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#1765934 - 10/06/11 04:18 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: HwyStar]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: HwyStar
Bennevis and Dave: I plan on taking one of my sub woofers and connecting it to the N1, N2, and N3 this weekend (at the store) to see if rounding out the bottom end helps those pianos sound a little bit richer. My thought; as you know Dave, was to give the pianos a bass boast; like a loudness control on receivers, so that the pianos sound good at a lower volumes. I will post my results on Sunday.

Don't forget that the AG's can be regulated if need be by a qualified tech. If its to stiff then have them soften it up!



I wouldn't be surprised if just a little bit of extra bass did the trick.
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#1765955 - 10/06/11 04:54 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1598
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Dave and Kippesc, have you adjusted the touch settings on your Avant Grands? Does that make a difference to you? If so, what settings for touch do you use?

I had not realized until looking at the manual this afternoon that the touch settings were adjustable. (I found this at p.22 of the current N3/N2 owner's manual.)
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"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1765972 - 10/06/11 05:30 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
I keep the piano on its default touch setting (2). I've tried the other settings, noticed a difference in response, but kept using the default setting.
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#1765988 - 10/06/11 05:45 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 396
Loc: United States
I usually just turn it on and start playing. I will try changing the touch this weekend when I have some time.
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#1766033 - 10/06/11 06:40 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1421
In my experience with the N1, the overall action, even on it's lightest touch setting, which is 1 (from a selection of 1-3), the N1 is noticeably heavier than the Steinway B at the Jazz Workshop I'm attending. I like the fact that my N1 is heavier because in my experience, most acoustic grands are NOT taken care of, and the actions tend to be heavy and unresponsive. Thus, transitioning to from the N1 is no longer a chore for the fingers. smile

I'm in the camp that feels, or rather hears the AvantGrand sounds better through its speaker system. To my ears, with headphones, it tends to have an artificial, somewhat static-ness to the sound in some areas. For example with the piece, Claire De Lune, the decay with headphones, becomes quite evident. When playing more jazzy, the sound through headphones doesn't seem to bother me as much.


Edited by ZacharyForbes (10/06/11 06:41 PM)
_________________________
Kawai RX-2
Nord Piano 2


"Life is a lot like jazz...it's best when you improvise."

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#1766047 - 10/06/11 07:03 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
I think whether the headphones on the N3 sound better or worse than the speakers probably will largely depends on the quality of the headphones. I don't really know if a piano store really keeps a very high quality pair of headphones lying around or not.

I have tried several different pairs of headphones on my N3 and they all sound quite different from each other. Some sound great, and others horrible.

But overall, I find the N3 sounds through the headphones very nice. I wouldn't say more nice or less nice than through the speakers, because they're different sound experiences. I'd have to say either through headphones or speakers, the N3 sounds impressively nice to me.

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#1766056 - 10/06/11 07:13 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: ClsscLib]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Dave and Kippesc, have you adjusted the touch settings on your Avant Grands? Does that make a difference to you? If so, what settings for touch do you use?

I had not realized until looking at the manual this afternoon that the touch settings were adjustable. (I found this at p.22 of the current N3/N2 owner's manual.)
I much prefer the more sensitive setting on my N3. It allows me to play more expressively. Enough to be worth the trouble of having to set it on each time upon power up (because it always goes back to the default setting). It's really not that much trouble really, just push a button down and hit a key. But you have to remember to do it. After a while, it's automatic and you don't even think about it.

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#1766119 - 10/06/11 09:08 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Volusiano]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3340
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Dave and Kippesc, have you adjusted the touch settings on your Avant Grands? Does that make a difference to you? If so, what settings for touch do you use?

I had not realized until looking at the manual this afternoon that the touch settings were adjustable. (I found this at p.22 of the current N3/N2 owner's manual.)
I much prefer the more sensitive setting on my N3. It allows me to play more expressively. Enough to be worth the trouble of having to set it on each time upon power up (because it always goes back to the default setting). It's really not that much trouble really, just push a button down and hit a key. But you have to remember to do it. After a while, it's automatic and you don't even think about it.

It's amazing that such an important parameter can't be saved to a patch. There's always something to work on with DP technology. Still, the AG's are getting a pretty strong reputation on this forum. I may end up with one myself one day. I'd love it if Yamaha could develop their own fully modelled piano and marry it with the AG action. That would be sublime. By the time I am in the market for one it might be a reality.

