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#1764672 - 10/04/11 05:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

It's not about reaching a goal, but walking the path and working on one's craft.


That is it exactly, to enjoy the journey.
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#1764717 - 10/04/11 06:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
As players though we are involved in the music on an entirely different level than any member of the audience.



So profound Beeboss. It's so true. Playing just for an audience, most don't hear anything wrong with what I play. But yes, it would make me tremenduously unhappy to just ignore and say "it's good enough".

I just practiced for a bit just now just solo piano, and I might say that I'm actually liking what I'm hearing now. Not sure I ever did before. I'm sure if I recorded myself I would find those "bits" you're talking about. But in general, I don't feel so far away in the journey.

However, my live playing lags significantly still from my practice level. I know that because when I'm practicing I'm conscious of a list of issues that I cross check against. This check list must not yet be at the subconscious level.

Since this is a journey, then, I just have to get this done so I can migrate to a new list...
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#1764741 - 10/04/11 06:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee

However, my live playing lags significantly still from my practice level. I know that because when I'm practicing I'm conscious of a list of issues that I cross check against. This check list must not yet be at the subconscious level.


What this shows is that you have a different mental approach while practicing than you do at the gig. If you think having a mental checklist helps you play better in practice then try using the same mental checklist at the gig. It is worth a go.
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#1764763 - 10/04/11 07:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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But you know that would just cause anxiety. They always say, practice when you are practicing, when perfoming, just play (and forget about rules).

There's so much going on at a gig and you're basically just trying to fit your performance in a small window in between everything else going on. It's actually amazing that it's even possible to make a musical statement. Maybe in a trio there's more opportunity.

That's why I'm thinking the only rule may be to "simplify". Then let everything else evolve from that.
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#1764784 - 10/04/11 08:06 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Well whatever works I guess is the best thing to use.

If the reason you think you are not playing well on the gig is that you are distracted then that is the thing you need to tackle. Playing simpler may help some but what you really need is to develop more concentration. Easier said than done I know.
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#1764794 - 10/04/11 08:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Well as I implied in the original post, practicing with "concentration" hopefully transfers to a live performance and where at that point, concentration/focus is done subconsciously. But perhaps it doesn't work like that.

Or maybe it's just a habit of always in concentration that causes one to increase their capability. Reminds me of a gig I saw with Ron Carter. He STOPPED in the middle of a tune because he pointed to an audience member and said his tapping was distracting. And his forehead showed extreme concentration while he played. Seemed extreme though.

Someone actually told me at a jam session that my serious look doesn't fit and this person ran up to me, shook my shoulders and said, "relax, be happy, this is jazz."

I told that to my teacher and he said that guy was Full of sh.t and I should adopt whatever features I choose. Certainly seems like Bill Evan's way or even KJ really.

In any case, what I'm saying is that whatever I do, I hope it gets sunk in at practice time and so I don't have to be conscious of it at a gig. I suppose because it is jazz, some consciousness has to always be at the upper levels to improvise. Such a difficult genre...
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#1765272 - 10/05/11 03:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
Lately, I've been more aware of advanced piano articulations with soloing. Typically jazz soloing is at a fixed dynamic level and articulation is limited to swing. But playing more delicate tunes like Body and Soul reveal that finesse is a good thing.

So I've been developing my finger articulation a little better. I just bought a book recommended by Hal Galper (Contemporary Piano Technique) where some Russian techniques promoted by Madame Chaloff are discussed. Interesting how the first part of it focuses on (a) Velocity, (b) Finger movements, (c) Connection with breathing. Madame Chaloff of course is known as the teacher of many famous jazz pianists from KJ, Herbie, Kenny Werner, Hal Galper and even my teacher).

In the past, I've considered finger articulation to be unimportant to jazz since we seldom deal with pianissimo dynamics but it's becoming apparent to me that fast and light playing relies a lot on this.

I think a lot of Chick Corea's articulation is finger based.

So what do you think? Is finger articulation important to you?
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#1765367 - 10/05/11 06:29 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
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Loc: Chicago
Jazzwee: I disagree with your teacher a bit. I think when we play a gig we are there to entertain the audience, and the audience wants to see that you are having fun. Yeah, if I go see Keith Jarrett, I don't care what he looks like, but we're not at the concert level. An audience can pick up on the vibe in a band more than the details of what's going on. My bass player occassionaly gets upset if someone gets off form or enters at the wrong part. I always remind him we're doing this for fun and need to laugh about that stuff, not scowl. (he agrees) I know audience members enjoy the playing a lot more if they sense the band is having a good time, and then we enjoy it more.

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#1765378 - 10/05/11 06:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> "relax, be happy, this is jazz."
I thought west coast jazz was all about being serious
smile smile smile

Maybe the guy was from New Orleans or something...

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#1765381 - 10/05/11 06:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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I agree with the teacher, let the guy have the attitude he wants.

Let him smile, hum, frown, tap his foot, on 1, on 2, on whatever. Let him stand, or sit still. Not everybody's gonna look like Hampton or Garner.

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#1765410 - 10/05/11 07:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
Posts: 1213
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

So what do you think? Is finger articulation important to you?


I think it is very important. Really good players have a crispness in their lines that is only achievable with amazing control of the articulation.

I once had a teacher who had studied for a while with Charloff. He showed me what he called the the 'Charloff pinch' which seemed a bit weird to me but I practiced it anyway and still do occasionally.
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#1765422 - 10/05/11 08:34 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
jjo -- I realize that explanation of providing "entertainment". By the same token, does your band talk a lot when you gig? I've tried it a couple of ways and am settling into a "serious musician" kind of outlook. I don't talk much and don't encourage the singer to engage in audience participation. It doesn't seem to have a negative effect (since we are booked far in advance) and I felt it increases the musical experience.

And no, I don't think looking unhappy when one plays is a good thing. I'm only thinking about some artificial "game on" face. If I happen to feel happy, then I'll show it. Mostly we're just concentrating.

In all the big jazz concerts I've seen over the years, I can't recall anyone taking it lightly like a rock or pop concert. Must be a genre thing.

Knotty - how about your band? You guys talk a lot? In your case it's purely instrumental so maybe you don't even have a mike. It's the singers that want to talk.
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#1765426 - 10/05/11 08:39 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee

So what do you think? Is finger articulation important to you?


I think it is very important. Really good players have a crispness in their lines that is only achievable with amazing control of the articulation.

I once had a teacher who had studied for a while with Charloff. He showed me what he called the the 'Charloff pinch' which seemed a bit weird to me but I practiced it anyway and still do occasionally.


I think that's what it offers, a crispness in fast lines. I was just doing simple hanons today but with finger articulation (using light finger pulling -- sounds like that pinch). Boy, it felt like I was doing something completely different. Evenness was lost.

I think to maintain a smoothness to our lines, I'm guessing that sometimes we have to change articulation because our hand/finger position at a particular moment may not allow an alternative.

It's going to take a long time to accomplish this...

I was watching some classical pianists and some of their "pearly" lines require extreme curls in their fingers. Something you hear should be avoided all the time. But obviously used extensively at the higher skill levels.
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#1765473 - 10/05/11 09:47 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> Knotty - how about your band? You guys talk a lot? In your case it's purely instrumental so maybe you don't even have a mike. It's the singers that want to talk.

No mic. I keep one in the bag just in case but we never use it. Once in a while a drunk couple will come up and ask to sing with us. I just pretend I don't have a mic ...

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#1765479 - 10/05/11 10:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
I'd like to pretend I don't have a singer smile When they mess up, they bring the whole band down. And then they talk too much, mostly about what pertains to them, not the band. Sigh...

But no singer, maybe no gig.
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#1765737 - 10/06/11 10:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 639
Loc: Chicago
Jazzwee: I agree you shouldn't put on a game face. I think its more internal; Ii try to keep remembering that this is hard, but also a lot of fun and music is to be enjoyed. Then that will show. If the audience thinks I look too serious, it may be that I'm forgetting about the joy of music.

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#1765844 - 10/06/11 01:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
jjo- someone took a picture of the band and looking at the players, our bass player had a big smile on his face (it's just the way he always is), everyone else had a serious but happy disposition that implied concentration. And no one had a head down like Bill Evans, nor was anyone shaking their head and groaning loudly to the music ala KJ. We all looked -- "natural"? Now we are really happy playing (unless we can feel a train wreck coming) so I'm going to assume that that shows somehow.

Now I admit to be looking at my Ipad at the changes of the tunes a lot; half the stuff we play are unfamiliar tunes or in some strange key (for the vocalist).

To me anything beyond this is a game face.

You didn't answer my question though before. Do you engage in a conversation with the audience? This is what the guy told me to do aside from having the game face and attitude. Entertainment included "small talk". If I did that, I would fail.
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#1765864 - 10/06/11 02:11 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
JimF Offline
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Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1748
Loc: south florida
I could use some advice on buying a fakebook and was hoping the folks on this thread might help me out.

I've read elsewhere the "The Real Book" is one of the best, but when I look online I realize there are multiple versions of The Real Book (for C instruments, Bb instruments etc.) and that there is a "The New Real Book" as well as some vol 2's and 3's. I'm confused. My primary interest in this area is jazz standards, great American songbook type tunes, and maybe some pop from the 50's through 70's.

Can somebody point me in the right direction? (not looking for online download sources - I've got lots of individual lead sheets - find it too much of a pain to always sort through this mess -looking for one book that will have most of it).

I appologize for hijacking your discussion, but maybe there are others who are interested reading here too. Thanks.

