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#1776634 - 10/24/11 11:22 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.Kees

If I understood Kees correctly, we need a plectrum to pluck at the same time 2 or 3 strings. And find the differents between its. That's the theory. The human ear can discern and eliminate inaccuracies, if this sounds small delay
maxim_tuner_bodger
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#1776706 - 10/25/11 02:33 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: DoelKees]
JohnSprung Offline
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Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1047
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.


True, but out of phase at the same frequency causes cancellation and reduces the sound output. Probably not important, though, since it's beats you're listening for.

The cause of beats is that a slight difference in frequencies makes them go back and forth between adding and cancellation.
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#1776757 - 10/25/11 07:23 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: DoelKees]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.

Kees


True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though separately they are not quite at the same frequency. There is a "tsiinnggg" sound at the attack that can be heard. And I have heard some recordings where, I believe, the unisons were tuned to just barely couple. It can make the melody really stand out.

This can be observed when a hammer is not well mated to the strings. It is much harder, or impossible, to get a good unison and it will go out quicker. This coupling is also why false beats can often be reduced or eliminated with careful unison tuning. That is what I believe, anyway.

[Edit:] This may also be why unisons are not tuned with ETDs. I don't know how a machine could recognise and guide the tuning of coupled strings.


Edited by UnrightTooner (10/25/11 07:26 AM)
_________________________
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Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1776848 - 10/25/11 11:17 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?

This is also the reason I check for noisy note termination(dampers) with the shift pedal down. If they're gonna b noisy at all, that's when they're at their most noticeable.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1776866 - 10/25/11 11:48 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: UnrightTooner]
pianolive Online   content
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Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Europe
"True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency"

But if strings have false beats, you often tune the three strings at different freq. to get the chore beatless.

In older Steinway O grands the speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at the break, can differ quite much from 6 - 11 mm in one chore. If those strings are tuned at the same freq. the do beat terrible. They must be tuned at different freq, which we automatically do when tuning aurally. When checked with a program it becomes clear that they are at different freq. but beatless together.
I guess it is the same in other instruments too.

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#1776867 - 10/25/11 11:50 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: UnrightTooner]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.

Kees


True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though separately they are not quite at the same frequency.


This could also be used as an argument for tuning with a plectrum. If the strings are not at the exact same frequency but you rely on the coupling to pull them in tune, a small change in tension will take them out of the coupling range and you'll have an off unison.

However if you tuned them more accurately to the same freq. by plucking them, the unison would be even better with the hammer due to the string coupling, and more stable (as you have more "wiggling room").

Finally when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading to higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes a more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.

I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2) if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the "best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually sounds with the hammer.

Kees

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#1776899 - 10/25/11 12:49 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Doel:

I always enjoy your objective outlook. Truly!

I have zero ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it would either be recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.

And I am not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher the partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH the difference will be greater with higher partials.
_________________________
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Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1776908 - 10/25/11 01:02 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[quote=UnrightTooner]For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.Kees

Finally when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading to higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes a more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.

I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2) if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the "best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually sounds with the hammer.Kees

BRAVO, Kees!
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#1776912 - 10/25/11 01:05 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: pianolive]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: pianolive
the speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at the break, can differ quite much from 6 - 11 mm in one chore. If those strings are tuned at the same freq. the do beat terrible. They must be tuned at different freq, which we automatically do when tuning aurally.

think that's debatable. I do not have such a practice
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#1776916 - 10/25/11 01:09 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?

that article about?
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#1776931 - 10/25/11 01:34 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?

that article about?


About coupling of strings and behaviour of 3rd string through the bridge when only 2 of 3 Strings Is struck, As in operating the shift(left) pedal in a grand.

I think I saw it copied on the web. Does anybody have a link?
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1776947 - 10/25/11 01:57 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
I cannot find the Scientific American article on the web, but here is a link that mentions it in regards to the coupling of strings:

http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR97/BAPSTSS97/abs/S1010002.html
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1776948 - 10/25/11 02:01 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Thank,Jeff Deutschle
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A=440
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#1776949 - 10/25/11 02:05 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
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Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ugh,

Now I remember how this subject is treated in an ugly way:

http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/weinreic.html
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1776957 - 10/25/11 02:29 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1776984 - 10/25/11 03:40 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: UnrightTooner]
DoelKees Offline
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Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
I have zero ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it would either be recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.

OK, but we discuss plucking here, not ETD's. I agree with you, it's just a matter of knowing why.
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

And I am not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher the partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH the difference will be greater with higher partials.

True.

Kees

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#1777219 - 10/25/11 10:17 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1540
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
I tried tuning a couple of unisons today with the plucking method. Once I get the fast beats out by plucking close to the termination (i.e., the higher harmonics rapid beats are now too slow to detect), the unison is perfect when played with hammer. When tuning the same unison with the hammer, after getting it aurally equally perfect I could then detect a small beat in the higher harmonics when plucking. When correcting this using plucking and going back to using the hammer it sounded the same. But I think it should theoretically then be more stable.

