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#1769113 - 10/12/11 07:35 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: pianosxxi]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: pianosxxi
Sometime ago, in the 80's, one technician asked me if he can set a temperament by 1/2 steps. My answer to him was, if it sounds great why not, go ahead and do it. At that time, I knew technician that had extraordinary ability, he was able to tune a piano without any muters. He was a concert tuner in Moscow who tuned pianos for various classical performances.


No mutes at all? Not even when tuning the initial string of a unison?

Quote:
Maximillian, in his video, show another approach to how a piano can be tuned. I appreciate him taking his time to share the knowledge and unique ability and various techniques he use during piano tuning process.


It appears he is using a wrench that affords no leverage at all to bend/twist a tuning pin rather than turn it. Maybe you can tell us why you appreciate that? Is trying to instruct him on better techniques somehow wrong, you're saying?

Quote:
Few may not understand his method, but from their response I can also observe and say that they have no idea what they're doing themselves. Instead of negative comments, I would rather see a video recording to how they approach piano tuning (with commentaries). It will be interesting to compare.


Well there you have it! Those who use correct tools and pin setting techniques have no idea what they're doing themselves. I guess that settles it. smile
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1769212 - 10/12/11 11:32 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
jayr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 74
Loc: Middle Tennessee
Unfortunately he might be the only tuner in the area and any that have to come from a long way charge mileage.

I only watched about 20 seconds and had to stop it.

Jay's Piano Tuning Service

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#1769222 - 10/12/11 12:09 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: London, England
While I cannot answer for pianoxxi, what he seems to me to be saying is that there are people on this forum who don't know the half of it.

These people make themselves known by their gratuitous judgements. (anybody, when making a judgement of anybody else says more about themselves that the person they think they are judging), think about it!!. Look at the last few judgemental statements on this thread, they are mainly telling us of their lack of experience, in other words, what they don't know, or what they mistakenly think is the only way..

Alfred Howe wrote a book, Scientific Piano Tuning and Servicing, an American publication, I believe, from the '30's. In it, he devoted a couple of pages to tuning without wedges.

There is a famous woodcut from the 1840's of a diminutive but portly piano tuner in a frock coat reaching up to tune a very tall upright. We've all seen it, those of us that take an interest in our history. I can't find it on the web, just now but I'll look for it. I'm sure most of you know the one I mean, it's in a lot of books. In this woodcut, he is tuning with a T-hammer and I don't see any wedges, do you?

I can tune without wedges, I practiced it when I read it in Howes' book, I rarely use it today, just the odd unison correction and such.
Its just a matter of following the string that's moving in pitch. Takes practice, though, and is a good excercise. Another excercise is to sound the note a half step (or whole step) below the unison or octave you are tuning simultaneously with the note you are tuning. You will be surprised how much more clearly You can fine tune an unison or octave with this other sound going on.

One of my teachers, a well respected concert tuner in London, told me he was taught to tune with a T hammer.
When I was a professional musician, the tuner at most of the studios and theatres I worked in regularly tuned with a T-hammer, uprights and grands, and used only single wedges between the unisons. He did a solid job, those pianos got hammered for hours on end and stayed in tune. This was in the 1960's. I only saw him use a lever once this was on a small new upright that was known for it's tight pins

So far I haven't heard Max tune what we are pleased to call a good unison. That doesn't mean he can't, or doesnt care to, (I've known 2 tuners, both in major cities, who deliberately tune loose unisons and are never short of work. Do they know something I don't? they are not stupid people.

Max is tuning with something that behaves like a T-hammer but with the advantage of added leverage should it be needed


I saw a rotational movement in the first tuning manipulation of his tool and, when he let go, the shaft did not spring back up as it would have done had he flagpoled excessively. It did later in the video, though.

We are taught to support the lever with our thumb to prevent flagpoling. This is assuming that the flagpole set of the pin is optimal or 'correct'- it may not be. We are taught to ignore the flagpoling tendency of the pin. I say that we ignore anything at our peril. Many tuners bang on the keys brutally in tuning, this is totally unnecessary if the flagpole tendency is taken into account and used to your advantage. It's going to flagpole somewhat anyway, none of us is so good that it doesn't., at least, I haven't seen any.

I have had the privelige of working with both types of tuner and many that manipulate the lever in such a way that encompasses both methods., (I'm talking of tuners constantly involved in concert work). Neither way is 'Better' but give me the one less wearing on the ears and body in general.

