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#1761142 - 09/28/11 02:15 PM DPs Exposed!
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
By clicking "I am 18" button you are confirming that you are over 18 and will not misuse this thread in any way.



DPs Exposed!

Do you have a lurid fascination with the naughty bits of digital pianos? Well then this thread is for you! It's a collection of links to posts, both at PW and other sites, that have photos of DPs (including, but not limited to: other electronic keyboards, sound modules, and expansion boards) in various states of undress.

Being an EE, I particularly enjoy snaps of the main "brains" board, where slow RAM, tiny ROM, and calculator class processors rule our world. My amateur audio self appreciates views of anemic 5W amplifiers driving $2 "full range" speakers mounted in pre Thiele & Small "enclosures". And my lay mechanical side is fascinated to see keyboard actions with their acres of brittle plastic, mounds of milky grease, and monstrous heaving slabs of aluminized chipboard for bases.

If you run across pictures at Piano World - or elsewhere on the web - please pipe up below in this thread and I'll do my best to keep the main header list here current.


- The DP Expos List! -

Access
Virus TI - brains
Virus TI - guts

Dave Smith
Poly Evolver - guts

General Music
GEM RP90 - brains, guts, surgery

Hecsan
Rollup Piano - article w/ pix, keys & brains

Kawai
CA95 - guts & brains
CA63 - keys
CN2 - brain salad surgery
CN33 - guts & brains
MP6 - brains, keys & stuff
MP8 - guts & keys
MP10 - guts & brains, keys
MP9000 - keys
VPC1 - keys & guts

Kurzweil
SP88X - key repair

Nord
NS2, Wave, Lead3, Rack2 - brains & chopped keys
Lead1, Rack2 - guts

Roland
HP 2800G - key repair
RD-300s - extensive key repair
RG-3 - exploratory surgery
RD-700GX - disassembly, brains, keys
RD-700NX - disassembly, brains, keys, reassembly, more brains

Yamaha
AN1x - disassembly, brains, X-Z touchpad dissection
AvantGrand N1 - keys & guts
AvantGrand N2 - keys
AvantGrand N3 - keys & guts
CLP550 - keys
CLP990 - keys!
CP1 - disassembly & keys, brains & guts
CVP96 - keyboard PWB repair
NU1 - keys
P85 - headphone jack mod
P100 - disassembly, backup battery replacement, reassembly, disassembly
P-105 - brains, speakers, keys
P-120 - brains, speakers, keys, key scanner

Misc.
Synthfind - jillions of old synth pix, a few of internals here and there
Actions compared - various key action pix and excellent pivot point discussion.


Edited by dewster (01/19/14 08:45 AM)
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#1761178 - 09/28/11 03:29 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
bobbo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 118

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#1761192 - 09/28/11 03:58 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
HwyStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 323
Monty Python Naughty Bits

[Sorry OP... I have not heard that combination of words in over twenty years!]

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#1761200 - 09/28/11 04:11 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Eek! They're nekkid!
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

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#1761593 - 09/29/11 09:55 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Arctic_Mama]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
Eek! They're nekkid!

"Naked" means you have no clothes on.

"Nekkid" means you have no clothes on and you're up to something!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1761649 - 09/29/11 11:42 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
findingnemo2010 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 1504
grin ha
_________________________
music to me is kind of like putting together pieces of a puzzle
i call it the paino because its where i put all my pain

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#1769195 - 10/12/11 11:07 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Just added a better link to the P100, and alphabetized the model number groups.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1769247 - 10/12/11 12:53 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Please tell me alphabetized is not a real word. Please.
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1769283 - 10/12/11 02:05 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3666
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Please tell me alphabetized is not a real word. Please.


It is, I'm afraid. Although in Australia it's spelt "alphabetised".

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#1769287 - 10/12/11 02:13 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
We're doomed then. Well, the English language is anyway!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1769359 - 10/12/11 04:48 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Please tell me alphabetized is not a real word. Please.

According to these guys the first known use was in 1691:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/alphabetize

I've heard it since grade school so it doesn't sound strange at all to me. What about it rankles those on the other side of the pond?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1769367 - 10/12/11 05:14 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
We're doomed then. Well, the English language is anyway!

As in knackered / buggered / brown bread?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1769379 - 10/12/11 05:31 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Well, not sure really. But it sounds (to me) like the kind of Americanism that is radically changing the language. Like stressing the wrong syllable, which Americans typically do. Like HarASS, which correctly is HARass. And because we (Brits) are forever absorbing American culture, it is becoming the norm here. I would place things in alphabetical order, you alphabetize them. Which I know is more efficient in terms of using fewer words but it is ugly English to my eyes. I (or my house) would be burgled, you would be "burglarized", which is absurd to me. Placing "ize" on the end of a word doesn't make a new word in my book.

Interestingly (to me anyway), I can't really reconcile my distaste of that kind of Americanism with my real admiration of Americans and American things. It is fashionable over here (well, everywhere it seems) to knock America and Americans but I'm a big fan personally (in a completely non-political sense). I'm completely fascinated with the country, its geography and people. But I don't like alphabetize!

Anyway, a little voice in my head is telling me I've strayed a little off topic!
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Yamaha CP1

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#1769412 - 10/12/11 06:10 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 723
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
Many young people in Bulgaria are using English words when there are corresponding Bulgarian words. They even use the English words with Bulgarian endings and conjugations smile One may consider that case even worse because it imposes an entirely different language over our own rather than mixing varieties of same of one and same language. Anyway, I would like to use the off topic started by EssBrace to apologize to all the native English speakers (and other who are fluent in English) for my bad English in my posts. Fortunately the music is universal language where we understand each other perfectly despite the different "accents" wink
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1769414 - 10/12/11 06:13 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Placing "ize" on the end of a word doesn't make a new word in my book.

