Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Why don't people care about eye-tracking? Shame!

I just posted about the lastest developments in eye-tracking, and only a few people even bothered to read it. Is there any wonder that there are so many people here complaining about poor reading. It's not a personal thing with me at all. It's shocking to see that other posts have thousands of readers, while something as vital as this gets neglected. Shouldn't teachers keep themselves educated on matters this serious?

What is UP with you?

Good question! Have you ever tried to go forth with a new idea? Ok, I'm being kind of pushy. I honestly have to tell you, I wouldn't want to send a transfer student to or my child to a teacher that was not interested in the science of the visual aspect of playing music. I've had many transfer students who have been neglected, that's part of my frustration. Have you known persons who have obvious eye disabilities? That does not have to happen now.

The same was true for cleft pallettes at one time.

Sorry for the angst!

Maybe it is because I already know about eye tracking and have worked with a nationally known special needs person who has taught me the things to watch for.

That is an excellent reason!

I don't know about other teachers, but this is the first break I've had in the past two hours of teaching. A little patience, please!

Of course, John. I appreciate the comment. I was just observing the large amount of attention given to subjects that don't seem quite as important as a student's well being. All the threads are important, it seems like there is not much attention for this. Although there are enthusiastic people in my area who have learned about this, it is slow to be assimilated into the real world. In the meantime, children are growing up with unidentified learning difficulties. Every year missed with regard to these problems is a set back for those who suffer from it.

Thanks!

I also posted in the past at PW some information regarding teaching students with learning disabilities. It was very disappointing to see the number of people who complained about this, but seemed uninterested in how to teach persons with LD. LD are much more prevelant than people think, I feel (although presenting with varying levels of intensity.) I have been carrying the torch for better treatment of people with LD both in the private and public sectors. Some people still call children with LD "bad" kids. Not fair, that's all. I was still meek back then!

about LD (my only intended post on this topic since it's not the main topic of this thread.)

My first professional training and experience was as a teacher and it included additional specialized training in learning disabilities. Historically these kids were often labeled as "lazy" or "careless" because typically LD goes together with intelligence, so what explanation other than laziness could there be? Now it seems to have become a catch-all term to the point of being meaningless. Sometimes "LD" means that the person is an alternative thinker whose processing style doesn't fit what usually happens in the school system, or uses senses other than vision for processing things, or a host of other things.

Or there may be other things going on. I've told before of the 12 year old who came to me as "learning disabled" and in a special ed program. He was reading at about a grade 1 level. It appears that he had been pressured and hurried, and had adopted a type of reading where he tried to do everything at once. When he learned to slow down, process a phrase at a time reading each out loud using various activities, his reading took off. He did not have a reading problem: he had a problem with how he approached things. Within a few months he was reading at grade level and had gained a lot of confidence which also helped. I am still not convinced that this was in fact a learning disability.

Another thing we don't consider is the present model of stimulating and creating everything with a low attention span in mind. A student who is sensitive, aware, a deep thinker, is probably thrown off center through this constant barrage of brief truncated snippets. In regards to ADD, I deeply regretted not having taken the LD course until later, because I could have helped two of my students. One was put on Ritalin after a doctor's consultation. There were other solutions I didn't know about.

It's complicated and delicate. People not in the field should be careful about 'diagnosing' students. But if there is a real and visible problem, getting advice from the proper specialist is good. I was fortunate in the school system that we had experts to refer to such as educational psychologists. One or two were brilliant in their solutions.

I don't know how much things have changed since the early 1980's when I was active as a teacher, and ofc it's also a different country. My teaching activities later were in one-on-one teaching rather than in the classroom and that's when I really learned how to teach.


Do they still do that?

I would love to hear some of the things you and everyone looks for in students that might have issues and what you do about it.

Yes, they still do that. Enough that it needs to be kept in the foreground of conciousness, I believe.

I agree with you that LD can become a catch-all for any type of difference in learning. In any case, it is best to familiarize one's self with LD as approaches to teaching those with LD can be used in many instances and be successful.

It's about processing, which I think is the latest way to think of it. If you consider just processing, it removes the subjective label, and allows a teacher to approach with common sense solutions to each child's abilities. No, we are not legally allowed to diagnose. However, if you learn to recognize the signs of persons who learn differntly, or just need time to process, then you can help your students to be comfortable and learn at their own pace.

