Hello

I'm in the process of buying a new (probably used though) digital piano and since I consider it likely that I will venture into composing - more or less - at some point in time I just would like to make sure that the DP I buy is capable of connecting with a computer in a feasible way.

Is there anything I should be aware of in this context? Is there a special composer software?

Greetings,

Jesper

There is no "composing" software, in the sense that the software does not compose in itself!

YOU compose! (Keep this in mind for all your life (no idea how old you are).

You are looking into 3 different elements here, more or less...

1. Software to notate your music

If you want to create scores for others to read, or because this is the way you compose, then you need something like that.

There are cheap, expensive and even free alternative here, all of which can work out miracles (and some of the software is what the big publishers are using, so no secret recipe there).

Here's words to google out (no time right now for direct links, sorry):

Expensive with cheaper options

Finale makemusic
Sibelius Avid
NOTION

Free

musescore is free

2. Sequencer

While the above have rendering capabilities and will offer the option to create a recording from the score, in the professional world and the world of midi a sequencer does this job much better.

A sequencer is the host in which you will write all the music, add effects, instruments, change tempo, record your voice, etc...

Expensive

Logic
Digital Performer
Cubase
Nuendo
Sonar

Cheap

Reaper

Free

Audacity
Reaper* (it has a free, unlimited trial, but one should buy it really for 60$).

Finally

3. Virtual Instruments

If you use midi to connect your new DP in your computer, then this midi information will have NO sound information. This means that you can change the instrument into a violin, or a flute, or human voice (recorded). This is done, usually, for orchestral music with samples.

So you need a sampler, or a sample player, or some other method to give the midi information the necessary input on WHAT sounds it will use.

I can't list all the instruments that are available, but there are some packages that come in handy, because they are 'all in one'.

Expensive

VSL Orchetsral (Extremely expensive but complete)
EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Platinum/Gold
Kirk Hunter orchestra

Cheap

Garritan Personal Orchestra

for each instruments there are amazing alternatives, but if you are to gather a full orchestra and go instrument to instrument you would be looking to spend more than 10,000$ to begin with...

Especially for pianos there's a wealth of options available for the computer, all of which sound stunning

Ivory
Galaxy II
Garritan Steinway
Quantum Leap Pianos
Pianoteq
Truepiano

and I'm sure I'm missing a lot...

That's all.

For anything just post and me, or someone else, will be here to help out!

Nikolas

Good suggestions...OTOH, maybe you just need a video and some creativity...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f610_ELb8Fs&feature=related

As long as your DP has MIDI you will be able to connect to your computer. You might need a MIDI adapter although some keyboards have USB connectors and software that will let you directly connect.

There's a bit of science to connecting a DP MIDI output to an ordinary desktop computer (rather than a specialist workstation). Some people are lucky enough to have a plug-and-go experience, but others have difficulties and get discouraged. For example, I had no trouble at all getting my MIDI keyboard to operate the Linux version of Pianoteq, but I had to spend days tweaking the Windows version to get the latency down to a manageable level (and I'm still not entirely satisfied). And this is on exactly the same hardware.

But I don't really have much to add to what other people have posted. You're spoiled for choice where composing/arranging software is concerned. The only difficult question is whether you want to spend any money. If you're composing for personal satisfaction and education, you can get decent results without spending any money at all. If you want to make convincing full-orchestra renderings, you'll have to be prepared to dig deep.

I don't compose for a living, so Sibelius + Pianoteq are all I can justify spending money on. And, to be honest, I only got Sibelius because I needed it for a course I took some time back. Logic and LAS Strings are on my Christmas wishlist, but that's a lot of money to spend on what is, more or less, a hobby.

Side tracking a bit:

Kevin. LASS is STUNNING! I own it and love using it for any instance (of course I make my living by composing, so... :-/ )

And about your latency problem. I would imagine that it's a driver issue. Not sure what audio card you have, but perhaps it would help to put 'ASIO4ALL' (google it), in your computer, if you haven't already.

Linux and Windows have different drives (and especially the Windows Direct audio is AWFUL!). Perhaps it's worth a try?

