. I know it's old tech but I thought it was interesting to compare to the MP10. Surprisingly few things changed between RM3 and AWA PRO. I opened it because I've had it a while and wanted to see if it needed cleaning out. It was pretty clean, though.

Additionally, I kind of feel like the E above middle C is mis-calibrated...it seems like it always plays a little quieter than the other keys. Opening it up, I see that that's where the keyboard splits and where the edge of the thing the sensors are mounted to is. Still, I couldn't detect it being out of alignment with my eyes. I was hoping there would be a piece of paper or something I could pull out and fix that issue.

Also I've been thinking about Keegan's question about swapping the action in a broken MP10 into a working AWA PRO piano (at the moment Musician's friend is selling 6 broken MP10). I wanted to take a look and see how feasible it is. It seems super feasible, though I'm not sure whether the fact that AWA PRO keys all have aligned fulcrums (fulcra?) while the RM3 action has staggered fulcrums is compensated for somehow in the electronics.

The only bit of info I would add is the way the keys and hammers come out. You lift the wooden key off its post, then the hammer moves down below its normal position, which allows it to fall right off. To put the hammer back on you put it way down low, press it into place, and then lift it up. Took me a few minutes to figure that out. It's all very easy to open up, mess with, and put back together. No force required.

They hammers were definitely not 100% straight. They keys are perfectly straight, so I'm not sure what's up with that. At first I thought it was because the black key hammers were higher or something (they have a different weight on them...in fact, the weights on each hammer are marked W1 through W4 and B1 through B4 as you go up the keyboard.

Each key has a varying number of (different colored) paper spacers under the fulcrum. Those that have no additional spacers have a black, slippery one (teflon maybe?). Other have brown or white papers spacers (or both) with the black one either underneath or on top of them. I kind of think they might have been evened out by hand (or by a machine that actually takes the keys off and puts them back on repeatedly like a human would).



Here the top section of the case flipped back to show the key assembly mounted on a massive slab of aluminized wood mill byproduct, upper left is the pitch & mod wheels, below that is the power supply, and at center are the front panel display / control printed wiring boards (PWBs). That looks like a bit of rust on the right end of the metal key assembly stiffener. As usual for Kawai there are lots of wiring harnesses.


This is a composite of two photos showing the analog power supply. That transformer has got to weigh several pounds at least. The two aqua disks on the right are either capacitors or MOVs (surge suppressors) and the fuse is mounted to the left of them - strange that they made it so hard to change fuse, I prefer them to be integrated into the power cord receptacle.


The pitch and mod wheels, sporting identical looking brackets.


Analog PWB. Many dual op-amps (BA15532N), a dual power amp (LA6517), several 8-to-1 analog switches (74HC4051), an 8-in-1-out shift register (74HC595), and some random transistors and caps. From the high jumper count I'd say this is an inexpensive single layer PWB.


Digital PWB "brain board". TSOPs and QFPs, unfortunately all are house-marked. The two QFPs marked "Kawai K022-FP" also appear in the MP6 and MP10, which leads me think they are processors of some sort. The TSOP II chips may be synchronous DRAM and/or Flash. There may be ICs mounted on the other side as well.


Here the highest key has been removed and the hammer is being manually pressed against the bumper and rubber switch. The hammers are plastic with through-riveted iron weights on both sides. Interesting how the hammer resting height is adjustable, I wonder why? Note the complex aluminum extrusion. Nice keys, though the solid wood must make the entire assembly quite heavy.


A different view, this time with one more key removed from the top. You can see what looks like a paper height adjusting washer on one of the pivot pins. The pivot pins look to be pressed into a nylon block, while the guide pins are anchored in what appears to be a fairly thin piece of plywood located under the steel sheet. From the numbering reported by gvfarns it seems there are 4 distinct hammer weight grading zones. The black keys have different hammers than the white keys - probably so that they can be weighted less and/or have a different mechanical advantage.

Note the unexpected unevenness of the hammers down the row, something kind of strange going on there?


The ol' white key & tape measure money shot. 7 1/4" from played end to pivot point, the same as the RM3 action in the MP10 I believe (though the RM3 black key pivot points are moved forward 3/4" IIRC). Nice that the hammer was included in this shot because careful dimensional analysis could easily yield a rough idea of the key / hammer mechanical advantage.

A round of applause to gvfarns for these awesome MP8 nekid pichures!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1811312 - 12/23/11 04:32 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: dewster
Thanks for that confirmation James!


There are illustrations of the different hammer weights in the Kawai service manuals, however I'm reluctant to post pictures in a publc forum.


I came across this picture recently showing the weighted zones on the keyboard. THis was from of a group of pics showing the MP10. I havent seen it part of any marketing material, though I don't think it came from any service manual!



James, let me know if this is incorrect, and i will remove the picture.

Top
#1811409 - 12/23/11 06:54 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
vegasE, may I ask where you found that image?

It appears to reference an older keyboard action, and may therefore not be applicable to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1811411 - 12/23/11 06:59 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3483
Loc: Pennsylvania
James, are the touch weights public knowledge? I'm particularly interested in the difference between AWA PRO and AWA PRO II.

With AWA PRO no one ever said Kawai had a lighter touch than Yamaha and now they say it often (Yamaha has not changed their action in many years it seems).

I'm interested if the difference from version I to version II was one of static weight or inertia (or both) and also whether RM3 has approximately the same weights as AWA PRO II or perhaps something in between the two versions of AWA PRO (since I never hear people say RM3 is too light...perhaps because they don't remember the weight of AWA PRO).


Edited by gvfarns (12/23/11 07:03 PM)

Top
#1811420 - 12/23/11 07:09 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9367
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
gvfarns, I believe this kind of thing is a slightly grey area. I could probably find out, but would probably be asked not to post the information on a public forum.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

Top
#1811460 - 12/23/11 08:35 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
vegasE, may I ask where you found that image?

It appears to reference an older keyboard action, and may therefore not be applicable to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action.

Kind regards,
James
x


http://www.francepianos.com/granex/kawai_mp10.htm

I found it strange that the image was named "awazones" as well. Thats why i ended my post asking whether it was correct.
The funny thing was, i came across it searching for the CA51 - not the MP10. Sort of makes sense given the image file name.

In the past few weeks i have been testing some new DP's. I have found a MP10 and a MP8ii in a store sitting side by side. The actions did feel similarly weighted (not definative by any means) but the biggest difference i felt was the left-off mechanism of the MP10.

I have also been interested in the differences between the actions - AWA ProII and RM3.

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
8 Live Ragtime Piano Players on the Cape!
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need help with chords
by Shirz
10/25/14 07:52 AM
Which are the best forums for piano technicians and DIYers?
by Withindale
10/25/14 03:17 AM
Prelude
by noobpianist90
10/25/14 01:55 AM
Red Striped Screws and Fancy Nuts
by chernobieff
10/24/14 11:57 PM
Communication outside of lessons
by Arghhh
10/24/14 10:23 PM
Who's Online
79 registered (anotherscott, 36251, ARamadan, Auver, Banshee, 21 invisible), 1057 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76645 Members
42 Forums
158487 Topics
2327459 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission