Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops)

Hi!

I have a couple of questions regarding the Yamaha Avantgrand N1, and it would be great if you could help me out.

I’m a music teacher and play/practice the piano almost daily. Right now I’m using a Yamaha CP300 digital stage piano at home, and I’m finding it limiting. I can’t use a real acoustic because of my appartment isn’t sound proof enough.

I can only afford the Avantgrand N1 right now, but I would like to know if it compares favourably to N2/N3 playing wise. (Have no means of playing one before buying, although I’ve tried an N3.) If anyone here have had experiences with several Avantgrand models, including the N1, I’m very interested in your opinions.

I’m mainly wondering about the two omissions in the N1 feature wise. 1: Lack of ivorite keytops, is the plastic material on N1 satisfactory for demanding classical playing? 2: Lack of TRS (tactile response system), is this a big deal? I tried a N3, and the TRS did not feel entirely natural to me, but I didn’t test it for very long. Will the speakers create enough of a vibrating string sensation by themselves in the N1?

There very little info and user experiences on the net about the N1, so I would be very grateful for any critial advice you can give me. Thanks!

As for the plastic keys ... You're already familiar with plastic KEY TOPS, both on your CP300 and on nearly any acoustic you've played (real ivory is rare, right?). So I presume you're asking about the difference between PLASTIC KEYS and WOOD KEYS? I think the only way to know if there's a difference is to try both an N1 and an N2/N3. (I don't think wood is important, but that's just me. In the end, only YOUR own opinion matters, right?)

As for the tactile response system ... When I bought a Clavinova, I was surprised at the lack of key vibration/feel. I still had my upright at the time and I played both units. The difference is startling.

But I quickly became accustomed to the non-TRS feel, and don't suffer for it. I surely wouldn't spend much more money to gain the TRS. But, once again ... only YOUR opinion matters.

As for "will the speakers create enough vibrating string sensation by themselves in the N1?" ... I haven't tried an N1 but it's easy to conclude that the keys won't pick up any significant vibration from the speakers. There's just not much coupling of energy between speakers and keys.

Summary:
1. The only way to judge pianos is by trying it them yourself.
2. If you can "only" afford an N1, then perhaps the choice is moot ... get the N1. It may be a compromise for the no-wood and no-TRS, but you're still getting a unit that's head's above other digital pianos.

Mac3 answered the question about the keytops and even though I haven't played the N1 (or N2) the action is the same, although as you noted, the N1 does not have the TRS.

I do most of my practicing using headphones and by default Yamaha turns off the TRS when using headphones (though it can be turned back on). I don't miss the TRS and while it's a nice touch, so to speak, it should not be a deal clincher.

I wouldn't count on the internal speakers of the N1 transferring any kind of tactile response. If money were an issue (it wasn't when I bought my N3 but it is now), I would buy the N1. Yamaha was smart in introducing the N3, the most expensive model first, followed by the N2 and then the N1. All things considered, the N1 is the best buy. I could have almost bought two N1's for what I paid for the N3.

Buy the N1, but as always, be sure to play one before you make the final decision. Don't forget to bring along quality headphones as well.

I recently compared the N1 and N2 (for almost 2h on 2 different occasions). My conclusions after the 2nd visit were:

If I had $7,000 (that's the price I was given at the 2nd store!) and did not have to sell my acoustic to buy an AvantGrand, I would have bought the N1.

If I had been offered a good trade-in value for my piano, I would have bought the N2.

The N1 is very close to the N2 as far as the keytops go. I noticed a slight difference (fingers slide more easily on the ivory feel keys). But I don't think the N1 impaired my playing in any way, it was just something I noticed and probably would have gotten used to it.

However, the TRS did make it a lot more realistic and that's why I say I would have chosen the N2 if I had to sell my piano in order to buy an AG. I don't have any access at all to another acoustic piano in order to satisfy any occasional "cravings" for a real piano experience.

About the N1 speakers, if you have the volume high enough you can actually fell some vibrations - but not like the TRS though.

I felt the N1 provides a very satisfying experience though, even without the TRS.

Good luck!

Thanks for the replies! I obviously ment "Ivorite", (i.e. fake Ivory, vs. the cheaper plastic material on the N1 keys), I'm not exactly a newbie... Both N1 and N2/N3 obviously has wooden keys, the only difference is the key top material.

I do notice that vibration from the speakers affect the keys on the CP300, and I was hoping that since the N1 is built much more massive with long wooden keys that the effect would be more pronounced..

Thanks Mozart fan for your answer!

If you again get access to an N2 or N3, but not an N1, try different TRS settings (off, min, default (middle), max -- I think) and decide the TRS issue for yourself. For me, it's not a big deal to have it off, which is the default setting when you use headphones.

I like the TRS. On the N3 the TRS also extends to the pedals and I find it a very real sensation personally - bearing in mind the N3 was brought into my house the very same day a real Yamaha grand was taken out the comparison was certainly meaningful to me.

Everyone keeps mentioning the TRS but don't forget the N3 also has the soundboard resonator. In my opinion this is something that makes some of the behaviour of the N3 uncannily right - if you pound the piano the resonator just keeps swelling the sound. To illustrate this, you can sit down at the piano and play a chord with the greatest strength you can, ie, max out the piano's velocity (you obviously need to bang pretty hard to do this!). If you do this several times in a row the volume and timbre of the piano changes, just as it would on a real grand, the resonator doing "more" each time thereby simulating the behaviour of a real soundboard - the sound just swells and becomes absolutely towering.