And, btw, why not try reaper? Of course Logic seems like a logical (pun intended) choice, but reaper is also a very worthy software (with quite good plug-ins as well).

Yes -- I looked it up on your earlier recommendation. Sadly, I don't have $1000 burning a hole in my pocket, and even the 'lite' version is $300. There doesn't even seem to be any trial version, and it's a lot of money to spend (even if I had it) for something I can't be sure will work on my system.



Well, that was exactly what I had to do. Perhaps if I knew more about Windows I would understand why. I found instructions by googling, but no adequate explanation.

I'm a life-long Unix user, and I've always found anything to do with Windows incomprehensible. If there's ever a Linux version of Sibelius I will throw a party, because then I won't have to use Windows ever again.

Hello & thanks so much for replying.

@Nikolas: Thanks for outlining so many softwares and options. And not least for clarifying that I will be composing and not the software. I did realize that, though ;-)

I tried out a chorus demo earlier today from VSL orchestra and although it's probably very good (?) compared to other softwares it appeared to me that it was not really a human chorus. E.g. the ambience around the singers was less than authentic to my ears (I happen to have had an interest for very high-end audio earlier in my life and the experience of listening appears to remain).

About MIDI there's something I may not know which I hope one of you might help clarify: It seems to me that MIDI is a relatively old standard so how does it accommodate the improved key (and I'm thinking about the key information and not the subsequent intrinsic DP sound generation) sensitivity and nuance of a modern DP? Will MIDI transmit this information into the computer?

@kevinb: In the first round I'll most likely be into low price software since I need to find out if this "takes off" so to speak. Life has taught me that sometimes it's justified to buy the best, however, for me it's best to try out at first and then see what happens.

BTW I have a spare 1.5 GHz laptop with 1 GB RAM which is also very low noise so maybe I can install Linux on that one. Then all softwares will work?

Greetings,

Jesper

Jesper.

The chorus is one of the most difficult things to replicate with a computer. And the VSL chorus is not really doing a great job at that, but there are no other software and VI (Virtual Instruments) which really do a much better job.

About the MIDI you're asking... Yes, it most certainly is enough for current DPs... At some point technology may change to accommodate 'more', but, for example, right now 128 steps of how loud you hit a key are enough I think... (MIDI has 128 controllers, each one in 128 steps. You can imagine how much this is in terms of availability (cause in terms of size it's TINY)).

LINUX is not fully compatible with most pro software, unfortunately. There are a few choices, but Cubase, Finale, NOTION, Sibelius, Sonar, Logic, Digital Performer, Ableton live, Fruity Loops and other are off... Same goes for Kontakt I think and most sample engines (not sure about Best Engine though, but ARIA is also off). I do believe that Reaper is working fine in Linux (Kevin, can you confirm this?)

I think Linux is a bad choice for serious music production, sadly. Even Reaper doesn't have a proper Linux version (at least, did not when I last checked). Many music applications can be made to run run under Linux with Windows emulation of one sort of another. Reaper will run under WINE, Sibelius (with some difficulty) under VMWare, etc. But these solutions are not very satsifactory, in my view.

If you're a Linux geek with little money, as I am, you can go quite a long way with MuseScore, Timidity++, and RoseGarten, plus some of the free instrument sample libraries that can be found if you're prepared to spend a long time with Google. But in terms of accurate and convincing sound rendering, this method doesn't come close to what can be achieved with proprietary specialized applications.

Come on! You're a Unix geek and you can't UNDERSTAND Windows?

Anyway, once you're in Sibelius, you're experiencing Sibelius, not the underlying operating system.

Well, to some extent that's true. Until I have to print something and the printer doesn't work, and there's no indication why or how to find out. Or sound comes out of the wrong speakers for no obvious reason. Or the whole system restarts between one crotchet and the next because Microsoft thinks it knows better than I do when is a good time to install updates.

I guess all these things can be fixed -- I just lack the energy to find out how. I'd just rather not have to use Windows in the first place.