Then the German language must totally apoplecticize you! smile

ex: Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz - "beef labeling regulation & delegation of supervision law".
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1769419 - 10/12/11 06:20 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Hahaha - don't get me started on Germans! I'm depressingizing myself at the thought.

CyberGene - your English is very good. Better than Dewsters!!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1769431 - 10/12/11 06:42 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: CyberGene]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: CyberGene
Anyway, I would like to use the off topic started by EssBrace to apologize to all the native English speakers (and other who are fluent in English) for my bad English in my posts.

I say to you "да приемат това, да си беден английски, заедно със себе си, друго място, далеч от погледа ми!"

Originally Posted By: EssBrace
CyberGene - your English is very good. Better than Dewsters!!

Yes, and I'm 100% sure his Bulgarian is better than mine (Google Translate).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1769435 - 10/12/11 06:49 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
CyberGene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 723
Loc: Sofia, Bulgaria
That was great thumb To be honest, Google Translate (and similar services) are poor at translating from and to Bulgarian and I had to re-translate back to English your kind wish in order to double-check what you really said, but fortunately they are getting better with time. We're a small nation, so that's not a top priority for Google I guess grin

P.S. I remember a funny story. I worked in Dublin, Ireland for 4 months around 2005. Somebody told me in advance that Irish accent is different. A guy had to take me from the airport and he was speaking awfully bad English. He even told me he was amazed that my English was so good. That was just ridiculous because I knew it was not true and I said to myself: Wow, these Irishmen really speak English worse than me! Well, it turned out he was French grin Anyway, Irish accent is strange indeed, I had real difficulties understanding people there. They also laughed at me many times for my poor English. And my English hasn't improved much since then, so don't tell me it's good wink


Edited by CyberGene (10/12/11 07:13 PM)
_________________________
http://www.myspace.com/evgenykumanov
Current DP: Kawai ES7
Previous DP-s: Kawai MP6, Kawai CA63, Roland RD-700SX, Roland FP-5, Yamaha P90, Korg SP-200, Casio CDP-100

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#1769469 - 10/12/11 07:49 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
joflah Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 324
Loc: St. Louis, MO, USA
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Well, not sure really. But it sounds (to me) like the kind of Americanism that is radically changing the language. Like stressing the wrong syllable, which Americans typically do. Like HarASS, which correctly is HARass. And because we (Brits) are forever absorbing American culture, it is becoming the norm here. I would place things in alphabetical order, you alphabetize them. Which I know is more efficient in terms of using fewer words but it is ugly English to my eyes. I (or my house) would be burgled, you would be "burglarized", which is absurd to me. Placing "ize" on the end of a word doesn't make a new word in my book.


Please don't category us.

--
Jack
_________________________
Jack

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#1769472 - 10/12/11 07:59 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Sorry, I had never intentionized to category you!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1769475 - 10/12/11 08:04 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3666
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Placing "ize" on the end of a word doesn't make a new word in my book.



Are you sure? So why are we Aussies and Poms always complaining about the "Americanisation" of our language? wink You definitely hear "Americanise" more than, "the placing of American words, idioms or influences in our language". grin But I guess Americanise would be the one exception to the no-ise rule because you are saying it is so American! Confused yet?! crazy

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#1769477 - 10/12/11 08:14 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
My favourite Americanism is de-encouragize:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPfi4GDF53E#t=1m12

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1769478 - 10/12/11 08:14 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Well, maybe what I'm saying is that "ize" words ("ise" words in proper English) are fine if they have been a staple of the language. Generalise, categorise etc...all fine. But alphabetize? Do me a favour!

Aussies are as bad - I was proof-reading something for an Australian friend the other day and he used the word thereunder...what the heck does that mean I asked - I thought it was a typo. The word does exist in Australian dictionaries apparently. Needlessly of course!
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Yamaha CP1

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#1769482 - 10/12/11 08:16 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
de-encouragize - classic!
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1769487 - 10/12/11 08:26 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3666
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
Well, maybe what I'm saying is that "ize" words ("ise" words in proper English) are fine if they have been a staple of the language. Generalise, categorise etc...all fine. But alphabetize? Do me a favour!

Aussies are as bad - I was proof-reading something for an Australian friend the other day and he used the word thereunder...what the heck does that mean I asked - I thought it was a typo. The word does exist in Australian dictionaries apparently. Needlessly of course!


Actually "thereunder" is a very old and established construction in British English indicating position under the thing already specified. It is part of a host of "there" words which can take on a preposition as a suffix, therein, thereof, thereunder, thereat, thereover etc. As long as it was used correctly, there's no problem with the word. Sorry mate!



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#1769586 - 10/13/11 12:15 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
My favourite Americanism is de-encouragize

OK, I'm definitely going to give that one a go, thanks sincerely for the pointer!

I'm curious, is there a term for British pseudo-Americanisms coined purely for comedic purposes?
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1769593 - 10/13/11 12:19 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Yes, slang.
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1769614 - 10/13/11 12:54 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Languages that aren't in constant flux are basically dead. People play all kinds of games with them because spoken language is largely an instinct for us - put two infants on a desert isle and if they survive they'll come up with something with internal consistency (i.e. follows grammatical rules).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1769750 - 10/13/11 05:46 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: ando]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: ando
"thereunder"....As long as it was used correctly, there's no problem with the word. Sorry mate!


It wasn't. Thereunder is only correct or sensible frankly in the context of legal documents or technical instructions - the context in which it was used was totally odd. When I questioned his use of it he quoted some Australian dictionary entry justifying it.