I cherry picked the unisons for well matched strings. When I tried on a unison with some problems, the resulting unison from plucking depended on where I'd pluck and never sounded as good as when I tuned with the hammer (the piano hammer, not the tuning hammer), for obvious reasons.

I think this is all as expected, and I'm happy now that I understand what's going on.

It seems with this plucking technique you should be prepared to spend 6 hours on a tuning, as it will not work on less than perfectly matched strings, so you have to go through the plucking stage, then strike with the hammers, decide which strings have a problem etc.

A somewhat related factoid: I play a lot with santur players. A santur (also called dulcimer) is like a piano without action lying on the table and you hit the strings (3 per unison) with mallets you hold in your hand. Every santur player I know tunes by plucking the strings. It need to be (and is by the pro's) tuned about every 15 mins.

Kees

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#1777270 - 10/26/11 12:38 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ


Thank you, Max for this video. It shows how well that you are adding our suggestions to your own technique. It looks as though that piano has pins just a little too tight to turn with one hand. You have stopped flagpoling the pin and your unisons are much cleaner.

I noticed you turn the pin some times with the tool in L shape (not T) with no flagpoling that as a good skill to have and will enable you to turn the pin and tune finer without changing tools or using both hands. This is just a suggestion that may help you todevelop a more efficient technique with the tools you have.

I am impressed by how you can estimate quite accurately how much to turn the pin with both hands and no notes sounding. With this skill, it is possible for you to get the string close to in tune and then refine the tuning with one hand while playing the note from the key with the other.

You can stop the strings that you don't need to hear with wedges made from soft material like felt or rubber so that you only have two strings sounding at one time. You saw this in the Japanese video.
You will find this quicker because plucking the strings takes more time and would take 3 hands to do efficiently. That is the reason I don't take time to pluck strings.

There is a discussion in this thread that points out some of the possible advantages of plucking. I will certainly try it next time I tune a piano and have time.

Thank you for making us all think about what we are doing.

Is that your family in the background? They look very happy.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#1777360 - 10/26/11 08:09 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4789
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Max:

You will get many different perspectives from us. Mine is just one of many.

I do not see the flagpoling by itself being a problem to tuning. I see the EFFECTS of flagpoling on the PITCH, while the flagpoling is occurring, as the problem. There are problems with flagpoling that are separate from tuning, though.

If you were tuning in the typical way, the pitch change due to flagpoling would be a problem. The typical way is to play the note and tune one untuned string to other tuned strings. (Mutes are needed to do this.) While the note is being played, the pin is turned until the interval between the notes is correct. (The interval may be a unison, octave, fifth, etc.)

If there is a large amount of flagpoling in the direction of the string, then when the tuning hammer is no longer being turned, the pitch will change. The usual way to deal with flagpoling is to put the tuning hammer in line with the string. Then the flagpoling will not affect the pitch because the flagpoling is in the direction of across the string, not in line with the string.

Since you are plucking a string, turning the pin, and then checking the result, I do not see the flagpoling as a problem in tuning. The effect of flagpoling on the change of pitch no longer exists when the note is checked. The real problem is tuning mostly by listening to pitch, rather than by listening to intervals. Listening to intervals is the typical way to tune.

However, there is problem with flagpoling that has nothing to do with tuning. Flagpoling puts sideways pressure on the hole in the pinblock. It is good that you are now using a technique that reduces this flagpoling. A typical tuning hammer reduces flagpoling by having the head of the hammer closer to the pin. Maybe you can modify one of your tools to work more like a typical tuning hammer. Then you could try tuning intervals rather than by mostly listening to separate pitches. You will need mutes to do this. A wedge of rubber would be like a typical mute.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

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#1777966 - 10/27/11 03:00 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
When tuning the same unison with the hammer, after getting it aurally equally perfect I could then detect a small beat in the higher harmonics when plucking. When correcting this using plucking and going back to using the hammer it sounded the same. But I think it should theoretically then be more stable. I think this is all as expected, and I'm happy now that I understand what's going on.

Dear Kees, you really understand correctly that the harmonic sounds are different from each other. This is not just a theory, but practice. I first create a sound pick, and then check the usual playback using the keyboard. So that I created the sound in practice no different from the sound which was created by mute way. I am glad to know that you are actively practicing the method of plucking. There is one huge disadvantage - a lot of time spent on tuning sound and it analysis. However, this is offset by careful attitude to the mechanisms; (pin- pin’s hole- pinblock). Stability and durability of this method is undeniable
Respect you from maxim_tuner_bodger
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1777969 - 10/27/11 03:28 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: UnrightTooner]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner


Since you are plucking a string, turning the pin, and then checking the result, I do not see the flagpoling as a problem in tuning. The effect of flagpoling on the change of pitch no longer exists when the note is checked. The real problem is tuning mostly by listening to pitch, rather than by listening to intervals. Listening to intervals is the typical way to tune.
Maybe you can modify one of your tools to work more like a typical tuning hammer. Then you could try tuning intervals rather than by mostly listening to separate pitches. You will need mutes to do this. A wedge of rubber would be like a typical mute.

