Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum When a Teacher quotes the tuning price

I posted this in the Teacher's forum:

The customer's Aeolian built Cable console was one note flat, not tuned in 20 years, with sticky keys. I told the customer I'd need to pitch raise her neglected piano three times and gave her my price... and she responded her teacher said tunings should cost $xx.xx (a price that is much less than market rate for standard tunings, and further, doesn't include the extra work of raising pitch one note and fixing sticky keys). Due the "helpful" price advice the teacher gave this customer, the customer would not pay enough money to get their piano up to pitch. So the piano is tuned, but it is still 35 cents flat in pitch. I did fix the sticking, though.

While this teacher may be well meaning, she is mis-quoting the market with prices below what is fair, and the teacher has no idea if the piano needs extra work after 20 years of neglect. This teacher has no business quoting prices for tuning.

Do you, as a teacher quote prices for tuning? You shouldn't, after all, we Technicians don't tell our customers what you teachers charge - you set your prices, and we set ours.

Enough said.

Agreed Bob. I have encountered the same thing from time to time. I call the teacher that does that informing them of the appropriate charges. They wouldn't after all, attempt to tell someone what a furnace repairman would charge, or would they?

I ran into that scenario once that I can well remember. An organist from a church told the owner of a bed & breakfast household that a "piano tuning" should not cost more than X amount of dollars. The Baldwin Hamilton in question needed far more than a "piano tuning". I confronted that organist and explained in detail all that I had done and how much time it took. I asked him how in the world he could come up with that figure. He said, "I don't know, somebody else told me that."

It became a very uncomfortable situation. I asked him if he knew anything about other than a "piano tuning" that a piano may require. He said, "No". "Well then," I asked, "Considering all that I have said AND done, would you not agree that what I asked for my services is not a fair price?" His answer was rather vague. He said that he never realized that a piano would need anything else than a tuning. He had never heard of a "pitch raise". He had never heard of any of that "other" that a piano may need.

I asked him if he thought that a piano technician should not be able to earn enough money to sustain a business. He replied that he thought that "piano tuners" only did that for "extra money" on the side. He was quite embarrassed by the confrontation. "I guess you did a good job" was all he could say.

I still, after about two decades, maintain that piano that is located in a bed & breakfast house on Lake Wisconsin twice a year. The owner often has guests who play it and who compliment the owner on how nicely it sounds.

Oh, what obstacles a "piano teacher", "church organist" or "high school band director" can create! The very people whom piano maintenance customers may trust for an educated opinion can be the very people who know the least!

When I took my kids to drama class at a local community center I arrived too early. I noticed a sign about piano lessons being offered in room X, and wandered in there. Indeed there was a baby grand in there. I played a note and it was horribly out of tune. Unplayable I would say. On the keyboard there was a note from the teacher "please don't practice on this piano without washing your hands before. I am fed up with having to clean the keyboard every time."

It seems even "professional teachers" don't care if a piano is in tune or not.

Other case; I'm attending a conference a well-to-do university college and there are grand piano's all over the place, including in the room where the presentations are held. Again I played a single note on this piano and it was unplayable. Nobody seemed to care.

Just a rant, sorry.

Kees

No, as a teacher I don't quote the price for other peoples' work in the piano world. I do make recommendations as to techs I prefer in my area, however I don't expect any sort of discount in return from the technician.

I am always happy to help a student/friend/colleague select a new or used piano, though I would never accept a commission from a store for recommending one of their pianos. About the most I'd expect is a nice meal from the person I'm helping during the search...

After the customer decides on an appointment time, and while I still have the customer on the phone, and before I drive to the customer; I make sure they know and agree to the charges. I ask how long since last tuning etc. and explain Pitch Corrections and extra charges. I once had a customer take almost an hour discussing the charges before she wrote out the check. I think she only wrote the check because my beat up 15yr old Malibu was blocking in her two Mercedes.

No one should dictate what other's prices should be. I do not have the need for income from piano work, but I still try to maintain fair rates for the sake of those who do need to make a living from it, as well as satisfying my pride in my work. Also, if I should not be able to do it any more, I would not like my customers to have unrealistic ideas about what it should cost.

I do not like it when anyone posts a price for service here, as conditions vary so much. For instance, my house is the smallest house I have ever lived in, and yet when I looked at Zillow, it has the highest estimated value. Even now, real estate values in this area are extremely high compared to many other parts of the country. That has to be accounted for when we work in this area.

This was impressed on us a few years ago when we were showing one of my wife's friends from the Philadelphia area around San Francisco. We were walking in one of the nicer areas of the city, and the friend remarked that the houses were very impressive, that they must be in the $400-500,000 range. We told her, no, they were more in the $2-3,000,000 range, and that $400-500,000 would be low for a house even in our more modest neighborhood.

When I am asked what it costs to tune a piano, I give them my basic rate, and say that if the piano is very flat, I need to tune it more than once, and "I charge accordingly," a phrase that is sufficiently vague. That gives them a good idea of what it will cost. Today I tuned a piano that I had last tuned in 1997, and I had told them that it was probably going to need more than the basic tuning. It did, I charged them a bit more, and they were satisfied, as was I.

The situation that prompted this post isn't uncommon in my market. I gave the price range to the customer upon scheduling - the customer then spoke to the teacher who came up with her own "suggested tuning price". This put doubt in the customer which was amplified because she didn't speak English and brought the neighbor in to interpret our price discussion. The teachers "suggested tuning price" was well below market for a standard tuning, so to keep the peace, I agreed to raise the pitch 60 cents for the cost of a standard tuning. Fortunately, I'm a very quick pitch raiser. My other options? walk away and lose money, or demand a higher price though the neighbor interpreter which would have taken more time that I wasn't getting paid for. I only got her to pay the standard fee by telling her I'd tune the piano twice. I won't tune the piano again. Thanks to this teacher, the customer will again fight again over price. I don't like confrontation.

There have been other times I've held my ground for a higher fee, which usually took about 15 minutes of justifying to the customer. Teachers should not quote our prices.

Bob:

In this situation can you be sure that the teacher actually did tell the customer such a low price?

Next time the teacher quotes the tuning price .... send the teacher to tune the piano.

There is such a thing as professional decorum. I think it is fair to expect a level of professional decorum in doing business.

It is good to make a reasonable attempt to establish that with the teacher. In the end either you will reach an agreement or not.

This economy amplifies the character of how we do business. It gives us the opportunity to refine our message and our service every day.

Sometimes like the situation Bob describes, its unavoidable. But, I don't run into that problem too much...fortunately!

But it might be because we very clearly communicate our rates over the phone so Jane (who works the phones) might occasionally encounter the problem, not sure.

By the time I get to the site, whomever is awaiting me has been well prepared for our rate, and things go smoothly. However, I do have a very firm policy of never letting the issue of price spiral out of control. While we get great referrals from many teachers in the region, where I DO notice a problem is when the person who is the BUYER is not present, i.e. somebody is "in the closet" in the relationship. That never works well for us, since I cannot adequately express to the person not present what the piano needs. This is common at some churches, and almost all schools or venues.

Where there is a doubtful person, I suggest a price and move on, usually without charging. It happens so infrequently that its a non-issue, but there again, communication is the key.

Especially regarding repairs, I have found that email communication eliminates questions, and as an aside just in case some of you haven't yet found out, Chuck Behm's excellent email promos are VERY helpful in sending some detailed and professional communication to clients who cannot be present, or who may have questions relating to pricing etc. Really helps eliminate pricing issues and assists to make the sale.

In fact, just yesterday I emailed one of the new promos to illustrate a grand regulation for a nice couple with an older but fine grand piano, and we took the job in, same day. With some repairs and moisture control, its solidly a 2K job.

Happy customer, Happy technician!

RPD

Usually I am not asked what my fee is so I don't mention it. There has not been a problem. If there ever is, then they can have the tuning for free. It would be such a rare occurrence that the occasional flat tire would be more of a nuisance.

Someone once told me two rules to live by. One, don't sweat the small stuff. Two, its all small stuff.

The issue here is someone speaking for you. They shouldn't do it!

Some techs post their pricing on their websites. We don't, because we find that when we do the calls slow down. People think (naturally) that the job is one price or another, and our best asset (US!) is out of the discussion loop.

So, we just answer phoned in questions relating to pricing, and its working so far!

RPD

I agree. I hope Bob talked to the teacher directly. Who knows, the conversation between the customer and the teacher might have been far different than is supposed! Remember, English is not her first language. And in many cultures bargaining is expected.

But my post was about where the general discussion has headed: when and how the fee is mentioned.

I post a price range on my site, since I offer online scheduling. This way clients can see right there the most it's going to cost them (barring repairs, of course) and schedule without first having to call.

If I was to set up a website, I would not post the price. When they call, then you have personal contact for a sale. Much more memorable than a glance at a website.

But my site is more than a glance, it's a way to schedule. And 75% of my appointments are scheduled there. My Google and Bing campaigns direct searchers to the site. Few people use a phone book any more! Without a price range there, they would be less likely to use the site to schedule and would call instead, defeating the purpose and convenience of having all the information necessary to quickly schedule online.

I have sometimes spoken to teachers in the past on this issue. Sometimes it's been resolved, other times not. On occasion, the teacher takes offense. I don't post prices on my site for the same reasons Upright and RPD mentioned. My prices are in line with the market, but when a customer calls, it's my chance to sell myself and my services - and to evaluate the customer and the piano.

I'm often put in the same situation when a client asks me to recommend a piano teacher. I do. If I'm asked what they charge for lessons, I just say that that would be best answered by the teacher.

One problem among many, is that the general public has this crazy idea, (where do they get it???) that piano teachers who are actually, MUSIC teachers, not piano teachers, they are not teaching piano tuning, repairing or anything to do with pianos other than playing them, know more about pianos and piano tuning than piano tuner/technicians do. They also think that teachers have a better ear than we do. And of course, we MUST know how to play, in order to tune! Again, where are they getting these stupid ideas anyway? My sense, is that it must be coming from the teachers or musicians themselves because, it certainly is not coming from us.

What's even worse, is that many music teachers create and encourage this misinformation because even some of them think they know more than we do! The best teachers that I have encountered, admit to the fact that they know very little about pianos or piano tuning. I respect that. Just as playing the piano is not my field, tuning and repairing, appraising etc., is not theirs either.

One more thing. People don't listen well either. Today, for example, I was asked how much a furniture repair person would charge for a repair on a piano. A piece was missing, it was high gloss and would be an extensive repair. I said, furniture repair is not my thing. I do not do it therefore, I have no idea what it would cost. "Well, all I want is a ball park figure." I have no idea.... "Not even a guess?" I said, look, if, it is not within my means to properly quote you an estimate, then, why in the world would I guess at what he might charge you? That would be wrong of me, I haven't a clue and as I said, I don't know. Here's his number, call and ask him instead." Once more, she insisted, but, it's a part of the piano... I smiled and said, call him....

I've had three piano teachers in my life.

The most recent got his MM and DMA at Juilliard, and he is convinced that Boesendorfers are poopy and that a really good Steinway D projects better than any other piano.

The second one, MM from Juillard, thinks that composite action parts remove the soul of the piano.

And the first, MM from Manhattan, recently told me that "every tuning I've heard done with an ETD doesn't hold". This, coming from someone who built a two manual harpsichord, and is currently building a Stein fortepiano replica....

Pianists, even at the highest levels of accomplishment, think and say really silly things, sometimes!

Who tunes the teachers' pianos?

In 1974 Alfred Brendel wrote, "A course in regulating and voicing of pianos should be obligatory for all piano students in music schools."

"Many pianists do not even realize how much they are entitled to expect from a concert grand."

"It almost seem as if the piano firms turn that ignorance to their advantage and sometimes release from their factories instruments with the most amazing congenital defects and teething troubles."

Still true? Marketing opportunity? There are 468422 posts in the Piano forum. How many are about dramatic improvements in touch and tone after regulation and voicing?

By the way our local tuner is a music school graduate and a piano teacher.

Alfred Brendel is a very smart man, and one of my favorite pianists! Damn shame he retired....

I think alot of this business about piano teachers knowing more than technicians do about what's needed, how much to charge, etc. is human nature. Someone else's job always looks simple when viewed from the outside.

This situation reminds me of a conversation in the movie "Days of Thunder" when Cole Trickle, the driver (played by Tom Cruise) and Harry Hogge (Robert Duvall) go at it. See if you agree:


Tim Daland: [to Cole and Harry] ... Except you two. I've got a question. What is the one thing you absolutely need to do to win a race?

Harry Hogge: That's pretty damn obvious...

Tim Daland: You keep quiet.

[to Cole]
Tim Daland: You need to finish the race!

Cole Trickle: Tim, I realize Harry's been around a long time. I'm not sayin' that his ways are antiquated but it'd help to have a car that handled properly and didn't blow engines.

Harry Hogge: Well if he wouldn't get excited and over-rev the son-of-a-bitch the engine wouldn't blow. Now, Cole, when you shift the gear and that little needle on the tach goes into the red and reads 9000 RPMs, that's BAD.

Cole Trickle: It's also my fault that the tires blow if you ask this old fart!

Harry Hogge: Well, heck yes it's your fault. There's 40 other vultures out there who manage to finish the race on THEIR tires. You see Darrell Waltrip usin' up HIS tires?

Cole Trickle: There's nothin' I can't do with a race car.

Harry Hogge: Well, that's the difference between you and me. There's only so much I CAN do.

Cole Trickle: Well, that's obvious!

Tim Daland: Harry, he doesn't need to appreciate your job to do his.

Personally, I take matters into my own hands when it comes to teachers who I tune for, and let them know what price to quote when someone asks for tuning, with the stipulation that there are usually extra charges, especially for an instrument which hasn't been serviced in some time.

An interesting thread! Chuck Behm

Yes, also note how many people ask the teachers in there for advice on what to buy, how much the piano should sell for and almost any other question and, note who answers these questions? Where did they get this information and what little bit of knowledge that they do have??? Perhaps, by reading or, from a piano technician? So, the teacher then, passes along, this information, making THEM look like the knowledgeable person that they are not...

Here's the problem. These days it's very common to get 'ripped off' by various people providing services of all sorts. As a result, it's easy to understand why someone who is unfamiliar with a particular service industry would feel uncomfortable just taking a random service person's quote as fair and reasonable. The tuners here know what they charge is fair but why would someone who doesn't know anything about you or your industry just blindly believe you. I would get quotes to start getting an idea what to expect or ask someone who has used the service before. I know some of you don't like people getting quotes either but to me it's a reasonable thing to do.

Someone who has never had a piano tuned before would have no idea what to expect. Because of this, they well may ask their piano teacher what they can expect to pay to have their piano tuned. I would expect that the piano teacher should be able to provide a range of reasonable prices so the person has some idea what to expect.

You, of course, should be able to justify your prices. I expect anyone I call for services to be able to do that. If they can't maybe they are charging too much. If they won't. I wouldn't use them.

I've had people call me to ask for prices and I understand perfectly and am happy to discuss what I charge and why.

Roger brings up good points. I remember once just for fun, I asked people who didn't have pianos and didn't know anything about them, "How much would you say it costs to tune a piano? Just take a good guess." A couple of people said "Around $500!"

You have the same customers ... what are the opportunities?

We've kicked around the idea of some type of piano technology course for music students at the University. Just a short one or two day thing. Having a piano tech presentation at the piano teachers association meeting may help educate some.

