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#1778474 - 10/27/11 11:41 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Monaco]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1806
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Monaco
I'm a beginner and it takes me less than 2 hours to tune,

"No bad cats. There are cooks who do not know how cook it's". Chinese folk wisdom

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#1778493 - 10/28/11 12:23 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 2152
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long does it take you to tune a piano

Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h

It took me about 4 mins to tune a single 3 string unison with the plucking method. Times 88 that's about the time you mention, taking into accounts not all notes have 3 strings but you also have to set a temperament.

Using either a muting strip or rubber dampers you can cut this time down to 1-2 hrs.

How do you set the temperament (make sure all intervals are equal)?

Kees

Kees

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#1778554 - 10/28/11 02:49 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Kees,

You can see in the videos that Max's "temperament" (if one can call it that?!) is based on 4ths, 5ths and octaves, using major triads as auxiliary notes (marked in red below).

e.g.
A4 --> E4 (playing C#4,E4,A4)
A4 --> D5 (playing F#4,A4,D5)
D5 --> D4 (octave, or playing D major)
D4 --> G4 (playing B3,D4,G4)

etc. etc.

My problem in calling this a "temperament" is that these auxiliary notes are not even tuned yet! Given this, I'm surprised at some of the results he does get.

Monaco,

Not that I'm keen on "fast and furious", but do you perhaps have a recording of one of your tunings that you did in less than two hours? I'm a beginner too, and although I might manage a pitch raise in less than two hours, a fine tuning definitely takes me longer.
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1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
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#1778666 - 10/28/11 09:32 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Mark R.]
Dan Casdorph Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 399
Loc: Morgantown, West Virginia
The reason I asked about time is because there was once a beginning tuner here who I saw doing a floor tuning in a store. I stood back and watched/listened for a few minutes and I found his methods curious.

He played the key and used mutes to tune using a traditional tuning lever. However, he did not play while he was tuning the string.He tuned silently. He would work his tuning lever, then play the note and listen. If the note/unison was off, he would either raise or lower the string silently, then play the note. He would then decide whether to raise or lower the pitch depending on whether the beats were getting better or worse.

I watched for about 10 minutes in total confusion as he struggled to tune a couple of unisons in the treble.

He never was able to get his tuning time under 4-5 hours and he quit tuning.
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#1778741 - 10/28/11 12:06 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Mark R.]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1806
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Kees,

You can see in the videos that Max's "temperament" (if one can call it that?!) is based on 4ths, 5ths and octaves, using major triads as auxiliary notes (marked in red below).

e.g.
A4 --> E4 (playing C#4,E4,A4)
A4 --> D5 (playing F#4,A4,D5)
D5 --> D4 (octave, or playing D major)
D4 --> G4 (playing B3,D4,G4)

Dear Mark I did not set to show in your videos are absolutely accurate (final) fixation of sounds. Customers shoot me in the process of temperament. With regard to major triads you just said. This is just search sound one of my original methods . Now I shall looking for a broken piano to the online mode to configure it for an extended period of time

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#1778745 - 10/28/11 12:16 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1806
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long does it take you to tune a piano

Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h
you can cut this time down to 1-2 hrs.How do you set the temperament (make sure all intervals are equal)?Kees

Thanks Kees,but I think the rush is not necessary, to avoid errors and the quality was not affected

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#1778748 - 10/28/11 12:21 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24153
Loc: Oakland
It is not necessarily the case that taking more time results in better tuning. Usually those who take longer get the worst results.

For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break. If I run over, the audience has to wait until I finish. Most of the time, the piano is fairly well in tune beforehand, but I never can tell how the weather has affected the piano until I start tuning.
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#1778751 - 10/28/11 12:25 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
dancarney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/06/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
I can 'chip' a piano in around 50/55 mins, which can then be fine tuned in around 30 mins, give or take.

It takes practise, however. I hope I can improve on the above time, just for kicks.

Kees, you'll be able to improve your time quite easily by practising.

I don't intend to craft a career from chipping, but it is a fairly efficient way of raising/levelling pitch.
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#1778757 - 10/28/11 12:36 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: BDB]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2413
Originally Posted By: BDB


For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break.


One hour is quite standard for a concert tuning.