Dear Jeff, the entire analysis of my way tuning and most importantly all your recommendations are correct and I think that they will help me in my job. I understood you and I be sure to make SUCH hammer!
Regards maxim_tuner_bodger
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1777984 - 10/27/11 04:18 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ


Thank you, Max for this video. It shows how well that you are adding our suggestions to your own technique. It looks as though that piano has pins just a little too tight to turn with one hand. You have stopped flagpoling the pin and your unisons are much cleaner.
THANKS

I noticed you turn the pin some times with the tool in L shape (not T) with no flagpoling that as a good skill to have and will enable you to turn the pin and tune finer without changing tools or using both hands. This is just a suggestion that may help you todevelop a more efficient technique with the tools you have.

I am impressed by how you can estimate quite accurately how much to turn the pin with both hands and no notes sounding. With this skill, it is possible for you to get the string close to in tune and then refine the tuning with one hand while playing the note from the key with the other.

You can stop the strings that you don't need to hear with wedges made from soft material like felt or rubber so that you only have two strings sounding at one time. You saw this in the Japanese video.
You will find this quicker because plucking the strings takes more time and would take 3 hands to do efficiently. That is the reason I don't take time to pluck strings.

There is a discussion in this thread that points out some of the possible advantages of plucking. I will certainly try it next time I tune a piano and have time.

Thank you for making us all think about what we are doing.

Is that your family in the background? They look very happy.

The technique of L and T, I intentionally included to show the versatility of my key. I'm can work both left and right hand the same way, for me it makes no difference.

My extensive experience allows me to turning the pin originally without sound. When I find sharp tone and I am fix it's.

Your wishes with wedges (Japanese video) are taken into account.

If you look closely, in my various video: here different people, women and children. I am not a polygamist, it's my customers. They are happy that I came. Their desire is to get as a result of my visit, well-tuned up piano
sincerely yours maxim_tuner_bodger
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1778026 - 10/27/11 08:33 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
I can see how string tunes differently by plucking. Whenever I completely revoice a piano it seems to want to tune slightly differently than before any changes.

I never do retune, not for any artistic reasons but because the changes are so slight as to not warrant it. Or am I merely justifying my laziness? I also have a taste for benign neglect.

Anyway, when we get to fine tuning it might by an issue and it might not.

I'm about to listen to some Beethoven, Schumann & Liszt on a 1914 Chapell 9' grand that I just tuned with a T hammer. The pianists love it. It had been sounding a little 'quaint' here and there at higher dynamic levels, depending on who was playing it. Some back of the hammer needling has taken all that away and it is an amazing piano now.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1778081 - 10/27/11 10:18 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
I'm about to listen to some Beethoven, Schumann & Liszt on a 1914 Chapell 9' grand that I just tuned with a T hammer. The pianists love it. It had been sounding a little 'quaint' here and there at higher dynamic levels, depending on who was playing it. Some back of the hammer needling has taken all that away and it is an amazing piano now.

Dear rxd, I am Very pleased! I'd love to hear and see a little piece of video. Discussion pianists about this a piano and tuning now, if possible.
sincerely yours,maxim_tuner_bodger
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#1778097 - 10/27/11 10:39 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: rxd]
pianolive Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 321
Loc: Europe
Please correct me if I misunderstand, but are you guys talking about tuning pianos by plucking the strings?
First set temp and then tune the rest of the instrument by plucking?

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#1778104 - 10/27/11 11:04 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: pianolive]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1680
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: pianolive
Please correct me if I misunderstand, but are you guys talking about tuning pianos by plucking the strings?
First set temp and then tune the rest of the instrument by plucking?


Yes, but go back to the beginning of this thread to see how it morphed that way.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#1778195 - 10/27/11 01:43 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: rxd]
Dan Casdorph Offline
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Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 351
Loc: Morgantown, West Virginia
Maximillyan:

How long does it take you to tune a piano?

Dan
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#1778211 - 10/27/11 02:18 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Dan Casdorph]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1429
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long does it take you to tune a piano

Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h
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#1778220 - 10/27/11 02:38 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Offline
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Posts: 20766
Loc: Oakland
I schedule between one and two hours for most tunings.
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Semipro Tech

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#1778406 - 10/27/11 09:30 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Monaco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 387
Loc: GA
I'm a beginner and it takes me less than 2 hours to tune, plus a little for the set up, adjustments, inspection etc.
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Ben Ereddia
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