There's a concept - an Australian dictionary!...cobber, dag, rack (as in rack off), sheila and countless other inelegant contributions to the language no doubt grin
_________________________
Yamaha CP1

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#1769910 - 10/13/11 12:49 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
ClavBoy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/21/11
Posts: 67
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: dewster
Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz


Well that was only a proposal, the final name of the law is "Gesetz zur Übertragung der Aufgaben für die Überwachung der Rinderkennzeichnung und Rindfleischetikettierung", which looks much nicer, doesn't it?


Edited by ClavBoy (10/13/11 12:49 PM)
_________________________
Roland FP-7F

Working on:
Schumann: From Foreign Lands and Countries, op. 15; Burgmller op. 100, Arabesque; Tchaikovsky op. 39 no. 15, Italian Song

Dreaming of:
Some Scott Joplin pieces i.e. Bethena. Still years to go for that...
Satie: Gnossienne No. 1. Maybe a bit earlier



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#1770076 - 10/13/11 07:02 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
If anyone with a Yamaha CLP-990 could pop the hood and snap some pix of the key mechanism I'd be eternally grateful!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

Top
#1770283 - 10/14/11 04:04 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
Pagareaula Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/05/11
Posts: 17
Loc: Missouri, U.S.
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
I (or my house) would be burgled, you would be "burglarized", which is absurd to me. Placing "ize" on the end of a word doesn't make a new word in my book.


Burgle? Come now, let's be civilIZEd. I wouldn't expect someone so serious about preserving proper English to use such recent, colloquialIZEd "ungly English."

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

burgle, v. orig. colloq. or humorous.

(ˈbɜːg(ə)l)

[A back-formation from burglar n., of very recent appearance, though English law-Latin (1354) had a verb burgulāre of same meaning.]

a.a intr. To follow the occupation of a burglar. b.b trans. To break feloniously into the house of; to steal or rob burglariously.

   1872 M. Collins Pr. Clarice I. iv. 63 The burglar who attempted to enter that room would never burgle again.    1874 Standard 14 Nov. 3 New words with which the American vocabulary has lately been enriched; ‘to burgle’, meaning to injure a person by breaking into his or her house.    1884 Blackw. Mag. 513/2, I burgled myself again in the night.

Hence ˈburgled ppl. a., and ˈburgling vbl. n. and ppl. a.

   1880 Daily News 28 Oct. 5/3 Treachery seems to have been developed even in burgling circles.    1884 C. Dickens Dict. Lond. 28/3 A gentleman of the burgling persuasion.    1885 Graphic 14 Feb. 151/1 After the ‘burgling’ is completed.    1886 Phelps Burglars in Par. vii. 117 ‘Oh’, said the mistress of the burgled cottage‥to the policeman.


laugh

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#1770292 - 10/14/11 04:42 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
reza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Tehran, Iran
Dear Dewester thanks you for this wonderful and rare collection of photos. As an Electronics engineer I also have this tendency to see inside of every electronics device.

Reviewing the photos related to the boards (brains), I can see that most of them following embeded systems design patterns that is the reason why they are so limited and hard to upgrade. I can see that in near future most of the electronics devices will be a brainless I/O devices, acting as a dock for something like iPad/iPhone. The brain and user interface can be separated from these devices. This way, you can put your iPAD on any DP and start to play your favorite software instrument. I know that some companies already started to walk in this path by introducing devices like iMIDI (to connect your midi device to the iPAD/Phone, but I really waiting to see big players like Yamaha, Roland, etc. To wake up and stop ignoring popular devices like iPhone/iPAD.

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#1770413 - 10/14/11 10:45 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Language is central to culture, so it's only natural to feel protective towards it, particularly when outside forces are influencing it. But protecting it from change is a losing battle IMO. And besides, new phrases and constructs can be fun, even if they don't completely (or perhaps because they don't) fit into the existing logical framework (not that any language is 100% internally consistent).
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)

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#1770435 - 10/14/11 11:18 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5424
Let's remember what fun the French had with 'le weekend', when their own subjects preferred the Frenchified version of the English rather than their own long-winded invented version.....(I can't remember know what it was now).

The same applied to the new technical terms invented since the computer age.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#1770457 - 10/14/11 11:44 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: reza]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: reza
Reviewing the photos related to the boards (brains), I can see that most of them following embeded systems design patterns that is the reason why they are so limited and hard to upgrade. I can see that in near future most of the electronics devices will be a brainless I/O devices, acting as a dock for something like iPad/iPhone. The brain and user interface can be separated from these devices. This way, you can put your iPAD on any DP and start to play your favorite software instrument. I know that some companies already started to walk in this path by introducing devices like iMIDI (to connect your midi device to the iPAD/Phone, but I really waiting to see big players like Yamaha, Roland, etc. To wake up and stop ignoring popular devices like iPhone/iPAD.

When I look at the brains photos I'm struck by a preponderance of what appear to be proprietary processors connected to old DRAM and expensive random access Flash on large PWBs with a fair amount of old misc. glue logic. For the price of all that (+manufacturing) I'd think a newer more highly integrated off-the-shelf processor on a much smaller PWB could easily be less costly and much faster - win/win? I just don't understand the strange economics and backward technology of the DP industry. Perhaps there is little significant market competition between manufacturers?

The dockable processor is an interesting concept, though I'm not sure I'd want it on a DP. Like any computer, the OS, form factor, and interfaces change too quickly. A cheap DP should last at least 10 years, a high-end one I'd expect 20 to 30 years from (with some maintenance) but perhaps my expectations are unwarranted. Will the IPod as we know it even be around in 5 years?