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#1767042 - 10/08/11 09:19 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: ando]
Volusiano Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/10
Posts: 770
Originally Posted By: ando
It's amazing that such an important parameter can't be saved to a patch. There's always something to work on with DP technology.
I'm sure they can save it if they want to. They do allow a few other parameters to be saved on the N3. Just not the majority of them. I'm at a loss as to why. Maybe it's an oversight. But it's almost as if they don't want to do it on purpose.

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#1767063 - 10/08/11 10:08 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Volusiano]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 396
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
Originally Posted By: ando
It's amazing that such an important parameter can't be saved to a patch. There's always something to work on with DP technology.
I'm sure they can save it if they want to. They do allow a few other parameters to be saved on the N3. Just not the majority of them. I'm at a loss as to why. Maybe it's an oversight. But it's almost as if they don't want to do it on purpose.


I was surprised this weekend when using the on-board MIDI recorder on the Avant that, in playback, there does not seem to be a pause button. If you stop playback and then hit play again, you go back to the beginning of the track.

They kept the interface very basic/clean, and I prefer that to the confusing complexity of the Clavinovas. But it would be great if future versions of this instrument had a user-friendly interface accessed through a laptop or an iPad.
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#1773841 - 10/20/11 12:52 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Volusiano]
kippesc Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 396
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Volusiano
Originally Posted By: ClsscLib
Dave and Kippesc, have you adjusted the touch settings on your Avant Grands? Does that make a difference to you? If so, what settings for touch do you use?

I had not realized until looking at the manual this afternoon that the touch settings were adjustable. (I found this at p.22 of the current N3/N2 owner's manual.)
I much prefer the more sensitive setting on my N3. It allows me to play more expressively. Enough to be worth the trouble of having to set it on each time upon power up (because it always goes back to the default setting). It's really not that much trouble really, just push a button down and hit a key. But you have to remember to do it. After a while, it's automatic and you don't even think about it.


I finally got around to trying this out today, and you are right: Touch sensitivity level 1 (triggered by pushing piano/voice + the top A#) is a significant improvement over the AG's default setting. Interestingly, altering the sensitivity of the keyboard affects not only the on-board sounds but also the MIDI output, so Ivory II works better too with the more sensitive setting.
_________________________
Steinway B
Yamaha AvantGrand N2
Roland RD-700NX

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#1774403 - 10/20/11 10:52 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
ClsscLib Offline

Platinum Supporter until Jan 02 2013


Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1598
Loc: Northern VA, U.S.
Thanks, Kippesc. I was hoping you would report back on that issue. Very helpful!
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"People may say I can't sing, but no one can ever say I didn't sing."

-- Florence Foster Jenkins

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#1775189 - 10/22/11 02:37 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Mental Nomad Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: Karnevil
However, it felt like the key return on the AvantGrand is slightly slower than on Yamahas acoustic grands. The hammer doesn't hit anything on the AvantGrand, whereas on an acoustic grand the hammer hits strings.


Actually, the hammer DOES hit something. It hits a "strike sensor" in a sort of elastic pad, from what I've seen.

So it may not be identical to a felted hammer hitting tensioned wire, but it is certainly getting a rebound back down.

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#1775274 - 10/22/11 05:20 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
...


Edited by Karnevil (01/14/12 10:57 AM)
Edit Reason: Ignore...

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#1820861 - 01/08/12 12:22 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
Yes! Finally getting my Avantgrand N1 on Tuesday. Tried it on Saturday in a local store, and I was really impressed. I can understand the members here who has an Avantgrand N3 say they might as well have gotten an N1 today (because of the price). Even with the lack of TRS and cheaper keytop material, switching between the N3 and the N1 (the store had both models) gave almost an identical user experience IMO.
Also the N1 has a very practical size, and is a very good looking instrument. The only thing I felt lacking in the N1 was dynamics when using the speaker system. A real piano would have a greater dynamic range. However, I would never pay as much as the N3 costs for a digital piano, not here in Norway at least...
N1 is a very good compromise between quality and price. Great to finally have a authentic practice instrument at home (going from a Yamaha CP300)..