Hello again,

Appreciate your helping clarify matters once more :-)

I am not a computer wizard in any way so it seems to me that the natural choice for me will be a windows based program and also that a MIDI based DP should work for my purposes ...

Again - thanks for tips and time in writing and suggesting!

Greetings,

Jesper

P.S.: It's really remarkable that you people invest the time & effort in replying :-)))

*I think* that almost all DP (if not 'all') have midi capabilities. You just need to check if it has 'midi I/O' (input/output). Now the latest (eg. after 200something) models also have the ability to input midi via a usb cable, which IS easier, just not sure if it's better in terms of latency (how long it takes for your computer to realize what you played and get the sound back to you! It may take 20 msecs (which is almost negligible), or perhaps 400 msecs which is half a second and unacceptable (that was what Kevin was talking about).

Other than that this is the Internet. Personally I've benefited SO much from various people, replies and forums that I try to do the same, and I suspect that the other posters do the same!

It's worth checking -- I've noticed that some of the cheaper, self-contained DPs don't have MIDI capabilities, either USB or the traditional 5-pin. But I guess they're rare. In principle USB is more than fast enough to carry MIDI data (by about a factor of a thousand), but some of the cheap MIDI-USB converters are really bad. The latencies, presumably, come from the nasty electronics than the USB interface itself, but knowing that doesn't make it better.

I'm not sure I would bother with the old 5-pin MIDI any more, since USB is much more convenient -- although I currently do, simply because that's what I've got. At one time the benefit of the 5-pin system was you could daisy-chain devices together, and control many sound generators from one keyboard. But when you're doing everything in a computer I'm not sure that's a benefit.

These days, I think direct USB connection between DP and computer is the simplest and least hassle-making option, as well as the cheapest.

Just my $0.02, of course.

Back in 2006 I was walking in Windsor (I used to live in Old windsor, so the royal park and all that was... a walk from my home... Ah Thames Valey... sorry... side tracking...).

So I enter a music shop in Windsor and there is a simple CASIO PX110! I try my hands on that and I'm stunned! AMAZING! Quite realistic for a pianist such as myself (someone who's played for many many years piano that is). So I buy it immediately! For 199 quid! It was the time that the PX120 was coming out and I got 50 quid discount! And now we're up to PX130!

No matter the new, updated, versions out now, I actually largely prefer my old PX110, with the simple 5-pin midi connections! I don't care if I had to get an M-audio midi to usb handler, or that it has noises on the keyboard, or that the sounds are not that good! The touche, the feeling is great! Better than PX130! and I'll stik with that for as long as possible (or until I have to get some tax off my back! )

I'm sure that DPs with USB out just have the midi to usb converter built in. Older ones need an external converter to do the same thing.

I use the external converter to connect my keyboard to computer. The latency is so low that it sounds like a phase shift rather an echo. If you turn 'local off' on the keyboard it's not noticeable at all.

I like the midi in/out better because it allows me to daisychain other midi devices in the path.

Yup, they can all be fixed - and the fixing should be absoulutely trivial to a Unix geek! You've got to DRIVE this thing, you know :-)

Repeat after me - "Hardware and operating system are tools that enable you to run a program. They are not objects deserving of veneration in their own right".

Life is brief and I am no longer a young man. Time spent fiddling around with computers is time I could be spending doing something useful or fun. I have no particular regard for any particular hardware or software. I just prefer to stick with what I know works for me. It's not an ideologic thing.

Hi Jesper,
I've found that MuseScore works nicely and produces some fairly nice looking scores for piano. I've only progressed onto Sibelius as a family member had a second license available - otherwise i'd still be using MuseScore.

Hey All ;-)

I had a bit of a mind-boggling experience during the weekend. I decided to buy a midi-to-USB converter and also downloaded Pianoteq's demo software which I installed on my computer. The result was beyond my expectations - it instantly transformed my 25 years old keyboard (Korg DP-2000) into an - almost - new and outstandingly sounding keyboard! But not just that - whereas on the keyboard itself I have not been able to play very ppp sounds since there was always a minimum sound level - now I suddenly can play the subtlest sounds. Indeed an advance ...!