I remember trying to explain to a teacher the instability a 50 cent pitch raise on a new piano brings. The teacher complained my 3 month old pitch raise on a new piano wasn't holding. She wanted the piano re-tuned for free. I told her the piano simply needed tuning, and that was normal on a new piano, delivered 50 cents flat from the store, and I'd be happy to tune the piano, for my normal fee. The teacher looked at me with a blank face, my words going in one ear and out the other, and the customer listening to it all didn't know what to think. Finally I said to that teacher "you aren't following me are you?". That teacher was a dim bulb.

It's not a bad idea to memorize the following from Steinway:

"We recommend that your tuner be called at least 3 or 4 times a year. You, however, are the final judge and should have the piano tuned as often as you think necessary. To put the matter of tuning into perspective, remember that a concert piano is tuned before every performance and a piano in a professional recording studio, where it is in constant use, is tuned 3 or 4 times each week as a matter of course."

I'd love to invent a timer device that makes middle c stick every six months!

When I had my first keyboard lesson (harpsichord) I was taught first how to tune the instrument to some acceptable level. After that we started working on playing the thing.

Kees

Jerry,

I have enjoyed talking with you.

First, I thought you, as a tech, would smile after reading about me, at the age of 13, tuning a piano and then trying to explain why I did something so stupid.

However, is it possible that those of us who hear beats are born with this ability? As a young kid, I could tell the order in which tracks were recorded. In other words, on one record I had, each successive track on side one had a unison that was slipping a bit more. Side two was corrected. Apparently a tech touched up the problem. I don't hear that on today's recordings.

On a famous live recording of Horowitz, 1953 (three long-play records at that time, I think), there was at least one unison that absolutely howled by the time he got to the encores. Most likely one pin was not set correctly. It astounded me that he would not have a tech in the wings come out and fix it. That's when I learned that these guys don't hear in detail. And it was shocking.

There is a particular Ravel piano concerto where the RH plays very high for a minute or two. On the best recordings, those keys (the strings) are tuned incredibly sharp, but it works because there are not octaves going on to unmask the truth. It sounds great, but I would wager the top octave is stretched a good 15 cents sharp, or more.

And other pianists can't hear it. In any other composition, there would be more complex harmonic movement going on there, and the beats coming from 3rds, 5ths and octaves would demand lowering the pitch closer to the norm.

All the best,

Gary

Hi Gary,

Thanks! I've enjoyed talking with you too. I forgot to mention something about you fooling around with your piano at aged 13. That sounds like something I would do. Mostly, just because someone told me NOT to do it... I started fooling around with tuning at age 12 with my dads guidance and encouragement. I could actually do a fine tuning by the time I was 16, dad said.

Yes, I do think, certain people are born with more of a natural ability to hear than others are. I've known tuners that have tuned their whole lives and were never able to tune worth a crap. I'm skipping the part where some of them never cared.. These are tuners that actually tried to tune well but just could not. They did not have the ear for it. I think that is what worries me most about people that tune strictly using ONLY an ETD. If they cannot hear, when there is a mistake that the ETD makes, and it makes LOTS AND LOTS of mistakes, they haven't a clue that they just let something bad slip by. Ear training for tuning is essential for all piano tuners.

I've known others that have tried and tried, worked with mentor's and still were never able to develop their ears to the point of being able to do a great tuning. I remember my dad, one time, after he worked with this musician from "up north" here in Michigan for many years, finally telling him to; "go home, do something else, I'm sorry but, you're just never going to get it right. You do not have the ear for it." He wasn't trying to be mean. He was telling this person the truth. After 5 years of training, he wasn't any better than he was after the 2nd year of training.