On the other hand, it's kind of a shame that 5-pin DIN MIDI is on its way out. An essentially brainless product with excellent keys, excellent built-in sound system, MIDI out, and analog audio in could be viable for decades - just add a sound module (which are also disappearing) or PC / laptop / tablet / iPod. The problem is lack of integration - I desire this so much that I don't mind paying a premium for it. The only way to get it is with an internal processor - luckily they are getting cheaper all the time.
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#1770535 - 10/14/11 01:39 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
reza Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 77
Loc: Tehran, Iran
I think one reason behind this hardware-oriented trends in DP industry are existing R&D teams that are not ready to accept the new era of computing world. They are following the old traditions of hardware designs.

Regarding lack of interface standards in the post-PC computer devices (like tablets, smart phones, etc), I am fully in agree with you. The market is crazy and everybody wants to dominate it's own standards. But soon or later we will have kind of standards for docking interfaces. I really wish to see newcomers of tablet industry to begin labling their tablets with things like "iPhone Compatible" (Similar the way that PC industry did by saying IBM-Compatible in 90s).

Even without relying on third party devices like iPad, the DP industry can gain a lot by introducing it's own dock able computing devices. This way we can select the best action and form factor, independent of the sound engines. At worse case, let each company introduce it's own standard.

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#1770550 - 10/14/11 02:02 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
MacMacMac Offline
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Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
I don't think that they're stuck on old designs. Instead, they're stuck on remaining profitable. Which of the suggested improvements would help profits? None, I think.

If a new competitor came along and offered those things, then the major players (YRK) would have to respond. But there is a huge barrier to the entry of new competitors, mainly in two areas:

1. The keyboard. It's not easy to design one that will perform well and last long. The majors have long experience in this. Lacking that, a new competitor would face major expenses to develop one.

2. The marketing. People buy what's they see in stores. That would be Y, R, K, and C (and maybe the other K). From a dealer's point of view, there isn't room for a new, brand X. He's trying to make a profit selling YRKC's. What benefit would he gain that would offset the cost of keeping inventory of yet another brand?

Anyway ... when will we (and I) do less blathering ... and see more of the exposing promised by the thread's title? smile

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#1777262 - 10/26/11 12:20 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Harry_440 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/11/10
Posts: 9
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Maybe this picture of a peeled-apart Roll Up Piano keyboard will go with the Hecsan Rollup Piano link. (Sorry - I can't seem to embed the actual image in the PW Web site.)

[img]http://www.mediafire.com/?dm59511gz659f86[/img]

The keyboard peeling was done in the process of modifying a "PLAY 'N' ROLL" rollup piano sold by Shaper Image. I replaced the rubberized keyboard with some button switches, providing me with a fairly small electronic pitch pipe for use in doing my Bruce Arnold ear training exercises.


Harry

Older adult beginner
Kawai CA63

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#1778339 - 10/27/11 06:49 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Harry_440]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Harry_440
Maybe this picture of a peeled-apart Roll Up Piano keyboard will go with the Hecsan Rollup Piano link. (Sorry - I can't seem to embed the actual image in the PW Web site.)

Thanks! I don't think MediaFire will let you hot link to files unless you pay them some $.

So I used the PW File Uploader to store it:



Ta da!

And while I'm at it, here's a high res view of the Roll Up Piano brains:

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#1781935 - 11/02/11 06:59 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
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Loc: Northern NJ
After seeing a large variety of DP guts in many a nekid pichures post, does anyone have any idea why DPs retail for as much as they do? There's like $100 tops (it could easily be significantly less) worth of parts and labor in something very mass produced like a Casio.

I always feel bad for poorer students who need to pay >$500 for entry level and >$2000 to get decent keys & sound - it's a heck of a sticker shock for most parents.

I can buy an entirely playable and OK sounding entry level guitar (steel stringed acoustic or electric) for <$100, which surely must have more labor involved and at least $20 in parts - so why aren't there any acceptable entry level DPs for say $250?
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#1781986 - 11/02/11 08:23 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Jdiggity1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 47
Loc: Newcastle, NSW Australia
the research and development of technologies and the staff behind them?

( i have no idea )
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#1782011 - 11/02/11 08:41 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
MacMacMac Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/24/09
Posts: 3866
Loc: North Carolina
How much does toothpaste cost?
The paste costs very little.
The plastic tube costs more!
The processes to make the product costs even more.
Transporting it from factory to distributor to retailer costs even more.
A dime of manufacturing costs can translate to a dollar at retail.

Take a business class and you'll see what it costs to run a business.

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#1782098 - 11/02/11 11:34 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Jdiggity1]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Jdiggity1
the research and development of technologies and the staff behind them?

( i have no idea )

True, but amortized over tons of product this can't add up to all that much - unless things aren't being run very efficiently (which wouldn't surprise me actually - corporate jets, huge "forgiven" loans, and golden parachutes for our 1% betters don't come cheap).
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#1782133 - 11/03/11 01:09 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
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Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
I guess in my view DP's are not super high volume items. They last quite a while and not that many people have them (or upgrade them often). Think about how many friends you have who own DP's vs those who own other electronics that we may be comparing with DP's. Low volume means high prices to cover the fixed costs of design and manufacturing.

I think it's consistent with other musical electronics. Some of these DAC's, amps, headphones, speakers...not really much to them if you open them up. But they can cost a pretty penny. And those are more stable technologies, with relatively less R&D per year needed to stay in whatever niche they are in. That's just my impression. I mean, how much do the parts for a Sennheiser HD800 cost? And how long have people been researching headphones vs digital pianos? These items are not exactly made of unicorn tears, but they cost as much as if they did.


Edited by gvfarns (11/03/11 01:17 AM)

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#1788220 - 11/13/11 03:44 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Kawai CA63 Key Repair Pix

PW forum member "Beco" recently had some work done to his Kawai CA63. During the repair induced nakidity, he snagged several compromising pix with his trusty Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX100V. Lets have a look!