One on one lessons are a perfect place to accomodate such people. I know (having spoken to them) that some teachers do not want to accept those with LD, for whatever reason. Perhaps this is best for all concerned.

However, it's not black and white at all. Most people are in the gray area, with the exception of gifted and talented students.

My family has a strong background in human services, and working with reading disabilities. I have taken students who've had cerebral palsey, dysgraphia, autism, etc. I alway have kept a few spots open for challenged learners. They taught me so much about teaching. I only did this late in my career (if you want to call it that). It's not for everyone, but it's inevitable that you will have people sign up who don't even know they have a processing difficulty.

Hi Miley, I'dlike to mention a few things, but lets see if NMkeys wants to respond first. : )

I had a "lazy eye" that was serious enough to require eye surgery. That happened when I was in the 5th grade. But I NEVER had problems reading, and I was a very fast reader of music from the time I began, BEFORE the lazy eye was even diagnosed.

BEFORE the surgery I was told I had no depth perception and so would never be able to play any sports, even AFTER the surgery.

I was no star athlete, but I was a pretty good tennis player, and I was good enough at table tennis to beat my older cousin sometimes, who was a serious jock.

My point is that it is easy to invent problems where they do not exist as well as completely miss important problems that do exist.

Gary, I'm so glad that you were successful with the treatment you received! Good for you.

I'm trying to draw attention to those who fall through the cracks. Anyone who wants to learn further about this can visit:

http://www.optometrists.org/public_eye_care.html

That's what I was refering to when I said I posted soemthing earlier.

Better safe than sorry when it comes to health, IMO.

One story I can tell about is an adult man who came into the facility where I was an assistant in VT. Adults go in for these treatments, too.

This man was taking flying lessons. But, he couldn't pass the final test for his pilot's license (thank goodness!) He finally made his way to the optomitrist that I worked for, where he was diagnosed with a particular disorder. Tailored especially for him, he went through the VT. The VT room is large and has stations all around for various eye exercises and treatments for muscular development, like weight circuit training area. After the prescribed therapy, he did overcome the problem and went on to get his pilot's license.


Please go to the web site to read about musicians who have used this to improve their reading. There is much about this that I can't relate to you here.

I am always staring directly at my students eyes, especially the younger ones who like to 'look around the room' at random points in time - they are harder to track - but is essential for a teacher to know exactly when and where their students are looking and be able to connect that to other things and to draw conclusions from that data.

Perhaps try a better-crafted title on your post next time. You used "Eye-tracking difficulties-How to help"; If one is not familiar with "eye-tracking", the title doesn't necessarily create a strong draw for me to read it.

This post's title is a bit more catchy, and already has twice as many views. Perhaps a title like "Improving music reading difficulties using Vision Therapy" would be more appealing to user's who are not familiar with the term "eye tracking"

I am not familiar with the term eye-tracking, and some information would be helpful. I could Google the subject, but it would be more interesting what people here have to say. Some useful links would also be fine.

The link is right there. Read the thread.

I have seen the term "tracking" used frequently by piano teachers so I have assumed that it is standard terminology in the field. It makes sense that the ability to follow the page is important for keyboard music, because of its relative complexity.

Have used the link. Much interesting info there, but I did not find anything on eye-tracking. Seems I have to use Google.

Try "piano visual tracking" and "visual tracking". Here's the first result I found.
Wiki - Eye Movement in Reading

Thanks for the link, keystring. There is a very good article on eye-tracking in Wikipedia, but the relation to reading music scores is more interesting for me. I can speed read in four languages, but reading music is really a problem for me. Probably getting too old, and not practicing enough.

maybe this is where the role of a good teacher comes in. They would take their arsenal of knowledge and experience, including "tracking", get to know you as a student by observing you and through your history, and then suggest things.

I think there is more than one thing involved, and also that there are similarities and differences to reading words. I also read a number of languages including other scripts. Some things in common with language is that we anticipate what will come next in sentences so that we aren't really reading word for word or letter for letter. Written music also lets us predict what comes next once we pick up on the patterns. In other ways music is not like language. It is also like a graph showing how sounds go up and down, and it indicates physical motion, inflections, rhythms, which most written text does not contain.

I do know that musicians have various strategies, and that teachers teach them. Some of it has to do with "tracking", some with other elements, or musical grammar and whatnot. This thread seems like shop talk about one aspect of a much bigger picture (a fascinating one).

