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I'm confused. When an accidental is indicated in one hand, is that same note also sharp or flat in the other hand within the same measure? What about in different octaves but in the same measure?

only the notes with accidentals do you play sharp or flat for that measure only unless indicated otherwise. it depends on the context of the measure.

I admit I tend to behave as if it's a global sharping of all Gs within a given measure, for example, but I don't think it is. I think chromatic accidentals that aren't part of the key signature only act on the given line or space that they sit on. So a sharped G in the right hand, on the second line up, only applies to all other Gs within that measure on that line. The line at the bottom on the bass clef still needs an explicit sharp sign if that one is also sharp.

Only that note in the same octave (technically it doesn't matter about which hand because it's the specific octave that matters, not which hand plays it).

Hm, I never thought of this before. If you had G4 in the bass clef that is sharped by an accidental, and a G4 in the treble clef, would it also be affected by that accidental?

Sharps, flats and naturals can be confusing.

A sharp or flat in a key signature (beginning of the line) applies to ALL of those letters (All Fs are sharp, etc.).

An accidental next to a note is only good for THAT SPECIFIC OCTAVE and only for THE REST OF THAT MEASURE. Sometimes, there is a courtesy accidental in the next measure to remind you that it's back to normal, often in parenthesis, but that practice seems to be dying out.

I guess I wasn't clear either (I was responding to the hands bit, not really thinking about the staves). Because the staff does matter. If you have a middle C in the treble clef, and you put a # accidental in front of it, that wouldn't apply to a middle C in the same measure in the bass clef.

My understanding is like this:

If they denote, for example, a G# as an accidental, then all Gs in that measure are sharped, but only for that hand. If they wanted the other hand to also play G#, they would almost certainly indicate that on the other hand's part of the score to remove ambiguity. In my short time (~6 months) at piano I've even seen numerous instances where editors (or perhaps original composers) denote in the measure after where the accidental occurs a natural sign on the next G, reminding you not to play sharp again (in my example).

Out of simplicity I think everyone keeps referring to which hand is being used, but like Andy said, which hand you use is irrelevant because it is up to the musician to ultimately decide how to play it. Sure, there are suggested fingerings, but they are just that, suggested. Not that I really think anyone is playing the treble clef with their left hand and the bass with their right that would just look goofy.

The accidental is for a specific note, such as A4 or G3 or what ever. I would assume that if there was a G4 on the treble clef and then a G4 on the bass clef on ledger lines above the staff, ya know a couple beats down, the accidental would hold, until the end of that bar. Unless, of course, otherwise noted.

I don't think I have ever seen it come up where the same note was written low in the treble clef and again high in the bass clef in the same measure with an accidental on the first one, where this scenario would even come into play. I'd be interested if someone would find such an example.

Having said that, if I were to compose such a piece, I believe I'd put the accidental on both for clarity sake.

What does it mean "for THAT SPECIFIC OCTAVE"? One octave down and one octave up from that note? So if there's a # next to C5, does that mean that in that measure C4 and C6 are sharp?!

Nope, only C5.

I would also be very interested in a published example of this situation (for my collection of notational oddities). I definitely agree with Brian that, if the situation did arise, it would be good practice to add the accidental to both staves.

The general rule, which has been stated several times here, was nicely summarized by Read (1979): "When an accidental not included in a key signature precedes any note, it affects the pitch it precedes -- and no other -- for that one measure only" (p. 129).

Read, G. (1979). Music notation: A manual of modern practice (2nd.). New York, NY: Taplinger Publishing.

Are you all sure about that "same clef"?

Wikipedia says "Accidentals apply within the measure and octave in which they appear" which implies that the clef does not matter.

And the clef does not make much difference either, as 'voice' makes more sense to me (I assume that that's how they call the various melody lines, usually indicated with upwards and downward staffs). So if there would be a difference, I would suspect it between voices, even if they were in the same clef. Yet, if the same voice is slurred to the other clef, I would the accidentals to be taken along with the slur.

Thank you to everyone for your responses. I am so relieved to hear the discussion. I was embarassed at having to ask. Just to clarify, my question referred to an instance when an accidential is shown in the treble clef of the grand staff, for example F sharp. If an F were to follow in the same measure, but in the bass clef, would it also be sharp? Or what if an F were to follow in the treble clef, but in the upper leger notes - is it also sharp? Obviously, once the bar line occurs the accidentals revert to the natural notes.

There is another useful discussion here which confirms it's just for the stave. I also double checked with my copy of Finale PrintMusic.

No and no. Only that F in the same clef, same octave.

On the other hand, the accidentals that comprise the key signature are repeated on each staff because they definitely do not carry over the other staves unless indicated (bitonal pieces, for instance, may have different key signatures on each staff). So, if key signatures apply to the staff, then it seems reasonable that accidentals elsewhere also only apply to the staff on which they appear.

It is also useful to keep in mind that clefs and staves are not the same thing. I would think the same rules apply if the upper and lower staves both carried the same clef.

I'm also still wondering how important this is in practice. Has anyone found some published examples yet of the same pitch in the same measure on different staves where one has an accidental that clearly applies to the other without it being explicitly noted?

Scriabin was crazy enough to have done this.

Haha, first try!

Scriabin Op. 74 No. 4, measures 7 and 8

http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/1/15/IMSLP12742-Scriabin_-_Op.74.pdf

In measure 7, the D is made natural in both clefs.

In measure 8, a G is made flat in both clefs.

There is also an occurrence in No. 5 in the 8th measure.



ETA -



In each case above, it appears that the accidentals are always clearly noted. I think a good editor would always do this, like in the Scriabin pieces above.