This is a view of a small auxiliary PWB located on left side the DP. It is apparently associated with the button / LED / LCD festooned main control panel that consumes some of the keybed area. That's the keyboard assembly visible in the top of the photo, obviously using the same complex aluminum extrusion found in the MP10. Anyway, the two chips are old 74HC565 8 in / 1 out serializers. I assume they take the data from the push-buttons and convert it to a serial stream, which allows multiple simultaneous button pushes to be recognized correctly. Many jumpers, it's probably a single layer board. I wonder why they didn't integrate this functionality into the control board itself? The connectors alone here probably cost more than the rest of the board, and they introduce potential points of failure.


I believe this is a view of the power amplifier heatsink through some holes in the bottom of the case. To dissipate hot air to the upper internal chamber of the piano I suppose, though I wonder if there is an intentional and positive acoustic function to this as well?


A view down the exposed keys and hammers. Key pivot points are farther back for the black keys, keys are individually numbered. I think that's the side of a speaker magnet to the left of around key #10.


The problem key #59 (MIDI G5?) removed giving us a clear view of the pivot and pin, guide pin under the front of the key, and the key bottoming felt strips for the black & white key ends. The hammer seems to have fallen into the void. Note that the black key weights are smaller than the those of the white keys. I wonder how they are accomplishing the overall hammer grading from bottom to top? The weights seem uniformly sized, which I wasn't expecting to see.


That's the top board with music rest on the right, and the key cover board on the left. The gear on the long rod presumably makes the cover board move equally on both ends, keeping it from jamming during opening and closing.


Kind of a repeat of the second picture, but with more heatsink detail.


Problem key repair. The front guide pin was rubbing against raw wood rather than felt, so the felt is being replaced. The brown plug in the guide pin hole is pressing the felt while the glue dries, later the excess felt was trimmed off, I assume by "Fritz". Some dimensions for the dimensionally minded among us.


A very clear view of the problem key, the hammer pads glued to it, and critical dimensions. Note the angled black key relief cuts.

Many thanks to Beco for sharing these great shots with us!

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#1788227 - 11/13/11 04:03 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Brent H Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 843
Originally Posted By: dewster
I wonder how they are accomplishing the overall hammer grading from bottom to top? The weights seem uniformly sized, which I wasn't expecting to see.


Maybe it's not really graded in the keyboard and they just fake the "grading" by varying the velocity curves.
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#1788241 - 11/13/11 04:26 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Brent H]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Brent H
Maybe it's not really graded in the keyboard and they just fake the "grading" by varying the velocity curves.

I really doubt that, AFAIK graded always means physically graded, and this is Kawai's top of the line wooden ivory feel RM3 action (minus the let-off rubber thingies). Either the weights are graded and it isn't visible in the photos (most likely - the grading of the hammer weights on the Roland RD-700NX is only 5 grams difference top to bottom) or they are playing some kind of mechanical advantage game with the hammers.

I wonder if the let-off rubbers could be easily added to the CA63?
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#1788246 - 11/13/11 04:39 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
A couple of points to clear-up speculation

- The hammers are indeed graded - it's just not obvious from the photograph.
- Fritz Dobbert Pianos/PianoFatura is Kawai's official Brazilian distributor.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1788274 - 11/13/11 05:10 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Beco Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/03/11
Posts: 19
Loc: Brazil
Hi Dewster,

I agree with you about the graded thing. When i bought the kawai CA63 in Fritz Dobbert manufacture I saw a piece of the kawai system RM3 with and without the scapment in the same piece. To add the let-off rubbers it will be easy, but there is a plastic piece in the harmmer that should be added to touch the rubber (I think this part would be a little be difficult since the CA93 the plastic thing below to the hammer).


Best Regards

Beco smile
_________________________
Kawai CA63
Yamaha CLP 300

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#1788299 - 11/13/11 05:50 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks for that confirmation James! Could you possibly share with us why the weight grading isn't visible in the photos? Is it a depth or thickness thing? Just wondering... Also, is it possible to buy that entire key assembly as a spare part? If so, who would one contact? It looks quite advanced, kudos to Kawai for making such an interesting key mechanism!

And thanks for the added info (and original pix) Beco! I was scrutinizing the pix for "The piece of plastic" and couldn't detect it, but that didn't necessarily mean it was missing. But you have confirmed that it indeed is - thanks!
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#1788316 - 11/13/11 06:19 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted By: dewster
Thanks for that confirmation James!


Well, that's what I'm here for.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Could you possibly share with us why the weight grading isn't visible in the photos?


Because the grading is rather subtle. Seriously though, I believe if you were to compare the heaviest and lightest hammers side-by-side, you would definitely be able to spot the difference.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Is it a depth or thickness thing?


It's more the size/shape of the weight.

There are illustrations of the different hammer weights in the Kawai service manuals, however I'm reluctant to post pictures in a publc forum.

Originally Posted By: dewster
Also, is it possible to buy that entire key assembly as a spare part?


Dealers/technicians can order the necessary parts, yes.

Originally Posted By: dewster
If so, who would one contact?


Typically, the technician would contact the dealer, the dealer would contact the distributor, and the distributor would contact their local Kawai Parts centre.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1788662 - 11/14/11 09:21 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Typically, the technician would contact the dealer, the dealer would contact the distributor, and the distributor would contact their local Kawai Parts centre.

Short of buying a CA93 and ripping it out, is there any way for the average Joe to obtain a full RM3 key assembly directly from Kawai?
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#1788666 - 11/14/11 09:24 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
I very much doubt it.