How old are these concert pianos that are breaking strings?

Or are you an unusually heavy handed tuner?
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.



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#1778770 - 10/28/11 12:50 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Monaco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 387
Loc: GA
Mark,
Do you use an ETD?
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Ben Ereddia
Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech

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#1778771 - 10/28/11 12:50 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24153
Loc: Oakland
The newest piano is 5 years old. I am not the only one who breaks strings on it. That is about par for heavily used concert pianos.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1778784 - 10/28/11 01:02 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: rXd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1806
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: BDB


For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break.

an unusually heavy handed tuner?

I am HARD tuner

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#1778795 - 10/28/11 01:14 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Monaco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 387
Loc: GA
Does tuning with a plectrum provide enough inertia to the string to allow it to equalize over it's pressure points? I doubt it. Unless you pluck the HECK out of it, then maybe.

What makes one a heavy handed tuner? The strength of his blows or the amount that one raises pitch above the desired frequency? Is it at all likely that you could brake a string by smacking the key? My initial thought is that if there is such a thing as a heavy handed tuner it must be the latter.
_________________________
Ben Ereddia
Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech

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#1778812 - 10/28/11 01:41 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Monaco]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1806
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: Monaco
if there is such a thing as a heavy handed tuner it must be the latter.

Hard fixation of pin as soon as possible, without re-return. But in practice I can not boast that it is happening at once and not have to go back to adjust the sound

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#1778813 - 10/28/11 01:42 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24153
Loc: Oakland
Well, I do not know about braking a string by smacking the key, but I certainly can break a string that way. I am pleased that in my career, I have broken a lot more strings than the artists have.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1778845 - 10/28/11 02:20 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Monaco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 387
Loc: GA
And these strings broke while sounding the note or turning the pin?
_________________________
Ben Ereddia
Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech

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#1778883 - 10/28/11 03:07 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: BDB]
JohnSprung Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 3214
Loc: Reseda, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
The newest piano is 5 years old. I am not the only one who breaks strings on it. That is about par for heavily used concert pianos.


Do you keep a supply of the wrapped bass strings? Or is it mostly the plain wire ones that break?
_________________________
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I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body.
Then I realized who was telling me this.

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
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#1778901 - 10/28/11 03:37 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24153
Loc: Oakland
It is mostly the plain wire strings in the top section that break. Universal strings are not long enough for more than 7' grands, so I am glad that they do not break so often.

They break when I am sounding the note, always at the capo bar. That is where the fatigue is.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1778944 - 10/28/11 04:24 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: BDB]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2413
Originally Posted By: BDB
Well, I do not know about braking a string by smacking the key, but I certainly can break a string that way. I am pleased that in my career, I have broken a lot more strings than the artists have.


I am entertaining the distinct possibility that you are kidding us.

You have given us so many intelligent insights, I find it hard to believe that you would fall into this trap.
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.



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#1778976 - 10/28/11 05:30 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24153
Loc: Oakland
It is better to break a string before the show than to have it break in the middle of the show.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1779017 - 10/28/11 06:43 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: BDB]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2413
Originally Posted By: BDB
It is better to break a string before the show than to have it break in the middle of the show.


is it?
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.



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#1779033 - 10/28/11 07:05 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24153
Loc: Oakland
From the audience's point of view, certainly. Especially if there is nobody there to fix it. I am tuning and leaving for tonight's show.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#1779085 - 10/28/11 08:33 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: BDB]
rXd Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 2413
Originally Posted By: BDB
From the audience's point of view, certainly. Especially if there is nobody there to fix it. I am tuning and leaving for tonight's show.


It's just that I have some pianos whose stringing is a bit old for concert work plus some really vulgar "Artists" and I don't have that problem. I don't break strings, nor do they.

Perhaps it's being close to the Bay

How do you deal with unstable new strings if you're not there?
_________________________
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.



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#1779191 - 10/29/11 01:20 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 24153
Loc: Oakland
Most of the pianos where I am the sole tuner do not have problems with breaking strings. One of them, the one I am tuning Wednesday, did, but it seems to have stabilized in recent years and does not break them as much. But none of them get as much playing as the concert reserve instruments, which are played often and hard. The person in charge of the pianos at Stanford University, where I have never tuned, told me that they have their concert grands restrung every 10 years.