None of this is a question of good/bad, black/white, it's just merely different.

I have in my posession 2 pianos that are 100 years old. I know they have been subject to this lifting technique and T hammer technique I spoke of in my last posting. Both pin blocks are no different that any other piano that age. Very nice to tune, whichever method I use.

Do you give yourself a choice of many different approaches to tuning, -You don't know the half of it.

Thanks, pianosxxi and you guys who came out of the woodwork on this subject.

There's more.














_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1769224 - 10/12/11 12:18 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: London, England
Oh, I tried to tune a piano in halfsteps years ago purely by melodic interval, I failed miserably.

I'm going to try it again, though, just in the temperament octave. Who knows what I've developed in the last 50 years.

I tune melodically by halfsteps in the high treble on a pitch raise, I do it first, before the middle treble so theres less flattening by tuning the high treble in sequence. I have a tendency to go sharp, but on a pitch raise, that's a good thing.

Ever tried it?--You don't kno..............
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1769260 - 10/12/11 01:19 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
RXD:

Yes, I agree. Those that think they know it all should listen to us that really do! laugh laugh laugh
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1769286 - 10/12/11 02:11 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: London, England
Jeff.
I only know what I know.
What I don't know, I can't be responsible for. Startng with my astonishing lack of ability to put them little emoticons on my posts.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1769298 - 10/12/11 02:25 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: rxd]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: rxd
Jeff.
I only know what I know.
What I don't know, I can't be responsible for. Startng with my astonishing lack of ability to put them little emoticons on my posts.


That's right. And "people on this forum who don't know the half of it" can't be responsible for what they don't know either.

The emoticons are simple. Click on "Switch to Full Reply Screen" and then the smiley face. There will be a selection to choose from. The ones you use more often will be easy to remember. Like if you type : and right after ) you get smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1769330 - 10/12/11 03:48 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: London, England
My point exactly.

I'm familiar with them smile just can't get the yellow fancy ones to work on an iPhone. Oh. I get it. It doesn' t convert to the yellow one till I go to preview post.

Thanks. Jeff. Something else for me to play with while I'm away from home.


Edited by rxd (10/12/11 04:10 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1769423 - 10/12/11 06:31 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Loren:

Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?


Jeff, my post is pretty easy to read; you know what I'm saying.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1769650 - 10/13/11 02:10 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Loren D]
pianosxxi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 217
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Loren D

Those who use correct tools and pin setting techniques have no idea what they're doing themselves. I guess that settles it. smile


With this in mind, one should understand the following:
The meaning of correct tools can at times be questionable. Especially when using the L shape tool, that create much more unnecessary bendings on the pin and pinblock than T shape.
If techs cannot explain why their technique is better or give an explanation why Max's technique is wrong. I have to come to one conclusion, they are likely have know idea what they are doing themselves.

Originally Posted By: Loren D

It appears he is using a wrench that affords no leverage at all to bend/twist a tuning pin rather than turn it. Maybe you can tell us why you appreciate that? Is trying to instruct him on better techniques somehow wrong, you're saying?


Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.
_________________________
Gene Korolev, RPT
President, Master Piano Rebuilder

PIANO SOLUTIONS XXI
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Contact: 818.503.0800

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#1769728 - 10/13/11 03:53 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: pianosxxi]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pianosxxi
[quote=Loren D]Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.