After basic little exercises where you watch the eye follow an object, We focused a lot on crossing the midline issues which are less often caught by school tests and create more of a problem. If a students dominate eye and hand are not on the same side of the body (if their dominance must cross the midline) they are going to have more difficulty than a student whose midline doesn't cross. You will have to do more skills which "force" the student to cross the midline (rote, auto pilot activity with a quick think change).

It also helps if you know if your student is a left or right brain learner. Most music notation is left brain. If I am working with a student who may have some issues or I know has dyslexia or I know is a right brain learner, I will pull out my white board and color pens. A left brain learner is happy to read "note, note, note..." but a right brain learner starts getting confused and/or bored and needs to see some patterns and shapes in the music. Your right brain learner is probably the one who prefers to play by ear because they are already hearing shapes and patterns. They just need the teacher to explain in shapes and patterns instead of note,note,note...Remember it is the teacher who at this point should be "bilingual" not the student. Teach the student in his "right brain" language (shapes, patterns) then you can define it in terms of "regular" teaching.

"shocking' and 'shame'..????

no worries, this has been an interesting thread.

Thank you all for your attention to this. As piano teachers, we are often the ones to notice certain traits that a student may exhibit. "First responders", if you will. My primary motivation for sending out this message is to stop false conclusions from being made about these students, encourage teachers to step up and possibly change a child's life, and treat those students who avoid note reading with respect with regard to what may be judged as simply "slow" by teachers and parents. My mother always said there is a reason for everything!

The section on optical games and exercises (@ www.optometrists.com) can help to re-train the eye muscles. Testing for learning disablilities will not turn up visual disturbances. Call your local principal and teachers: be a hero!

I once had a father slap his son in the head because he was exhibiting clear signs of dyslexia. The dyslexia did not show up on current diagnostic exams, so the father became angry and attacked his child. That's something one doesn't forget. It would not have happened if current testing included an eye exam by a trained optometrist.

Cubob, simply put, eye-tracking is the action of the eyes following each note as it is read and processed. While this term is probably mostly used by teachers in a pedagogical framework, it is easily applied to any type of reading and visual perception. Both students and teachers should be concerned with this. Ever had trouble focusing? The eyes may not be operating efficiently due to a muscular misalignment.

Thank you for the information. I used to have this problem and had to do some simple exercises to help strengthen the muscles (I would point my index finger and focus on that, then move it slowly toward my nose and I had to make sure I stayed focused on the finger as long as I could as it moved). I was a terrible reader as a child because of this, both in music and books.

I ask students that have trouble in reading music if they have an issue with book reading. If the answer is no, then I know it's more of an understanding issue than a physical problem. Just because a student will watch the note as they play it does not mean they have this eye-tracking problem. Often it is something done out of habit, or something done out of nervousness. Many people who get nervous will "freeze" and not be able to move their eyes to the next note.

In either of these latter instances (non-physical issue), I have them study the first measure and then cover it with a blank piece of paper, then they have to play that measure while looking at the next measure. As they get to the end of the covered measure, I move the paper over to the 2nd measure and hopefully they studied that so they can play what is covered up. This is quite effective.

I have always watched my students' eyes. I want to see how much they rely on sight reading, and how much they commmit to memory. I myself, am a total sight reader and can hardly memorize a thing anymore. The only things i can play from memory are the pieces I learned as a child and simple things that i really am playing 'by ear'.

i have pointed out sight issues with a couple of my students to the parents.. the kids need glasses simply.

My main students come from a stock of Suzuki playing, homeschooled youngsters. The parents start the kids (without a teacher) in Suzuki and then send them to me to continue and learn to read. It's been interesting.

If you're that interested in getting the word out and have a friend who's an optometrist, I'd suggest teaming up and writing an article for AMT. It's exactly the kind of thing they'd be interested in.

In the state of Ohio right now there is a legal requirement that any child referred for special education services and having an IEP written must get an eye exam. I'm not sure how strictly schools are following it but I know the district my kids are in does, at least as far as they give you the paperwork and tell you to have it done. I'm not sure if they follow up on kids if their parents don't return the paperwork.

Wow, parents are using the Suzuki method? I don't think I could ever have used the Suzuki method without the full knowledge I have now, and I had a BA when I got trained. Good luck with that!