Most of the instability of new strings comes from installing them incorrectly. If everything is tightened up at installation, the only thing left is stretching, and that is slow enough that it will not be noticeable for many hours, particularly since these are very high notes.
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Semipro Tech

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#1779193 - 10/29/11 01:23 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
DoelKees Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 2152
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Thanks Kees,but I think the rush is not necessary, to avoid errors and the quality was not affected

The point is you can get the same results in 1/4 of the time.

Regarding the video you posted, you tuned the piano 30 cents flat (relative to A=440). Can you explain why you did that?

Cheers,
Kees

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#1779207 - 10/29/11 02:31 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: DoelKees]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1806
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[quote=Maximillyan]
Regarding the video you posted, you tuned the piano 30 cents flat (relative to A=440). Can you explain why you did that?
Cheers,
Kees

Dear Kees , are you sure you correctly identified the general system the piano on my video. Why so? I usually have settings piano's practice where resources are partially or completely exhausted itself. In the video, "Belarus" in 1959. Its no one ever tuning up. After removing the dust and removing small defects the hammer's mechanism, I checked the digital tuning system. I have found that 75% below the standard sounds more than a semitone. (In the beginning of the video I play a 4-octave section). Some notes are all the same is true for near 30sen below. I decided to do temperament the basis of these sounds. I know that when picked up by building more halftones can break string. I am unable to buy new strings.Nobody it sale in our town. So, what I'm doing rather is technical routine operation, but the "art of resurrection from obscurity".
Sincerely,maxim_tuner_bodger


Edited by Maximillyan (10/29/11 02:32 AM)

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#1779436 - 10/29/11 03:55 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1806
Loc: KZ
Today I'm shot clip about T-bar. Sorry, I does not speak conversational English. I hope that the chronicle will be available in the understanding of the benefits Universal T-bar .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K125i_WBqw
Sincerely, maxim_tuner_bodger


Edited by Maximillyan (10/29/11 03:56 PM)

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#1780340 - 10/31/11 06:04 AM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Monaco]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Monaco
Mark,
Do you use an ETD?


Depends what for. I don't even own an ETD, but have borrowed a friend's chromatic tuner sometimes, to evaluate exactly how flat a piano is before and after a pitch raise. As a beginner, I'm still very careful with overpull. I rather pull up to A440 in several passes.

But my actual tuning is by ear only. The ETD was only for measuring "before and after", to learn about the effects of a pitch raise.

Why do you ask?


Edited by Mark R. (10/31/11 06:13 AM)
Edit Reason: changed typo "ETC" to "ETD"
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#1780650 - 10/31/11 04:57 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Monaco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 387
Loc: GA
Because an ETD will speed up your times tremendously, especially for pitch raises. Most (all?) good ETD's will calculate the amount of overpull needed so you only have to do one quick pass where you just get the note close. Then you are ready to do a final tuning on the next pass. I can easily do a pitch raise in 40 minutes, sometimes a little less. I have heard of people who can do it in 20.

I am sure that if I was to try to tune strictly by ear, as you do, my times would be much more in line with yours. On the other hand, if you use an ETD, I would bet that your times would be much more in line with min. Also, I can guarantee that my work, if not dead on, is very close to being correct (assuming I can set a pin and tune solid unisons - both of which are getting better all the time - one of the reasons I consider myself a "beginner").

If money is a serious consideration, as it was for me, I suggest Tunelabs. It's $300 and goes on (almost?) any iOS device. I purchased a used iTouch off ebay for $140. Total = $440 as opposed to some of the other options that can be as much as $1400. Plus, now I have an iTouch, which is nice.
_________________________
Ben Ereddia
Piano Teacher
Beginning Tech

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#1780665 - 10/31/11 05:05 PM Re: Tuning a piano with mediator [Re: Maximillyan]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2265
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Thanks, Ben.

Pin-setting and unisons are exactly what takes time for me - I'm not sure how much time an ETD would save me there.

In fact, I don't even know what "iOS" stands for... My mobile is for making calls and sending short messages - but I'll keep these things in mind.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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