So, I've decided that this is the way to go for me, i.e. to have the computer "translate" the keyboard action into piano etc. sounds.

There's one "caveat", though: Although Pianoteq seems to allow a velocity level of up to 127 my keyboard apparently cannot go up higher than 100. I guess it's to do with the bit resolution inside the keyboard (?), however, wonder if it e.g. can be skewed so that I might have a somewhat higher lowest-level sound in exchange for a bit higher velocity. Any of you knows of this? Hope my question makes sense....

Also, I'll say that for now I have had very good inspiration from all of your replies about composing software etc. so I will say that it is now up to me to find out which way to go in this area.

Many Thanks :-)

Jesper

Perfect sense. In Pianoeq, find the velocity adjustment curve which is, by default, a straight line. Then click-drag the blob on the top-right of the curve so that all values about 100 are on the top (fff) line. I could probably post a screenshot if that isn't clear.

This velocity mapping will have to be done differently with different software. A better solution is to tweak your keyboard so that the maximum velocity is 127, if that's what you want. But -- sorry -- I don't know how (or if) that works on your keyboard.

@kevinb: Thanks! ... about my keyboard I reckon it's beyond the point where settings like velocity can be adjusted ;-)

Jesper

Hello again :-)

I have now been looking more into the different options yet before committing to one of the softwares I've narrowed it down to I would just like to make sure that I take future possibilities into account... Hope you can help a bit again ...

From listening to the different virtual pianos I've narrowed it down to these being interesting to me:

Pianoteq (Play version)
Galaxy Pianos Vintage D
Authorized Steinway (basic version)
EastWest/Quantum Leap pianos

As far as I can see Pianoteq is a stand-alone which requires no more software than itself to work. I am, however, not sure this is the case with the other pianos ...? E.g. it seems that the Galaxy Pianos work with the Kontakt 4 engine - but is it included?

Also, since I would like to have the option of composing in time - can all of these softwares be integrated into a sequencer (if it is so called?) engine? Or would it make sense to e.g. buy the Eastwest piano so that it may later be included e.g. in the Eastwest Symphonic Orchestra package?

I guess my question really is: Can I mix instruments bought from different manufacturers into the same "sequencer" or are there compatibility considerations to observe?

I'm really a novice in compatibility issues here - so any insights are appreciated :-)

Greetings,

Jesper

A P.S.: Since I guess that this particular forum may not be the most obvious for my last question I've also posted it in the Digital Piano section.

Best regards,

Jesper

Yes you can.

That is that yes you can mix any software instrument with other, inside a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation). The general PC protocoll for doing this is VST. Any instrument that will mention VST, will work on reaper, sonar, Cubase, Nuendo, etc... I don't recall the other protocol names. Now, the true game lies in the sound of each piano. A piano that is recorded 'wet' (with the reverbarations of the hall taken in) will have a harder time fiting in any recording, since you would have to match those reverbarations with the other instruments. On the other hand one that is completely 'dry' will always need some software/hardware reverb, which can be costly, and further to that may always sound a tiny bit fake.

Stand alone: If Galaxy mentions Kontakt 4 engine then you have to make sure they offer the Kontakt 4 player, or you can find a way to get it. Kontakt 4 sampler/engine is not the same as the player. The first will work with ALL the instrument you have based on the Kontakt format, and the latter will just work on the specific instruments and won't have any editing capabilities.

Just keep in mind that the further down you go in your list, your computer, cpu, RAM and hardware requirements ascend. It's one thing to run pianoteq on a computer (which just works fine in most cases), and another to grab the 270 GB (I think? Or is it 230 GB) of samples with Quantum Leap pianos, have it in a computer, on a hard disk and have it run.

Hi Nikolas,

Hmmm... thanks again for replying - again in a way that is most helpful to me ;-)

I hadn't considered either the reverb aspect nor that my computer should be able to accommodate huge files. As it is I have a - I think very fast - Sony Vaio (2,53 GHz Duocore with 4 GB RAM), however, I've partitioned the harddisk so that the maximum available space on one of the harddisks is about 80 GB.... And since I won't change the harddisk now this to me needs be considered.