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1811251 - 12/23/11 02:49 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
NEKID PICHURES!! - Kawai MP8 -

Piano World forum member "gvfarns" recently coaxed his MP8 into a shameful state of nekidity and then, lucky for us, snapped some highly compromising pix! He posted them here, and I decided to present a sampling of the most lurid in this thread for all you twisted geeks to gawk at.

In his own words:

Originally Posted By: gvfarns
I undressed my MP8 today and took some pictures, more or less similar to the MP10 thread. I know it's old tech but I thought it was interesting to compare to the MP10. Surprisingly few things changed between RM3 and AWA PRO. I opened it because I've had it a while and wanted to see if it needed cleaning out. It was pretty clean, though.

Additionally, I kind of feel like the E above middle C is mis-calibrated...it seems like it always plays a little quieter than the other keys. Opening it up, I see that that's where the keyboard splits and where the edge of the thing the sensors are mounted to is. Still, I couldn't detect it being out of alignment with my eyes. I was hoping there would be a piece of paper or something I could pull out and fix that issue.

Also I've been thinking about Keegan's question about swapping the action in a broken MP10 into a working AWA PRO piano (at the moment Musician's friend is selling 6 broken MP10). I wanted to take a look and see how feasible it is. It seems super feasible, though I'm not sure whether the fact that AWA PRO keys all have aligned fulcrums (fulcra?) while the RM3 action has staggered fulcrums is compensated for somehow in the electronics.

The only bit of info I would add is the way the keys and hammers come out. You lift the wooden key off its post, then the hammer moves down below its normal position, which allows it to fall right off. To put the hammer back on you put it way down low, press it into place, and then lift it up. Took me a few minutes to figure that out. It's all very easy to open up, mess with, and put back together. No force required.

They hammers were definitely not 100% straight. They keys are perfectly straight, so I'm not sure what's up with that. At first I thought it was because the black key hammers were higher or something (they have a different weight on them...in fact, the weights on each hammer are marked W1 through W4 and B1 through B4 as you go up the keyboard.

Each key has a varying number of (different colored) paper spacers under the fulcrum. Those that have no additional spacers have a black, slippery one (teflon maybe?). Other have brown or white papers spacers (or both) with the black one either underneath or on top of them. I kind of think they might have been evened out by hand (or by a machine that actually takes the keys off and puts them back on repeatedly like a human would).



Here the top section of the case flipped back to show the key assembly mounted on a massive slab of aluminized wood mill byproduct, upper left is the pitch & mod wheels, below that is the power supply, and at center are the front panel display / control printed wiring boards (PWBs). That looks like a bit of rust on the right end of the metal key assembly stiffener. As usual for Kawai there are lots of wiring harnesses.


This is a composite of two photos showing the analog power supply. That transformer has got to weigh several pounds at least. The two aqua disks on the right are either capacitors or MOVs (surge suppressors) and the fuse is mounted to the left of them - strange that they made it so hard to change fuse, I prefer them to be integrated into the power cord receptacle.


The pitch and mod wheels, sporting identical looking brackets.


Analog PWB. Many dual op-amps (BA15532N), a dual power amp (LA6517), several 8-to-1 analog switches (74HC4051), an 8-in-1-out shift register (74HC595), and some random transistors and caps. From the high jumper count I'd say this is an inexpensive single layer PWB.


Digital PWB "brain board". TSOPs and QFPs, unfortunately all are house-marked. The two QFPs marked "Kawai K022-FP" also appear in the MP6 and MP10, which leads me think they are processors of some sort. The TSOP II chips may be synchronous DRAM and/or Flash. There may be ICs mounted on the other side as well.


Here the highest key has been removed and the hammer is being manually pressed against the bumper and rubber switch. The hammers are plastic with through-riveted iron weights on both sides. Interesting how the hammer resting height is adjustable, I wonder why? Note the complex aluminum extrusion. Nice keys, though the solid wood must make the entire assembly quite heavy.


A different view, this time with one more key removed from the top. You can see what looks like a paper height adjusting washer on one of the pivot pins. The pivot pins look to be pressed into a nylon block, while the guide pins are anchored in what appears to be a fairly thin piece of plywood located under the steel sheet. From the numbering reported by gvfarns it seems there are 4 distinct hammer weight grading zones. The black keys have different hammers than the white keys - probably so that they can be weighted less and/or have a different mechanical advantage.

Note the unexpected unevenness of the hammers down the row, something kind of strange going on there?


The ol' white key & tape measure money shot. 7 1/4" from played end to pivot point, the same as the RM3 action in the MP10 I believe (though the RM3 black key pivot points are moved forward 3/4" IIRC). Nice that the hammer was included in this shot because careful dimensional analysis could easily yield a rough idea of the key / hammer mechanical advantage.

A round of applause to gvfarns for these awesome MP8 nekid pichures!
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#1811312 - 12/23/11 04:32 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Originally Posted By: dewster
Thanks for that confirmation James!


There are illustrations of the different hammer weights in the Kawai service manuals, however I'm reluctant to post pictures in a publc forum.


I came across this picture recently showing the weighted zones on the keyboard. THis was from of a group of pics showing the MP10. I havent seen it part of any marketing material, though I don't think it came from any service manual!



James, let me know if this is incorrect, and i will remove the picture.

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#1811409 - 12/23/11 06:54 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
vegasE, may I ask where you found that image?

It appears to reference an older keyboard action, and may therefore not be applicable to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1811411 - 12/23/11 06:59 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
James, are the touch weights public knowledge? I'm particularly interested in the difference between AWA PRO and AWA PRO II.

With AWA PRO no one ever said Kawai had a lighter touch than Yamaha and now they say it often (Yamaha has not changed their action in many years it seems).