Уважаемый Евгений, тронут до слёз развернувшейся полемикой вокруг темы: «Настройка с помощью медиатора». Не скрою, что не ожидал от нашего международного форума подобных широких, а самое главное конструктивных моментов обсуждения вопроса. Огромное спасибо всем техника, давшим лестные оценки в мой адрес. Позволю Евгений, Вас просить, в очередной раз протянуть руку помощи с просьбой перевода моих строк, чтобы была понятна моя позиция. Только Вы, как практик, способны донести до мировой общественности мои чаяния и личные переживания. Начну с лирической ноты, чтобы люди могли понять, почему Максим делает «всё шиворот-навыворот». Я начал пользоваться интернетом сравнительно недавно, менее 2 лет тому назад по причине моей бедности. Когда я увидел клипы в сети, как некоторые настройщики настраивают, не скрою, был удивлён и даже обескуражен, теми методами и подходами, которые они применяют в вопросах темперации и их техникой работы с ключом. Это вовсе не значит, что они это делают неправильно, и только я знаю, «как надо настраивать пианино». Меня удивила техника работы ключом, а именно, очень резкие и непродуманные вращения, ведущие к завышению требуемого тона, а затем отпускания. Вы, наверное, Евгений понимаете о чём я? Думаю Вам как практику настройщику, работавшему в Союзе, хорошо известно, что колки в советских инструментах очень часто установлены в пробке вербильбанка или окошке посадочного места пробки (панцирный вид рамы) не по центру. И, подобная практика не допустима. Движения при настройке «Беларуси» или «Токкаты» сродни работы сапёра на минном поле. Здесь каждое движение необходимо сначала проанализировать с точки зрения физики и философии врача «не навреди», иначе не будет ни то, что строя, а даже его приблизительного подобия, а уж потом плавно вести давление всей руки, игнорируя вороток ключа, подключая сжатый кулак в основание ключа. Я иногда, простите за некоторую нескромность, «вытягиваю с того Света», очередную советскую модель пианино и искренне вместе с клиентом радуюсь за инструмент на котором был поставлен «крест». Как я пришёл к тому, что работаю самодельными, но очень качественными ключами, с точки зрения физики? Вновь должен сделать лирическое отступление. Когда я был очень юный и обучался в Уральском Государственном музыкальном училище, по программе необходимо было изучать предмет «общее фортепиано», а я народник (баянист), то родители пожертвовали в то, неспокойное время перестройки сумму денег, чтобы я мог приобрести себе подержанную « Украину» 1967г. Инструмент мне настроил в то время неплохой настройщик в нашем городе, но как Вы понимаете он менее чем через год расстроился, и я вынужден был как то выходить из сложившейся ситуации. Денег на настройку на было, а зачёты по гармонии и теории музыки, а также фортепиано нужно было сдавать. Отец по большому блату изготовил мне конусный четырёхгранный ключ, и я стал практиковать на собственном пианино, абсолютно не зная основ настройки и темперации. Сейчас мне приятно и трепетно вспоминать те первые, но всё же, осмысленные шаги. Читая и поглощая в безмерных количествах литературу по музыкальной теории, я уяснил для себя, что есть звук и как его можно делить. Ни будь этой практики, думаю, что я никогда бы не понял и не смог бы настраивать инструменты. Надо так же отметить, что по причине моей провинциальности, я даже и не подозревал, что классический настроечный ключ совсем другой. Итак, постепенно запасаясь теоретическим и практическим багажом знания, я, практикуя на своей «Украине», неожиданно стал получать заказы. Главным откровением для меня стали слова одного преподавателя, имеющего за плечами Ленинградскую консерваторию, когда он отметил, что такой правильной и грамотной темперации он даже не смог бы себе вообразить на советском пианино. Это я потом уже для себя выяснил, что он имел ввиду, говоря, и посмеиваясь, что « Бах был бы рад».
Теперь по существу вопроса я должен заявить следующее,
никому и никаким образом не навязываю своего «неправильного метода настройки», потому, что как было сказано раньше «всё моё творчество есть продукт вынужденных обстоятельств», однако я считаю, что подобный метод имеет место быть и вот почему:
1. Одно из принципиальных преимуществ работы 4х гранным конусным ключом это очень трудное его вращение и подгонка нужного тона, таким образом, присутствует особая концентрация слуха настройщика и музыкального анализа искомого звука. В противном случае настройщик быстро утомится и не настроит правильных нот даже в хорах
2. При работе ключом мы невольно сохраняем ресурс посадочного места колка. Состояние колкового механизма – это « тело и душа фортепиано». Чем меньше перемещается колок в вербильбанке, тем больше остаточный ресурс пианино, и как следствие продолжительнее с точки зрения темперации «правильный звук». Я заметил, что настроенный мной инструмент, особенно импортного производства, до 5-7 лет не расстраивается!
3. Колки «не зализываются». Восьмигранный ключ, хотим мы это принимать или нет, всё равно, раз за разом срабатывает грани колка. А это ущерб колку.
4. Когда я работаю без заглушек, то без всяких условностей и самое главное, не отвлекаясь на перемещение искомых интервалов всего инструмента способен, экономя время и ресурс колка, слышать ВЕСЬ спектр гармонии и интервалики, как в отдельных секторах, так и в аккордовом изложении и подобно русскому гусляру.
5. Единственное и принципиальное неудобство, данного метода, его продолжительность. А, именно я настраиваю обычно более 5 часов. Однако неудобства настройщика не в счёт.
С уважением, ко всем участникам форума, Максим
In GOD WE TRuST
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1769740 - 10/13/11 04:47 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Bojan Babic]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Bojan Babic
[quote=Johnkie]
like the revolutionary discover of the cardboard shims.