Most people do not realize that musicians ears are not trained like tuners ears are trained. We, and they, are not listening to the same things while we are tuning or while they are playing the piano. Customers almost always think that piano tuners have to be able to play the piano in order to tune them. They also, almost always think that tuners must have "perfect pitch." And, if someone does, "oh, my, what a gift, they must REALLY be able to hear well." I'm always dumb struck by that. I reverse it on them. "Do you think that I have to tune, in order to play the piano?" Well, no, "but......" But, what? One has nothing to do with the other which should be obvious when I just asked if I have to be able to tune, in order to play the piano. Does tuning sound like I'm playing? Of course not. Does playing the piano sound like they are tuning it? Of course not. That's because, we're not...

Most pianists play the piano out of tune to some degree or another most of the time, so they become accustomed to not listening to it very carefully because they can't do anything about it except pay to have it done again. Some people who have played a very out of tune piano for a long time are even shocked by the difference and don't like it, at least at first.

... and what about piano teachers?

Same diff Ian. They can't hear it either. They are "music teachers." Musicians in general, I don't care what instrument they play, cannot hear if a piano is in, or out of tune. None of them especially, has an ear as good as a piano technicians ear. Yes, almost, anyone can hear it when it - (and these are the key words here) is...."BAD ENOUGH" but, when it comes to being a little bit out or very little out or many times even way out, they cannot hear it and should not be expected to hear it because??? Their ears have not been trained to hear it.

I think it would be more accurate to say that everyone has their own tolerance for tuning accuracy. It is inborn in some people, and developed in others. It also can be disregarded if the circumstances call for it.

I went to hear Ravi Shankar last night, which called for some stretching of my sense of tuning.

I thought I already said that? Just took me longer...

How about a little sticker to put on the plate near the pins giving the date you tuned it -- or the date it's due again. Sort of like car mechanics do.

I was thinking of something more annoying, like "beep beep beep, time to tune me...beep beep beep), However, I've tried that when making telephone reminder calls, and for some reason, customers kept hanging up on me!

Re: stickers on pianos, get the customer's permission before sticking stuff on their piano and in my experience, no one ever looks inside an upright, or under the music desk on a grand. I've recovered several mutes, a screw driver, and a key banger left under grand music desks; two years later in a couple of instances! The customer never knew they were there.

I just send reminder postcards.

I put a note on my postcards.....I tell the customer to fold the card in quarters, insert folded card between the keys at middle C.....if the note starts to stick, it's time to tune the piano!

Or how about this postcard:

It's time to tune your piano.....To determine how much it's going to cost, please follow directions........

1. Figure out how many years it's been since you tuned the piano

2. Fold this postcard once for each year the piano hasn't been tuned

3. If the card slips between any white keys without moving them, it's going to be the regular price

4. If the keys move when you slip the postcard in, it's going to be a bit extra

5. If you can't slip the postcard in between the white keys, it's going to cost a bit more than that!

6. Call me ASAP to schedule!

The solution is simple enough. Let the teacher quote whatever price he likes; the student pays him or her that price; the teacher then pays the tech the real price.

Jeff's point about my not knowing what the teacher actually said is a good one. The other day a customer called and said that her child's teacher had said that she should get the piano tuned, and by me. I tune for the teacher, and this is a familiar sort of call. I gave her my price for tuning a piano not tuned for more than a year and we set an appointment. Two days later, she called back and said that the teacher had said that the price would be (a figure significantly less) and that I was charging more than anyone else in the area, so she was cancelling the appointment.

Now I had in fact tuned the teacher's piano for the lesser figure (my price for tuning a piano tuned several times a year). At first I thought that the teacher had told her that "my price" was always the price I had charged him, and I was upset with the teacher. But when I thought about it, the customer had told me an untruth -- I definitely am not the highest-priced tech around here -- so it was not impossible that whatever the teacher said to her had been rethought by her to her advantage.

Which is the kind of customer I don't want anyway, so it all worked out.

(Whenever we talk about price, though, I remember the customer who stared at me when I told her the price after I had finished tuning -- something I don't do in that order any more. "The other tuner only charged four dollars! And he stayed All Day!" Now, to be fair, the customer was 101 years old, and I think that the service call she was remembering took place in, maybe, 1938.)