I'm interested if the difference from version I to version II was one of static weight or inertia (or both) and also whether RM3 has approximately the same weights as AWA PRO II or perhaps something in between the two versions of AWA PRO (since I never hear people say RM3 is too light...perhaps because they don't remember the weight of AWA PRO).


Edited by gvfarns (12/23/11 07:03 PM)

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#1811420 - 12/23/11 07:09 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
gvfarns, I believe this kind of thing is a slightly grey area. I could probably find out, but would probably be asked not to post the information on a public forum.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1811460 - 12/23/11 08:35 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
vegasE, may I ask where you found that image?

It appears to reference an older keyboard action, and may therefore not be applicable to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action.

Kind regards,
James
x


http://www.francepianos.com/granex/kawai_mp10.htm

I found it strange that the image was named "awazones" as well. Thats why i ended my post asking whether it was correct.
The funny thing was, i came across it searching for the CA51 - not the MP10. Sort of makes sense given the image file name.

In the past few weeks i have been testing some new DP's. I have found a MP10 and a MP8ii in a store sitting side by side. The actions did feel similarly weighted (not definative by any means) but the biggest difference i felt was the left-off mechanism of the MP10.

I have also been interested in the differences between the actions - AWA ProII and RM3.

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#1811463 - 12/23/11 08:42 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: vegasE]
vegasE Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/21/11
Posts: 226
Loc: Sydney, AU
Originally Posted By: vegasE
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
vegasE, may I ask where you found that image?

It appears to reference an older keyboard action, and may therefore not be applicable to the latest 'RM3 Grand' action.

Kind regards,
James
x


http://www.francepianos.com/granex/kawai_mp10.htm

I found it strange that the image was named "awazones" as well. Thats why i ended my post asking whether it was correct.
The funny thing was, i came across it searching for the CA51 - not the MP10. Sort of makes sense given the image file name.

In the past few weeks i have been testing some new DP's. I have found a MP10 and a MP8ii in a store sitting side by side. The actions did feel similarly weighted (not definative by any means) but the biggest difference i felt was the left-off mechanism of the MP10.

I have also been interested in the differences between the actions - AWA ProII and RM3.




Just found it again here - http://www.kawai.de/ca51_en.htm
So it would appear that it is for the older actions.

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#1811465 - 12/23/11 08:45 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
The main difference between the AWA PRO II and RM3 that I am already aware of is that the fulcums on the RM3 are set back on the black keys (as they are on acoustics) so that the leverage ratio is the same on the black and white keys. This is not the case for the AWA PRO 1 and 2. If it is noticeable, it would mean that on the PRO 2 the back of the black key would be harder than the front to a larger degree than on the RM3.

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#1819906 - 01/06/12 07:57 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Just found these Kawai MP9000 key pix: http://xahlee.org/piano/kawai_mp9000_piano_key_action.html

Bonus - a harpsichord made of LEGO! http://www.henrylim.org/Harpsichord.html
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#1831606 - 01/25/12 01:51 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Sam Rose Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 673
Loc: Los Angeles
Anyone seen CP300 pics? I want to open mine. I'm generally very handy, but I always prefer to use instructions if available.
_________________________
Playing since age 21 (September 2010) and loving it more every day.
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#1870918 - 03/30/12 10:44 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Just added a link on first post to this thread for Lawrence's Yamaha AG N3 key regulation post.
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#1871214 - 03/30/12 10:06 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1872407 - 04/02/12 08:50 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James

*Shwing!*

http://www.norduserforum.com/nord-stage-forum-f3/ns2-in-the-nude-t2647.html
- Nord: NS2, Wave, Lead3, Rack2 - brains & chopped keys
- Access: Virus TI - brains

http://www.sequencer.de/synthesizer/viewtopic.php?t=17673
- Nord: Lead1, Rack2 - guts

http://midibox.org/forums/topic/7648-ins...romeda-updated/
- Dave Smith: Poly Evolver - guts
- Access: Virus TI - guts

All added to the first post, muchas gracias!
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1872415 - 04/02/12 09:14 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Any further analysis on the Nord Stage 2?
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1872516 - 04/02/12 12:11 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 760
I would love to see the action and insides of a FP4 (not F.) I'm curious why I like this older action. I've done much research with Google but can't find anything.
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#1872680 - 04/02/12 04:37 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
Any further analysis on the Nord Stage 2?

The hacked off end keys are really surprising.

Not a lot of flash in there compared to what they should be doing with today's standards (my standard lament).

I don't understand why many DSPs are running at 150 MHz when PC processors are running in excess of 3 GHz. For what you pay for with multiple DSPs (6!) you might as well be using an FPGA with a high speed SDRAM interface and tens or hundreds of ALUs running in parallel. You could do thousands of second order filters in a low-end FPGA. Maybe it's a cost or lack of in-house expertise thing?
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#1874522 - 04/06/12 06:49 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Carlos-CR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Hello,

I'm new to the forums, and wanted to start by showing some CVP-305 intimate pictures smile

This is my Clavinova CVP305 without the top cover. The keyboard is not visible as it's hidden under the cover (the brown piece to the right of the picture)



This seems the main board with yamaha DSPs:


When the top cover is fully removed you can see the keyboard. Looking at those short keys is no wonder that the action is not very close to the real thing:


In this perspective you can see the key weights. As this is a GH3, it have 3 different weight zones:


By unscrewing the keyboard you can clearly see the weights and the action. The green boards are the ones with the sensors. It has three sensors in the GH3 models but they are not visible because they are on the other side of the board (the one that contacts with the keys):


This is a disasembled GHD keyboard. In it you can see the two sensors (the GH3 version has 3):


And last, a sideways view of the keys:


Edited by Carlos-CR (04/06/12 06:50 AM)
Edit Reason: (right and left confusion :( )

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#1874545 - 04/06/12 07:46 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2423
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
GH3 doesn't mean there are three different weighting groups, it means there are three sensors for each key.
_________________________
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#1874580 - 04/06/12 09:30 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Carlos-CR]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Carlos-CR
I'm new to the forums, and wanted to start by showing some CVP-305 intimate pictures smile

Welcome Carlos, and thanks for the pix!