You may laugh and cry simultaneously, but truth in that that idea with paperboard not new, but single correct. Shim cardboard provides 100% stability pin in pinblook
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1769769 - 10/13/11 07:29 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Thinking about the extension on Max’s tool, I am reminded of the extension used for tuning the high treble on grands so that the hammer clears the case. There isn’t that much difference. Flagpoling is flagpoling. But the direction of the flagpoling can work for or against you. And even though a T-handle can remove all flagpoling, it does nothing for compensating for the spring from twisting the pin. However, selective flagpoling can compensate for the spring from twisting the pin. Yes, there is the residual torque and the rendering of the string to deal with also. But there is a specific point I want to make.

Although Max’s technique is painful for me to watch, it is still an opportunity to observe the physics involved. OK, the pin is being flagpoled an enormous amount in the flat direction. But at the same time the spring in the pin is in the sharp direction as is the residual torque and the string rendering. If there is enough bearing friction, it may not be necessary to ease the pin back CCW for stability. Unfortunately, I don’t think Max quite has things balanced that well.

Going back to the high treble on grands, I sometimes find one where putting the hammer at around 10 o’clock in the left hand works well. This is a similar position as Max’s, but without the extension which makes a huge difference.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1769770 - 10/13/11 07:29 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
There is no right way or wrong way of doing things, I guess. Anyone can use any methods, correct or not; any tools, correct or not. Results can be bad or good; it's all good.

Quote:
Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.


No, the statement is correct; let me rephrase it to make it clearer. The T lever does not give enough leverage to actually turn the pin, resulting in twisting and bending rather than turning. That leads to unstable tunings.

There is] nothing wrong with sharing your techniques, but promoting and supporting them if the techniques are wrong and can damage a piano, or if they lead to poor results is simply wrong. That may not be politically incorrect, but truth seldom is.

There seems to be an underlying sentiment with some here that whatever methods one uses are ok. It went so far as the Kawai thread, where a tech muscled plate bolts so hard that he sheared the heads off them, and some thing there's nothing wrong with the tech and everything wrong with the piano!

If advocating the use of proper tools and methods makes me the bad guy, so be it. New, innovative methods are one thing; makeshift methods and tools are quite another.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1769771 - 10/13/11 07:32 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Loren:

Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?


Jeff, my post is pretty easy to read; you know what I'm saying.


Yes I do know what you are saying, but I don't think you do. Believe it or not, you are saying the customer is not always right. That is the point I am trying to make. That attitude is a good way to not have a customer.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1769780 - 10/13/11 07:45 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Loren:

Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?


Jeff, my post is pretty easy to read; you know what I'm saying.


Yes I do know what you are saying, but I don't think you do. Believe it or not, you are saying the customer is not always right. That is the point I am trying to make. That attitude is a good way to not have a customer.


Nope, you don't understand at all. In the interest of avoiding "cronyism," (as though somehow educating someone on proper techniques is that), you would allow someone who does substandard work to be out vandalizing pianos. Are you implying that a customer is "right" when he/she, not knowing better, calls a quack for service? Because if you are, that's actually laughable.

This is not the first time you attempt to twist things, Jeff, and both you and I know it won't be the last. Protecting an incompetent tech over the people whose pianos he damages is the very cronyism you claim to be against. Attempting to frame that as "protecting customers from themselves" or as the customer "not always being right" is both weak and funny at the same time.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1769789 - 10/13/11 07:56 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Loren:

Let's say Max was in the next town over from you. How would you handle the situation?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1769792 - 10/13/11 07:59 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: UnrightTooner]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Loren:

Let's say Max was in the next town over from you. How would you handle the situation?


It's not clear?
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1769799 - 10/13/11 08:29 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Loren:

Let's say Max was in the next town over from you. How would you handle the situation?


It's not clear?


