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Hi everyone,

I'm looking for a piano for my 6 yr old son. I was always thinking about Yamaha U3 because it is a very popular model and has very good resale value. But when I stopped at a piano store in San Jose, I was attracted by the powerful sound of Ritmuller. The sales person also strongly recommended the Ritmuller UH121R even they also carry a few Yamaha models (but not U3, I didn't tell him I'm interested in U3). He is a Yamaha certified technician, and was a big Yamaha fan before he met Ritmuller UH121R as he said. In his opinion, Ritmuller UH121R is much better than Yamaha U3, no only the sound but also the materials used to build the piano. I don't know anything about piano, but not sure if I should trust the sales person's recommendation either.

Because Ritmuller UH121R is so new in market that I couldn't find many reviews online, I'm not sure if I should take the risk to buy it, or I should buy the popular Yamaha U3. If you have any experience with the Ritmuller UH121R, I would like to hear it from you. Also, how much are current market prices for Ritmuller UH121R and Yamaha U3?

Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thank you.

Hello,

Try typing "Ritmuller 121" into the search box at right, for some other peoples' observations. The Piano Buyer site (free) has information about retail pricing for everything in the US market. The negative barbs from a salesperson about a competing brand they don't sell are often half-truths and "noise" that can best be ignored.

Size-wise, the proper competing Yamaha model would be either the U1 or T121, as the U3 is taller.

I've only played a Ritmuller upright once and I was extremely surprised at how good it sounded.

Superior quality in a piano is harder to prove but sound is not.

As dealers we have been sold out on all Ritmueller 121 and 132 uprights for quite a while now, not because of our incredible salesmanship but because people seem to increasingly discover Ritmueller's fundamentally different tone.

It is important that you make the same experience or giving you any advice here would be pointless.

If you cannot identify this tone or feel more confident with the Yamaha, than this perhaps is the better way to go for you.

Perhaps ask for another opportunity whereby both pianos can be played and listened to one more time, ideally side-by-side.

You'll be the judge - who else?

Norbert

Excellent advice! It's good to sdeek the input of others, but your opinion is what counts. If you like the tone and touch of the Ritmuller best, then there is your answer.

Trust yourself. You really can't go wrong with either of those pianos.

The new generation Ritmuller pianos do sound good, especially when compared to earlier Rimullers and other Pearl River products.

However, a fair comparison to a Yamaha U-3 is not to be found at an authorized Ritmuller dealer who is not an authorized Yamaha dealer, has no U-3's in stock, and deals in grey market Yamaha imports to take sales away from new Yamaha products. (I'm assuming you're shopping at Silicon Valley Piano.)

You really should evaluate Yamaha U series pianos at your San Jose authorized Yamaha dealer and then decide what you think.

The line about the salesperson being a big Yamaha fan until he met Rittmuller should not be taken seriously. The line that the Ritmullers are better built than a Yamaha U3 is bunk. I would have more faith in the piano than in that salesperson. He has neither a new or a used U-3 to offer you. He wants to sell you what he has.

More great advice!

I have a U3 and never considered anything else. Yamaha is a solid brand. My piano was so close to a Steinway in sound that I couldn't tell the difference.

Money is important, but considering how long we keep our instruments, it shouldn't be the most important factor in selecting a piano. Concentrate on the sound and feel of the piano. Nothing else really matters.

Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

Let me be a bystander on this one and learn from others.

As Ritmueller dealer I admittedly prefer the tone of Ritmueller pianos in comparabe sizes to virtually all Yamahas pianos but let's talk about the other aspect commonly referred to as "quality". I'm serious about it - hope all others are.

Who here can make a credible case of one piano over the other?
Especially interested how a conclusive comparison of quality is being made between 2 makes and on what exact basis these "conclusions" are being made.

Sitting on school desk awaiting lecture. Hoping many willing to join me. Serious. This should be a most insteresting course in piano design, quality of components and piano manufacture.

Let's hear from the experts with specific experience hopefully involving both makes and models. Tuners, techs, rebuilders, dealers. Larry Fine and piano designers.

Let's be open and make constructive contributions.Here and eager to learn on this one.

Norbert

Nothing against a fine U3 or Yamaha, but the only Yamaha that even occasionally gets compared to Steinway sound is the concert grands.

I am glad you are happy with your piano, but in your case, I wouldn't use a Steinway comparison as justification with others. Steinway makes apples and Yamaha makes oranges.

Ahem...

I might be an idiot saying this in this particular thread, but I think my C7 sounds just as good (or if not better) than a hamburg D I played in competition about 4 months ago! More than comparable, IMHO.

But then, as you mention, I am in that "occasional" group, so that's that, there you go!

Re: ritmüller, I think you should go with the one you like better. Build quality, quite good, but probably consistency better in Yamaha. Sound quality and tone to personal taste.

Good luck!

There's initial quality and then there's track record. Rit has little track record where as Yamaha, especially the U series, has a long and stellar record.