Hopefully without taking a toll on your help here maybe I can ask you: If I e.g. buy the EWQL orchestra software (24 bit version) will you then guess that it will play on the computer I have (maybe excluding harddisk size which may be changed in time - it's altogether about 220 GB today) or will I have to consider another hardware solution? This is only a tentative question as it's most likely that I will not change my computer ...

Thanks for reading and maybe replying :-)

Jesper

needed ? none. paper and pencil worked for all the master composers.

tools that might be useful. notation: sibelius
DAW : logic or cubase
if you are making orchestral. I would stay clear of sample libraries for the beginning.
If you are making pop or edm or things that involve production , then yes , I suppose learning production is a compositional process.

Samples work in various ways, but most of them similar to this:

If you consider that a single piano (as a virtual instrument) may be 20 GBs... It's impossible to load up everything on your RAM (which up to now is limited to around 32 GBs or perhaps 64 GBs... 64-bit should be able to have more, but current motherboards are not capable I think. Anyhow)... If you want to add strings to that piano, you should have 50 GBs or RAM (which is unreasonable).

The solution to this is that each sampler (the software to load samples) will load the initial part of the sound only, and stream the rest from the hard disk. This means that if you have lots of RAM, you can load there a larger chunk of the file and leave a smaller part for your hard drive to stream. If, on the other hand you are limited to a smaller amount of RAM, you may need to stress your hard drives.

Which brings me to the following two points:

1. It's vastly important to know how good your hard drives are! Typically laptop hard drives are 5400 rpm (runs (?) per minute, or spins per minute anyhow). Which is rather slow, along with its small cache. My own drives are 7200 rpm and 64 cache, which is much better for the previous generation. Current hard drives are the SSDs which are rather expensive, but at the same time act almost as fast as your RAM (which is 'instant' sort of).

2. It's also important to have lots of RAM. BUT. In order to use more than 3 GBs of RAM effectively (the limit in theory is 4, but the switch does not work) you need to have a 64-bit computer and OS (Operation System. Like Windows). Any 32-bit will not recognize your additional RAM, so it will go to waste. Same goes for the software you use (although there are complicated work arounds that).

Bottom line: Unless it's a GREAT laptop, it's going to be difficult to put tons of stuff in it. Yes, you could put the EWQL SO Platinum (the 24-bit), but in all honesty I've managed to do with Gold (which is 16-bit only), just fine so far...

And think about it: EWQLSO Gold is around 30 GBs (I think), while the Steinway Basic is 1, and the pro is around 60 GBs... Pianoteq is 20+ MB (so 0,02 GB) and the Quantum Leap pianos 270 GB!!!! Yes, more is better, but you need to be able to handle it, and it seems that at this point you shouldn't bet on the larger packages of your choices...

EDIT: MadforBrad: If you check the beginning of the thread, I've given plenty of options to Jesper... Plus offering one sided opinion (ONLY Sibelius, or ONLY Cubase/Logic) seems wrong to someone who doesn't know that much!

Hi Nikolas and other fine people here,

I've now tested the Galaxy II pianos on my laptop - the happenings of life made it possible - and have posted my comments in this thread:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1779808

Basically, what I found was that they worked flawlessly at 44.1 kHz ASIO4All sampling frequency whereas for higher sampling frequencies there were increasingly glitches and drop-outs.

However, what's more is that the sound of the pianos - to my ears! - had some life and nuance that I don't quite find with Pianoteq (currently evaluating the Play version). So .... ;-)

A smile from me,

Jesper

P.S. @Nikolas: I would be hesitant to push the computer even further with the file sizes you write about in your previous post. Although I reckon there's still some headroom with Galaxy Pianos I consider that it's not too wide.

Hi All,

Just FYI I ended up in the first round buying the Galaxy II pianos which - again to my ears - have much of what I seek ...

Thanks again for your advice & suggestions :-) I reckon that as time progresses I may get back to this thread to help remembering suggestions and options..

All the best,

Jesper