Why are you answering a question with a question?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1769802 - 10/13/11 08:32 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
You mean like you just did? smile

Because you already admittedly know the answers. And because by this stage of the thread, if you don't know, you still won't know after I explain it to you.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1769823 - 10/13/11 09:32 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Loren D]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4940
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: Loren D
You mean like you just did? smile

Because you already admittedly know the answers. And because by this stage of the thread, if you don't know, you still won't know after I explain it to you.


If you think that lets you off the hook, you are ignorantly smug.

There's one detail I haven't figured out. When we storm the castle to destroy the evil monster, do you go along or do you stay in your warm study and say "Oh, what a shame!" after rousing the rabble?
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1769928 - 10/13/11 01:22 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: London, England
Max, I would really appreciate a translation of your latest post that is in Cyrilic.

Loren. Thank you for your expertise on the use of the T hammer. With every word it becomes increasingly aparent that you have no skills or experiemce using one whatsoever.

If you had started with the words; "I would imagine" your whole diatribe might be taken a little more seriously.

As with any tool, it takes years of practice and experience to build the skills and develop the strength to use one. It doesn't take much strength to become adept at miniscule turning adjustments but does take a combination of delicacy and moderate strength. I am quite wiry in build and I have no trouble with it but have been using it for year, particularly in grand high trebles when it is inconvenient to raise the lid.

I'm going to use mine more as a result of this conversation. On approprite instruments, of course.

As for 'correct' and 'proper' tools, (what pedantic words) what could be more ideal than a tool that let's you separate out the various components of the mechanics of tuning in a way that a lever can't.

_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1770002 - 10/13/11 03:26 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Loren D Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 2546
Loc: PA
Good luck with the new pianos with monster pinblocks that are difficult to tune even with an impact hammer! It's your wrist, after all.
_________________________
DiGiorgi Piano Service (1984-2013)
http://www.digiorgipiano.com

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#1770025 - 10/13/11 04:26 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Loren D]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1711
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Good luck with the new pianos with monster pinblocks that are difficult to tune even with an impact hammer! It's your wrist, after all.


Of course, didn't I just get thru telling you that there are limits only a couple of posts back?

Please don't resort to these silly transparent arguing techniques to obfuscate the issue. It's an adolescent trick. You simply did not know what you were talking about.

It is quite possible that the lever was introduced to deal with very tight pinblocks. When were laminated pinblocks first introduced? I simply don't know so I won't write about things I don't know.

I am going to a meeting in a few days and several international piano historians will be present. I'll ask them.

I find history fascinating, don't you? Particularly now that a lot of it is in my lifetime.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1770124 - 10/13/11 09:18 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1723
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Translation:

Dear Eugene, moved to tears ensuing controversy around the theme: "Set up with the mediator." Frankly, he did not expect from our international forum such broad, and the most important moments of constructive discussion. Many thanks to all equipment that gave flattering assessment to me. Allow Eugene to ask you, once again extend a helping hand with a request to transfer my lines to be understood my position. Only you, as a practitioner, able to convey to the world's hopes and my personal experience. I will start with a lyric sheet, so that people can understand why Maxim does "everything topsy-turvy." I started using the Internet recently, less than 2 years ago because of my poverty. When I saw the clips on the network, as some tuners tuned, I will not deny, was surprised and even dismayed, by the methods and approaches that they apply in matters of temperament and technique work with the key. This does not mean that they are doing wrong, and only I know, "how to tune a piano." I was surprised by the techniques of working key, and it was very abrupt and ill-rotation, leading to an overestimation of the desired tone, and then released. You probably Eugene know what I mean? I think you like the practice of wizards, who worked in the Union, is well known that the splitting in the Soviet instruments are often installed in a traffic jam or verbilbanka window seat tube (frame testaceous species) is not centered. And this practice is not acceptable. Motion for setting up "Belarus" and "Toccata" is akin to the work field engineer in a minefield. Here, every movement must first be analyzed in terms of physics and the philosophy of the doctor "do no harm", otherwise it will not have that system, and even its approximate similarity, and then to smoothly maintain pressure throughout the arm, ignoring the ratchet key, attaching a clenched fist in base key. I sometimes, sorry for some indiscretion, "pulled from the Light", another Soviet model of piano and genuinely happy with the customer for an instrument which was made a "cross". How I came to the fact that I work with homemade, but very high quality keys, from the standpoint of physics? Again has to do digress. When I was very young and studied at the Ural State Music School, the program was necessary to study the subject of a "common piano," but I'm a populist (accordionist), then the parents have sacrificed in fact borrowed time adjustment amount of money so I could buy a second hand " Ukraine "in 1967. I set up the instrument at that time a good tuner in our city, but as you understand it less than a year, was upset, and I had a way out of this situation. Money for the setting to it, and tests on harmony and music theory, piano and had to surrender. His father made the big cronyism I tapered four-sided key, and I began to practice on your own piano, absolutely not knowing the basics of configuring and temperament. Now, I am pleased and anxious to remember those first, but nevertheless, meaningful steps. By reading and absorbing immense quantities in the literature on music theory, I understand for ourselves what is the sound and how it can divide. Nor whether this practice, I think I would have never understood and could not tune up. It should also be noted that because of my provincialism, I had no idea that the classical tuning key is different. So, gradually stocking the theoretical and practical knowledge of luggage, I'm practicing on his "Ukraine", suddenly began to receive orders. The main revelation for me were the words of one teacher who has behind him the Leningrad Conservatory, where he noted that such a proper and correct temperament, he could not even imagine the Soviet piano. This I then found out for myself what he meant when he said, and chuckled that "Bach would be pleased."
Now, on the merits, I must state the following,
anyone and in no way impose its "improper methods for setting", because as we said earlier, "All my work is the product of a coercive environment," but I believe that this method is the place to be and here's why:
1. One of the principal advantages of the 4 sided taper key is very difficult to rotate and fit the right tone, so there is a particular concentration of the hearing tuner and musical analysis of the desired sound. Otherwise, the tune quickly weary, and not set up correctly notes, even in the choir
2. When working key, we can not help save the life seat chopping. Pegs state mechanism - a "body and soul of the piano." The fewer moves in verbilbanke pin, the greater the residual life of a piano, and as a consequence of the longer terms of temperament, "the right sound." I noticed that I tuned instrument, especially imported, up to 5-7 years do not worry!
3. Tuners not "licking." The octagonal key, whether we like it or not take, anyway, over and over again triggered the verge of splitting. This damage pins.
4. When I work without stubs, then without any conditionality, and most importantly, staying focused on moving the desired intervals, the entire instrument is able to save time and resource chopping, to hear the full range of harmony and intervaliki, both in individual sectors, and in the presentation of chords and like the Russian guslar.
5. The only and fundamental disadvantage of this method, its duration. And, it is usually I set more than 5 hours. However, the inconvenience tuner does not count.
With respect to all participants of the forum, Maxim

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#1770227 - 10/14/11 01:12 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
pianosxxi Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 217
Loc: Southern California
Max,

Thank you for sharing your story. Very inspiring. Looks like you are on the right path. It's always good to know that someone is always looking for different ways to solve a problem or to perfect their skill. Wish you all the best.

As we already see, many techs (even in U.S., thumb to rxd) use T shape to tune pianos, I personally use it on hapsichords and harps. Unfortunately I cannot use it on the piano, due to lack of strength in my wrist. I believe that T shape tuning hammer is less damaging for piano compared to L shape. All in all, good piano techs can implement both when necessary.


Edited by pianosxxi (10/14/11 01:13 AM)
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#1770240 - 10/14/11 01:50 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: pianosxxi]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pianosxxi
All in all, good piano techs can implement both when necessary.

Thank you Gene for good words . Indiscribable pleased that method of T shape tuning hammer use in USA. For me big discovery that You personally use for harp and hapsichords
Искренне Ваш Максим
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1770245 - 10/14/11 02:05 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Dear Sirs (UnrightToone, rxd, pianosxxi, DoelKees, pianolive, accordeur, rysowers) Thank You for support and understanding to importance of the subject. You have indicated much positive moments. I express feeling of the deep moral satisfaction for your messages
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1770246 - 10/14/11 02:08 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
DoelKees спасибо за качественный и весьма понятный перевод
С уважением maxim_tuner (Maximillyan)
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1770249 - 10/14/11 02:21 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1527
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Loren D
Good luck with the new pianos with monster pinblocks that are difficult to tune even with an impact hammer! It's your wrist, after all.

I am going to a meeting in a few days and several international piano historians will be present. I'll ask them.

The Dear piano tec. forgive that film in russian only. Be can You will useful see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j-2cvK8hKA
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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