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#1820872 - 01/08/12 12:47 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
Good to hear! You won't regret it. I love mine very much indeed.

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#1820978 - 01/08/12 03:31 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Karnevil, enjoy your new piano when it arrives Tuesday and there's no crime in posting a photo. smile

Don't forget to post the price and dealer information in the sticky thread.
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AvantGrand N3, CP5

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#1820989 - 01/08/12 03:53 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1421
Karnevil, congrats on the AG N1! Had mine 6 months and don't regret it at all. It's not only a very practical tool for building technique, even for demanding piano work, but its also a very handsome and classy piece of furniture that is always a conversation piece when having company over. smile
_________________________
Kawai RX-2
Nord Piano 2


"Life is a lot like jazz...it's best when you improvise."

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#1821005 - 01/08/12 04:19 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
Thanks! Zachary, my sentiments exactly. smile
Can't wait.. smile

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#1824667 - 01/14/12 10:31 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
Sorry for not having any photos, my mobile camera sucks...but anyway.. smile

Wow, I have to say I'm very pleased with the N1. I've always been picky about keyboard sounds, so I was a bit sceptical of the Avantgrand piano sound at first. It seemed a bit "overtweaked" with EQ, giving among other things a rather dominating lower midrange area. After having used the N1 for a few days, I have to say I like the sound a lot. It's very expressive and detailed, giving great note seperation when playing chords.

Also the grand action is pretty much perfect to me, and the general design and build quality is top notch. My only real critisism is an unnecessarily slow CPU/chip, which uses 6-7 seconds to respond after a short midi recording, that's just dumb.

I went back to the piano store, and did a comparison with the N3, just to see if the N1 still holds up. My impression was that the TRS does make the piano "come alive". However, me using the piano almost exclusively with headphones, the N1 is the perfect choice (the price gap between N1 and N2 is HUGE). I'

I can see myself paying for the next high end hybrid model from Yamaha. There are still improvements to be made, like a more detalied/dynamic soft pedal and TRS response, and even more timbre variation and nuances in the piano samples. I'm however very impressed by Yamahas hybrid pianos! smile

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#1824734 - 01/14/12 12:25 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1421
Very glad the N1 is working so well for you. For all the reasons you love yours, I love mine. It's just a super practical tool. I still want an acoustic grand and will get one when I can because there's still a special something with acoustics that not the AvantGrands have, esp a well kept 6'+ acoustic.

Post pics when you can! smile
_________________________
Kawai RX-2
Nord Piano 2


"Life is a lot like jazz...it's best when you improvise."

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#1856176 - 03/04/12 03:59 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Singleton Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Switzerland
One more thing concerning the difference between N1 and N2: The local dealer here said that the N1 is manufactured in China, whereas the N2 comes from Japan; and that the N2 is therefore of better quality.

I couldn't verify this in the shop - and as the N2 is too expensive for me anyway I ended up buying the N1. But the quality is not what I expected for this price:
- A key regulary got stuck (which I managed to fix today spending several hours dismantling and reassambling the instrument).
- I'm not so keen on playing with earphones and I had thought I could play without and just turn down the volume enough, but that doesn't work: With the volume down, there is often no sound at all when I press a key - and I cannot play reasonably like this.
- There is someting strange with the sound: Every now and then, after I press a key and keep it pressed, the sound changes. It's like modulated. It's difficult to describe. It's like some special effect you would produce with a mixing desk - and it's quite disturbing.

But if the N2 is any better in these respects, I don't know.

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#1856435 - 03/05/12 08:03 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
Singleton:
I didn't know about the China vs. Japan manufacturing, hmm.. Having said that, I tested a N1 and N3 side by side, and side keyboard action and sound was identical. My N1 also works just fine. No stuck key, nothing strange with the sound. Maybe you're hearing the added sound level when pressing down the sustain pedal - this is a "feature" on all AvantGrand models. There are however a couple of twangy fff samples in the 5th octave. As far as your second caveat, I'm not really sure what your problem is there...

Personally I think the prices on N2 and N3 are a bit over the top, especially the price premium from N1 to N2. Sure, ivorite keys and TRS are nice features, but I just can't justify paying additional thousands of dollars (or over 40000 Norwegian kroner) for that. Of course if I had loads of money laying about, I would have gotten both an N3 and acoustic grand piano. I do sometimes miss more response from the N1 keyboard, although the TRS on the N2 and N3 isn't entirely dynamic/realistic either. Either way, the AvantGrand is as close as you possibly can get to the real thing with digitals today.