I can't make out the chip numbers, but there is apparently a sample playback board with two different processors lashed to an I/O board with yet another processor. And look at all those wires! I'd think an integrated redesign would be cheaper and potentially more reliable than this bits and pieces approach (but that could strand old inventory). Must be kind of a pain to manufacture.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1874585 - 04/06/12 09:44 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: EssBrace]
Carlos-CR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Originally Posted By: EssBrace
GH3 doesn't mean there are three different weighting groups, it means there are three sensors for each key.


Hello EssBrace,

yes GH3 is for the 3 sensors. But it happens there are also 3 different weights. It's written in the boards as H, M and L, and the metal weights have 3 different color codes too. The GHD keyboards also have 3 different weight zones but only 2 sensors.

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#1874588 - 04/06/12 09:48 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Carlos-CR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Carlos-CR
I'm new to the forums, and wanted to start by showing some CVP-305 intimate pictures smile

Welcome Carlos, and thanks for the pix!

I can't make out the chip numbers, but there is apparently a sample playback board with two different processors lashed to an I/O board with yet another processor. And look at all those wires! I'd think an integrated redesign would be cheaper and potentially more reliable than this bits and pieces approach (but that could strand old inventory). Must be kind of a pain to manufacture.


Hello Dewster,

I will post higher resolution pictures later but I'm not sure you could read the model numbers. frown


Effectively there are lots of cables and it is a real pain to change the keyboard.

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#1874715 - 04/06/12 02:59 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Carlos-CR]
Carlos-CR Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/05/12
Posts: 64
Loc: Madrid, Spain
Originally Posted By: Carlos-CR
Originally Posted By: dewster
Originally Posted By: Carlos-CR
I'm new to the forums, and wanted to start by showing some CVP-305 intimate pictures smile

Welcome Carlos, and thanks for the pix!

I can't make out the chip numbers, but there is apparently a sample playback board with two different processors lashed to an I/O board with yet another processor. And look at all those wires! I'd think an integrated redesign would be cheaper and potentially more reliable than this bits and pieces approach (but that could strand old inventory). Must be kind of a pain to manufacture.


Hello Dewster,

I will post higher resolution pictures later but I'm not sure you could read the model numbers. frown


Effectively there are lots of cables and it is a real pain to change the keyboard.


Ok, here I go again with full res pics of the main boards. Some numbers are readable and others aren't. If there is A LOT of interest I could open again my clavinova and shot better pictures, but for the moment that is what I have:


And another one:

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#1875254 - 04/07/12 05:33 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Carlos-CR]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Carlos-CR
Ok, here I go again with full res pics of the main boards. Some numbers are readable and others aren't.

Thanks! I can't make out much other than a couple of Winbond W986432EDH-7 chips, which are 512K x 4 bank x 32 bit SDRAM. Lots of proprietary Yamaha markings.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1875317 - 04/07/12 08:31 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kawai James Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 9551
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
That big, shiny Yamaha chip looks interesting...
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1875361 - 04/07/12 11:00 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: Kawai James]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Kawai James
That big, shiny Yamaha chip looks interesting...

It's probably the newest and most powerful chip - it's a BGA and everything else is ancient looking QFP and TQFP. Someone wake me up for NAMM 2020.
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The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
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#1878015 - 04/12/12 06:17 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2429
Loc: UK
Since I had no reason to I took the top off my Kawai CN33 and took the following two pics:

Overview: it's pretty empty, shows top and back of the keys with a couple of small control panel circuit boards mostly hidden, audio amplifier board, and main (only) board. The (two) speakers point downwards. The shapes of the hammers at the back of the keys change presumably providing different weights:



The main circuit board. Two big Kawai chips (do we still say chips?). I don't know if the other side has components. It's surface mount that's all I recognise:



Not shown is the other speaker and the power transformer. That's it!



Edited by spanishbuddha (04/12/12 06:20 AM)

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#2035151 - 02/18/13 08:21 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Kumi_27 Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 01/18/13
Posts: 33
Loc: TG, Poland
Hello.
My GEM RP90 was broken, I repaired it and took some photos.
Here's one, with the main electronic boards:



More photos here - http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2035147.html#Post2035147
_________________________
Michael / GEM RP90

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#2036424 - 02/20/13 01:06 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 760
I would love to see pics of old FP4 naked action? Anyone feeling frisky?
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2050872 - 03/19/13 02:18 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: spanishbuddha]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Since I had no reason to I took the top off my Kawai CN33 and took the following two pics:

Added to the OP list, thanks spanishbuddha!
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The DPBSD Project!
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#2050882 - 03/19/13 02:31 PM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
LarryShone Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/10
Posts: 860
Loc: Darlington, UK
Great to see, it shows that Yamaha uses its own components!
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#2264870 - 04/21/14 08:49 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
Gi Dy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/13
Posts: 23
Loc: Philippines
Why does Kawai keep on being so thrifty for the distance between the fulcrum and key surface?
All they do is put a catchy marketing term to its graded hammer technology excluding more information about the balance pins.

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#2264882 - 04/21/14 09:17 AM Re: DPs Exposed! [Re: dewster]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3803
Loc: Northern England.
All we`re short of now are pics of the lesser Roland actions; like Ivory "G", and that other Alpha one . .
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