As for initial quality, it's hard for the common shopper to tell. Paper specs can be misleading. Construction flaws and compromises may not be obvious. It would take a piano builder to really judge the build quality.

That said, I haven't heard anything about Rit having poor build quality. It might not be a Steinway but there certainly haven't been any dire warnings from the techs and owners out there.

Well, when in Germany last time I did talk to some of Germany's piano builders about exactly that, one of them being a Steinway dealer.

The guy [very nice man..] stated openly that pianos on the whole are more bought on image than *quality*, Steinway taking the cake.

In his case he didn't compare Steinway to Ritmüller but certainly to some other top German makes he also carried.

The question left unanswered was how one determines "quality" in those cases where sound of one piano appears to be equal or even preferable to another.

Think about it: food is judged by "taste", ingredients for sure, instruments by "sound" and their materials & specs perhaps - so where does the factor of "quality" independent from all this weigh in - all others things being equal?

Reputation, track record, pricings all aside, let's talk for a moment discernible quality in building a piano.

With at least some variable outcomes in tone and touch.

Allowing us to perhaps then to make at least some kind of comparative analysis in the end?

If reputation or "track record" were taken at all into consideration here, perhaps there should be no "rating" of pianos for the first 20 years at all - only perhaps "opinions" or observations based on individual experiences?

With the Euros trumpeting that reputations are established in hundreds of years, not only decades...

So, on what basis do we place a judgement of *quality* outside the touch and tone of a piano?

And how would this relate to the case of Ritmüller and Yamaha?
Or any other "roughly similar" pianos?

Very interested to learn what others have to say.

NORBERT

Norbert,

No slight to Ritmuller. I believe I have a favorable impression of these pianos on record here even before you decided to carry the line. I guess from your comments here that you're out of stock now, but if you are noticing that each container received is as good or better than the last, you have reason to be optimistic going forward.

All the same though, it's kind of hard for you at this point to be a bystander.

My basic advice to the OP was to form his impression of Ritmuller at the authorized Ritmuller dealer and to form his impression of the U-3 at an authorized Yamaha dealer. I certainly don't think he should rely on the sales spiel of a Ritmuller salesman who can't even offer him a grey market U-3, much less a new one.

As to the question of who can make a creditable case for one over the other, the onus is on that Ritumller salesperson. He indicated that the sound and build quality of the Ritmuller was "MUCH BETTER" than that of the U3.

In light of Yamaha's decades of U-3 production, the consistency of delivered product which Fine himself clearly states to be that to which all makers (not Asian makers) aspire, and in light of the opinions of techs who service pianos for issues large and small, it seems pretty ambitious to make this statement.

So how does that salesperson in your words "make a credible case" for Ritmuller quality being much better than Yamaha U-3 quality? I don't know. You tell me.

This is the misunderstanding. Sounds like is idea I was commenting on. There are instruments that share design philosophies and elements that will sound more alike. A U3 and a Steinway K do not share those design elements that would make them sound similar. Between a C7 and a D, not so much. I'm not talking comparisons of condition, quality, etc. I'm just talking about Sounds like.

"As good as..." is a reasonable subjective assertion. Regardless of which you prefer, on the spectrum of piano sound design, they will not be neighbors.

I actually meant that they sounded very, incredibly similar, very hard to tell the difference in tone/touch. But in saying that my piano sounds just as good, I meant that I liked my own piano better, as the small noticeable differences that could be identified made the difference to me. Hope it clarified a bit!

I hate to, but I somewhat agree with Turandot - the only fair evaluation can be by comparing the pianos at either the authorized dealers for both products, or at least by having them side by side.

In my shop, I have both an excellent 1992 U3 in stock, as well as a U1 and so the comparison can easily by made. However, a more accurate comparison would probably be to compare the U3 to a 132 Ritmüller since they are similarly sized instruments. The 121 is more comparably in size to the U1.

IMHO, the U1 does not have the depth of tone or performance capability that the U3 demonstrates, and although the size is actually a small factor, there are obviously substantial differences (either in components or craftsmanship) that make the difference in these two VERY large. In the Ritmüller lineup, I don't think you will find that the differences between the 48" and 52" are as great as between the U1 and U3. Again, just my shaded and biased opinion.

So, to the OP, I would compare the U3 to the 121 and 132 and see which you prefer.

That certainly provides a comparison, and it's very kind and thoughtful of you to place those pianos in your shop for the purpose of one-stop shopping easy comparison.

However, at the risk of being repetitive, I still think that the best advice for the OP is to "to form his impression of Ritmuller at his authorized Ritmuller dealer (or the one up the road a bit ) and to form his impression of the U-3 at an authorized Yamaha dealer.

I stopped in at one place and the salesman was telling me what a bad piano the U1 is. And he had a U1 that proved it! Amazing.

I have not returned to that store.

What was it like? And did hé say what pianos there were GOOD?