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#1856436 - 03/05/12 08:09 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Singleton]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
The local dealer here said that the N1 is manufactured in China, whereas the N2 comes from Japan; and that the N2 is therefore of better quality.

What's the name of the dealer who made that comment?
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#1856451 - 03/05/12 08:55 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
motifmm6 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/12
Posts: 89
AG N1, 2 and 3 seems like the luxurious line of DPs marketed by yamaha. Beautiful cabinet, top quality sounds, speakers and cutting edge sampling. They are priced almost amongst the most expensive DPs.

But at the entry level, N1 does not feature ivorite keytops and TRS. The CP300 vibrates slightly due to the position of the speakers and this gives a similar feel to the TRS.

How does the higher end clavinovas compare to the AG N1? In terms of touch and sound. I think higher end CLPs should come quite close.

On key action being heavy or light, it is very subjective. Grands are usually heavier in action. Used pianos after being heavily played tend to be lighter too, due to reduction in fricton. Some people prefer heavier action for practice as it builds up finger strength whereas some prefer lighter for faster response.

For example, CP300 and CP50 used the same action which is heavier. The CP1 and CP5 action is obviously lighter.

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#1856472 - 03/05/12 09:42 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Gigantoad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 336
I find it highly unlikely that the N1 would be manufactured in China while the other two models aren't. I would rather think that they are all manufactured there.

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#1856488 - 03/05/12 10:04 AM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: motifmm6]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1421
Originally Posted By: motifmm6
AG N1, 2 and 3 seems like the luxurious line of DPs marketed by yamaha. Beautiful cabinet, top quality sounds, speakers and cutting edge sampling. They are priced almost amongst the most expensive DPs.

But at the entry level, N1 does not feature ivorite keytops and TRS. The CP300 vibrates slightly due to the position of the speakers and this gives a similar feel to the TRS.

How does the higher end clavinovas compare to the AG N1? In terms of touch and sound. I think higher end CLPs should come quite close.

On key action being heavy or light, it is very subjective. Grands are usually heavier in action. Used pianos after being heavily played tend to be lighter too, due to reduction in fricton. Some people prefer heavier action for practice as it builds up finger strength whereas some prefer lighter for faster response.

For example, CP300 and CP50 used the same action which is heavier. The CP1 and CP5 action is obviously lighter.



The N1 sounds vastly better through its speakers than any lesser Yamahas. This is in no small part due to the 4 channel high speaker system Yamaha uses along with the different sampling techniques Yamaha uses with the AvantGrands. The action of course is on another level to everything else Yamaha makes DP wise, but it should as the AvantGrand uses a customized acoustic piano action.
_________________________
Kawai RX-2
Nord Piano 2


"Life is a lot like jazz...it's best when you improvise."

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#1856649 - 03/05/12 03:22 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Dave Horne]
Singleton Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/04/12
Posts: 10
Loc: Switzerland
Originally Posted By: Dave Horne
The local dealer here said that the N1 is manufactured in China, whereas the N2 comes from Japan; and that the N2 is therefore of better quality.

What's the name of the dealer who made that comment?

It's a fairly large store called "Musik Hug" in Zurich, Switzerland; here's the link:
http://www.musikhug.ch/
In fact, I was there more than once, and they seem to be very sure about the China vs. Japan issue - and I guess they know what they're talking about.


Edited by Singleton (03/05/12 03:24 PM)

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#1856701 - 03/05/12 05:09 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
Karnevil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 154
Well, it would explain the unreasonable price jump from N1 to N2.. Either way, I don't think it's gonna impact the N1 build quality. Mine is in impeccable condition, no build flaws/QC issues what so ever.

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#1856711 - 03/05/12 05:32 PM Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1 vs N2/N3 (TRS and keytops) [Re: Karnevil]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1421
Mine is too. I am not surprised the N1 is built in China, but the fit and finish is as good as the N2/3, so I'm not worried about it.
_________________________
Kawai RX-2
Nord Piano 2


"Life is a lot like jazz...it's best when you improvise."

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