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I've got an idea for Giant steps that may help some people. Bear with me, I'm not near a piano, but I remember thinking of the first bunch of bars in terms of descending whole tone scale in major and minor triads:

Bmaj, D7, Gmaj, Bb7, Ebmaj (Am, D7) Gmaj, Bb7, Ebmaj, F#7 Bmaj could have the descending triads, either in root or inversion.
Bmaj Am Gmaj, Fm, Ebmaj Gmaj, Fm, Ebmaj, Dbm, Bmaj


Line up the bottom triads with the top chords and you have some interesting whole tone scale ideas. Currently I've been looking for hidden structures in tunes and this was one that came up. I'm not saying that this is the only way to approach these bars, but it is a way: My way, and probably some other person's too, that discovered this 30 years ago. I'm just posting how I approached these bars on a particular practice session.

So, please don't jump all over me about why it doesn't make sense to you. This is just an idea, as JW was asking for some ideas. In any case, it's not a great stretch of the imagination being that only two chords per sequence are extended (using 9s to arrive at the upper structure)

Also, Giant steps is also a great candidate for 7/4 time and others. I also prefer playing this piece starting on a Cb chord. (Sorry, Custard, couldn't resist!)

Thats a good idea. Bass players often take that approach on giant steps, playing the root notes down a whole tone scale, B A G F Eb (Am7 D7) G F Eb Db B (Fm Bb7) etc



As if its not hard enough already!

Scep, I'm not understanding this. Can you give me an example?

An example of the triad thing? I'll post a clip to avoid controversy and wrong notation, but not sure if I can do that tonight. But in the meantime look at what I posted, treating the top line of the chords as bass notes (BDGBbEb) and the bottom line triads as going on top of the bass notes. You can arpeggiate them in bits to get interesting and lyrical melody ideas.

Ok Knotty and Beeboss, I'm going to start thinking more in the jazz piano mindset and use flats. Thanks !

What is a TOP LINE OF A CHORD? 3rd, 5th, 7th?
What is a BOTTOM line? Is this some inversion thing?
BDGBbEb are already bass notes.

Just look at the B chord. What do I do there?

No, no, no...I said look at the top line of the two lines of chords I posted. Use that as the bass line, then the bottom chords (of the two lines of chords I posted) will be the triads you put on top. The two lines of chords I posted should line up on your computer screen; they do on mine...

Wait, I see now that they don't line up after a while. Just look at the first four chords in the top row (followed by the explanation) then you'll see another row of chords, that initially line up with each other. Is that clearer?

Got it. That truly confused me. So where does the WT Scale fit into all this?

BTW for me, Giant Steps messes me up in only one spot:

|Bb7 EbMaj7 | F#7 BMaj7 |

If I just practice all the permutations and combinations in the jump between these two bars then I'm golden. I just never persist.

BAGFEb--descending whole tone scale based on the chords and some extensions.

Why this part? It's the same as the first bit, but down a maj 3rd, no? Is it playing in the key of B that's difficult? Maybe just think of it as Cb, like I said before.

Just to clarify..
Bmaj7, D7/A, Gmaj7, Bb7/F, Ebmaj7

or as a single line, starting from these whole tone bass notes...
(B,Csharp,Dsharp,Fsharp) (A,B,C,D) (G,A,B,D) (F,G,A,C) (Eb,F,G,Bb)

This is just one of many possibles

Played slowly it's not much of an issue. But played quickly with only 2 beats per chord, it's hard to come up with a melody and then land on a resolution tone with so little time. There's not enough time to develop an idea.

In a lot of G.S. there's 4 beats per chord.

Playing some triad patterns here might actually remove the thinking and that will help me.

I've really avoided trying to play G.S. with pentatonics or arpeggios ala Coltrane to see if I can just use the ear. Obviously, that has not been a successful enterprise, at least not if played fast. Works as a ballad though

That's even clearer!

Giant Steps - so it sounds like what you guys are talking about are 4 note scalar patterns starting on some chord tone as this guy is doing here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS5PnmdAHuE

I haven't been able to play Giant Steps fast because I've never tried to memorize patterns, which is why I slow down at the | Bb7 EbMaj7 | F#7 BMaj7 | point.

Is this really the way to handle this? I know there are other patterns other than scalar so I'm not limiting it to this. I don't have a problem improvising without thought on all the other changes in this tune. This is the only point where a wrong note choice (ending on a non-resolution tone) doesn't sound good to me.

Sounds simplistic though and I'm not one to go for shortcuts. I've been trying to go with the ear but maybe it's not doable?

BTW - I tend to work on GS in spurts. Then I give up and move on when I hit a wall. I'm thinking that it's not that different from VE. Just played faster usually.

Maybe you missed when I posted this before, but why are you stuck here and not the first four bars as well? They are exactly the same, but just transposed down a third. Whatever you are doing in the first four bars you can do here. And to clarify, you've put divisions where they don't exist in the tune. The Bmaj7 is a resting point of four beats, right?

I'd suggest you are stuck in this place in particular because it's hard to play in Bmaj.

One thing that I do is to transpose the entire song, play it in a bunch of different keys and see what comes up when I try to solo in the different keys. Some are much easier to play in than others. And from those 'easier' keys, I'll borrow the ideas and transpose them back into the 'difficult' key.

I had to think about it as I practiced. Some are easier because you have 3 chords to deal with in the same tonality. Some are easier because the tonalities are not so far apart.

The EbMaj7 jumping to BMaj7 tonality is a jerky jump to me. So it's the transition that gives me a problem. Then I realized that part of it is that my fingers are in the wrong place by the time I have to play in B. It isn't B itself, since there's a lot of B's in VE, Nef, Chick tunes (Matrix, Windows), etc.

It's like a wall though. It's hard to conquer.

You still didn't address the first part about what I said. It's the same progession as the opening bars, so why the trouble with this particular spot? Are you ignoring this?

Huh? It's not the same progression. For whatever reason, G to Eb is easy enough as a transition. Eb to B not too easy for me.

You're not reading what I'm saying. I indicated that my fingers end up in the wrong spot. The transition is different.

It'll come. Now that I'm aware of my fingering issues, I have something specific to practice.

B D G Bb Eb------G Bb Eb F# B is EXACTLY the same progression. What are you talking about????

Yes I am. You said you had trouble with the progression from Eb to B (assuming through the F#). You didn't indicate it was simply a fingering issue, otherwise I never would have responded.


See below. This is where you started, JW. What at what point did you say this is a fingering issue?


And, there are no two bars that look like that in Giant steps in any case, you've misaligned the bars: |Gmaj7 Bb7|Ebmaj7 F#7| Bmaj7 /|

And yes I misaligned the bars when I wrote it. But you get the point...