Jim
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#1765866 - 10/06/11 02:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
>> jo- someone took a picture of the band and looking at the players, our bass player had a big smile on his face (it's just the way he always is), everyone else had a serious but happy disposition that implied concentration.
could we see that picture smile

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#1765867 - 10/06/11 02:16 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Jim,

Get the realbook volume 1 in C.
Then get volume 2 in C

Where I live, EVERYBODY uses this. I hardly ever see any other book at all.
The question that always comes is "Which book, 1 or 2?" when calling a tune.

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#1765873 - 10/06/11 02:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
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Loc: So. California
JimF - when you see reference to "C", "Eb", "Bb", those refer to instruments. I think Alto Sax/Trumpet is Bb, and Tenor Sax is Eb (for example). But you must ignore all that since a Piano is a "C Instrument". So you must only get something marked "C".

Now as far as Real Books go, the one you can buy at the store is Real Book 6th Edition and there's also Real Book2.

However, there's an underground supply of ALL the Realbooks going up to RealBook 5th Edition. In professional circles, you'd have to have all of them. Unfortunately, there's no way to buy these as they're not legal.

So I would start with Real Book 6th Edition 1 & 2. Then there's "Just Jazz Real Book" that has different tunes from "Real Book". That's a beginning right there.

That should cover a lot of standards. And if you have a musician friend somewhere with the PDF of the "old" real books, you are really covered. It's gigabytes large though.
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#1765877 - 10/06/11 02:30 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
Jim,

Get the realbook volume 1 in C.
Then get volume 2 in C

Where I live, EVERYBODY uses this. I hardly ever see any other book at all.
The question that always comes is "Which book, 1 or 2?" when calling a tune.


Lots of stuff missing from this though. For example, "Whisper Not". Most people only carry Vol 1 and for the rest, one should carry copies of the Lead Sheets.
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#1765882 - 10/06/11 02:48 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
Absolutely Knotty! I didn't realize we ALL had a game face on smile

...and we were well dressed.

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#1765886 - 10/06/11 02:51 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
awesome!

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#1765891 - 10/06/11 03:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 7096
Loc: So. California
smile Notice I always set up a mike for myself but I seldom use it.
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#1765907 - 10/06/11 03:21 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
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Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I did not notice. I didn't know you were a singer!

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#1765909 - 10/06/11 03:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
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Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 639
Loc: Chicago
Jazzwee: As for talking to the "audience" (most times we don't have one!), if we're playing just instrumentals, we don't. We'll announce at some point who we are and when we're playing next. We might do more, but usually don't have a mike set up. I think we should do a bit more. Our singer (who usually does half a set), says a few things, such as which tune we've done, and thanking people for being there. So she does talk to the audience, but it's quite brief. I see smiles when she talks.

I've heard Roy Hargrove's fabulous band, and he doesn't say a word. One tune ends and he starts the next. I've had several people comment to me who've seen him that "man, he doesn't talk at all." While they still love his music, it seems they'd like to hear from the person just a bit. I just heard Pat Metheny and Larry Grenadier, and they started out by playing 4 or 5 very intense tunes with no break. Then Metheny broke to chat a bit with the audience, and you could sense the audience relaxing a bit, taking in the fabulous music they've just heard. There is something about hearing the musician talk (are they shy; are they jokesters) that adds a welcome element to any show I've been to.

I don't think bands need some extensive patter; just a word or two can do the trick.

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#1765920 - 10/06/11 03:43 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
JimF - when you see reference to "C", "Eb", "Bb", those refer to instruments. I think Alto Sax/Trumpet is Bb, and Tenor Sax is Eb (for example). But you must ignore all that since a Piano is a "C Instrument". So you must only get something marked "C".


C: Piano, Guitar, Bass, Trombone, Flute
Bb: Trumpet, Tenor and Soprano sax
Eb: Alto and Baritone sax


Edited by chrisbell (10/06/11 03:44 PM)
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#1765924 - 10/06/11 03:52 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 366
Hey something I've been working on lately is slow medium swing bpm: 110 - 120
This is an annoying tempo because the eight notes feels so slow. Have you guys deployed any strategies for mixing up it up with double tempo and triplets? I tend to drift into triplets and becomes a mess. How does triplets and double tempo runs works within the bigger picture of tension and release?!

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#1765927 - 10/06/11 03:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
JimF Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/09
Posts: 1748
Loc: south florida
Thanks Knotty, Jazzwee and Chris. The Real Book (in C, sixth edition) it is. And maybe Vol. II after that.

You guys are great. Wanted you to know that I think lots of people like me follow your discussions with great interest even if we don't participate. What prompted me to get the fakebook is that I've been listening to so much jazz piano over the last few years that now when I hear a melody I start to hear where some more notes and chords would sounds good to me. I've stayed away from trying to improvise at all because I think I just need to focus on learning how to play the instrument and read music first. Maybe its time to expand my approach a bit.
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