I think the AG range is very well conceived in terms of the features/benefits of the three products - each has a unique position within the hierarchy with a well-judged price/feature identity. I think the N1 had to happen - the range would be incomplete without it. It is not too far away price-wise from the top-line offerings from Yamaha and the other maufacturers but offers the unique (to Yamaha) real grand action, which is the main "prize" and makes it the perfect practicing tool. One thing that strikes me is that I've never seen any AG owner that wants to get rid of it or is not very impressed and happy with their piano.

Cheers,

Steve

I own an N3 so I can't comment on the Ivorite vs Plastic Resin question. On the TRS question, I use headphones for practice a lot, and in this mode, the TRS is automatically off. You can turn TRS on in headphone mode, but you'll hear the soft vibrating sound they use to induce the vibration on the keys. So it wouldn't be completely silent via headphones if you turn TRS on. Because I want complete silence, I forgo the TRS mode in headphone practice. But while I don't miss it during headphones mode, when I play in the normal play mode, I can tell that it's on, but it feels natural enough that it doesn't throw me off or anything. I can switch back and forth easily with or without TRS with no problem. The point I'm trying to say is that while TRS is nice, it's not going to make a significant enough difference that will be a make or break decision on your purchase of the AG.

I've tried the Avantgrands, and for my purposes, the N1 is best. If you want the best of the best, go for an N3 which is probably superior to any baby grand or small grand piano, but with an N1, it's still in the same price range as an acoustic upright but is by far the better choice IMO.

I wasn't a big fan of the N2 in comparison, the difference between that and the N1 wasn't huge and it was several thousand dollars more. I only noticed the TRS when I turned the volume off too...

I'm certainly leaning towards the N1. The speakers on the N2 do seem better, though. That, more than the keytops and the TRS, seems to be what significantly separates the two models.

Thanks for some very interesting comments! I really appreciate the feedback. I agree that an N3 would be the ultimate choice, but at 2.5x the price of an N1 it's just far outside my budget..

I think I understand as far as the keytops. If I glide my fingers across the keys on my CP300 (Yamaha digital stage piano) it doesn't feel as frictionless as the material used on real (quality) acoustic pianos, but it doesn't really hamper my playing in any way.
From what I can deduce so far the TRS is a nice feature, but doesn't represent a big difference in playing comfort/experience when using headphones, which I'll do more than 90% of the time.

I'm going to talk with the local piano store next week, and see what kind of price I can get for an N1. Wow, I'm excited..

I would still love to hear more user experiences with the N1 vs. N2/N3, if there's more AvantGrand users on this board. Thanks again!

I haven't yet played the N1, but I didn't find the TRS on the N3 at all convincing (with headphones especially, it felt distinctly odd), and as you don't either, I wouldn't use that as a criteria for whether you buy the N1. Far more important is the sound from the speakers, which from the N3 is very impressive, and obviously cannot be matched by the N1. That's of no concern of course if you're going to be using headphones. I definitely don't think you should turn down the volume control while using the speakers to avoid annoying neighbors - you'll end up messing up your fine control of tone and dynamics.

As for keytop material, let's just say that of the (new) concert grands I've played on recently, only the Fazioli F278 had a distinctly non-plastic feel. Steinway D, C.Bechstein, Blüthner, Shigeru Kawai....all felt like plastic. But none the worse for it.

Thanks for all the comments and info about the AvantGrands. I was back at the local piano store today and tested the N3, and compared with various Yamaha acoustic grands.
This was my findings:
Ivorite vs acryllic resin: I tested two acoustic grands from Yamaha (a cheap and expensive model with each of the keytop materials). The ivorite definately feels more "luxurious", and has a slighty "worn" and nuanced texture, whereas the acryllic resin material just feels like plain smooth plastic. This time I tested the N3 with TRS on various degrees and completely off, and at the middle setting it definately added to the playing experience - it felt quite "right" even with headphones. Still, the key action still felt great without TRS.
In other words, if I had the money I would get a N3 in a heart beat, but I think I will be quite satisfied with the N1, even though the playing experience isn't quite as "luxurious" as the N3/N2.

It may just have been that the acoustics had more played-in actions. My AG is only now starting to loosen up just a tad - feels nicer now than when new - there was a very slight feeling of excessive inertia when it was brand new.

I've owned a few Yamahas, and the bushings sometimes need to be played in or even "eased" before the action starts to feel fast and light (less friction). I'm still waiting for that to happen on my Avant. But I think it will eventually.

But even before it's worn in, the Avant returns and is ready to play more quickly than a standard DP action, right? I ask because I notice you have both.

No. If you want fast, the Roland PHA III is fast, smooth, balanced and light. The Yamaha is a very good action, however. It has the heaviest touch of the three pianos I have. I've been getting ready the past few weeks for a performance of the third movement of the Mozart Sonata in C K330, and I've been switching among all three pianos, but I'm getting my confidence up on the Yamaha, because I feel like it will help me deal with a heavier action at the performance venue.

My N3 came fresh right out of the box, I watched it being opened.

It was playable from the start and I for one prefer a brand new action though didn't notice any particular stiffness or anything that needed to be played in.

If I were a millionaire I'd buy a new piano every few years just to have a brand new action, tightness and all.


.... very slight feeling of excessive inertia when it was brand new. I have no idea what that means but it does sound impressive.

I have to concur, the Roland PHA III in my V-Piano is the fastest graded hammer action I've ever played on. Especially compared to my Yamaha CLP990 with the natural wooden keyboard which does have hammers hitting a contact for that same grand piano feeling.

I'm a little confused. Can we qualify "fast" a little better?

The Yamaha has a real grand action with double escapement. Doesn't that make it better than any digital, at least for repetition speed?

I had heard that Roland is lighter (haven't played one in a coon's age), which would mean you could physically play fast without fatigue, but in what other way is it fast?