I am not at all suggesting that you have this problem at all, but you remind me that I've had several students who were diagnosed with a certain condition where they could not remember letters, words, notes, etc. I had to invent a way to teach them. These persons did much better when I applied myself. I have learned to go with the flow when someone has difficulties, while at the same time, gently inroducing material that will help them to overcome the difficulties.

You are so right! An excellent suggestion.

I have been telling this to people in my studio, and have contacted a few local schools in my area. They were excited about VT as a solution to something that presents as a learning disability. Also, I've been posting this on Facebook where there are other musicians and parents that might read about it. In my area, there happens to be one of the first pioneers of VT, however, I don't personally know anyone except doctors I've dealt with personally. On the optometrists web site, there is plenty of information on how certain eye conditions affect readers of music, but I still have not seen this happening so much on a social level.

At the rate things are going now, students (not only children) are growing up without knowing that there is a possible solution. I feel terrible for these people., I really do.

As you can see, I'm a little frustrated in getting the word out. Thanks!

Dustin, You are exactly right. Once you get familiar with how people use their eyes, it's easier to see who may have a condition that isn't simply related to distractability.

I've had students who appeared to be trying so hard, but they couldn't keep their eyes one the notes. That does take keen observation. Some are more obvious in that, I have found, often want to play by ear and going to great lengths to not read the music. It's great that they can play by ear, but sometimes it's a substitute for being able to read the notes. I feel so bad for these students. You are a good teacher.

Mikey keys,

Specifically related to evidence of a possible eye disorder, the first thing that alerted me was certain students who did well playing by ear and memorizing, but avoided the music. Other features can be a little elusive. I need to reiterate that I'm not a doctor, and cannot diagnose and hand parents information about the optometrist in the area that can examine and diagnose any conditions.

A teacher can, however, draw some conclusions. Although there are conditions that I can't speak to exactly, some of them have features that are easier to spot than others. Infants commonly have crossed eyes in the first couple of months after birth. However, they outgrow this by about 5 or 6 months, or sooner. Any movement of the eye that is different from the other eye, whether it's slight crossing, or a "lazy" eye (a strabismus/esotropia), you can be fairly certain that that is not normal.

Case histories:

I had a sweet little girl once who could not read even the simplest series of notes after plenty of time for her to do so. I kept watching her, and, one day, when she looked back at me when leaving, one of her eyes crossed. I had her do it again, and the eye crossed. All of a sudden it dawned on me that this might be why she couldn't read. Her mother, bless her, took her right to a well known doctor who specializes in diagnosing eye disorders and uses VT to corrrect (special corrective glasses can be worn while the child is growing to correct this also), and she not only was found to have a notable disorder of her eyes, but was also found, thanks to this doctor, to have profound learning disabilites. She received VT, and was then sent to a school that specializes in special education. The point is that as the piano teacher, I was able to see this before she got older and passed the treshold when a child can have this reversed.

The older a child is, the less they will respond to treatment. That's why it's important to catch it early. Adults can benefit, but not nearly as well as children.

I also had a student (and many like this) who was the sweetest, although somewhat awkward, boy of about 9 years of age, who wore glasses already. It was obvious that the glasses didn't fit him well, and that it wasn't just his vision that was bad. He had a visible eye disorder, but his parents were financially unable to get him into better ones. Right away I saw that he loved piano, loved to play, but could not, for the life of him, keep his eyes on the music. So, we went on anyway. I let him learn by imitation and rote any classical piece he could learn. He turned out to be very gifted in creating his own compositions and in learning by ear. I helped him with phrasing, dynamics, fingering, technique, harmony, etc. Although it was heartbreaking to see him stuck with this condition, we were able to accomplish quite a bit in lessons. I taught him how to play hymns and other religious music that was played in his church, and he was in talks with the music director the last I saw him. That's a case when all I could do was help him the best I could.

You should look for direct avoidance of the music. Also, people that are very slow with sight reading might be at least considered for these problems.

Oddly enough, I had a student who was a slow music reader, and we worked constantly to improve this, but it was still difficult for her. However, she was a very prolific reader in school and did very well. I never did know why this was. Still, I kept working at it, but without any impatience or anger or judgement of her. Unfortunately, her mother was impatient and demanded to know why she was reading slowly. I asked the mother to be patient. that's all I could do.

So, symptoms are directly related to behavior. The bad thing is that people can suffer from eye disorders and have no idea that it's the underlying trouble. 20/20 vision is often seen in those with certain eye disorders.

I hope this helps. It would be nice if someone else were to post their techniques.