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#1581361 - 12/21/10 12:12 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
krzyzowski Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 107
The importance of attempting to get these things to sound like a Bose or a Stein or any piano is IMHO secondary to the basic goal of DP builders; and that is to get the most pleasing sound to the most people. After all, we are listening to paper not strings. The engineers built in a second set of outputs and spent time to get some sound re-enforcement hence more closely simulating a wood piano. Now, the sound comes from paper is never going to beat-out a soundboard and strings, we are left with pushing buttons, turning knobs and fiddling with speakers. When you think about it, a good sample from a concert grand should be the real deal because it is. But the model concept has flexibility where samples don't.

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#1581553 - 12/21/10 05:09 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
Kawai James Online   content
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8401
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
+1 for Pianoteq-style modelled EPs in the next V-Piano.

Cheers,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
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"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#1582115 - 12/22/10 11:48 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
Jackrabbit710 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Holywell north Wales
I will upload a few of my settings later, bennevis, do you apply eq to any of your patches? I find that with my speaker system (yamaha stagepas500) I have to give it a little boost around the 200hz at it sounds dry there, also a 4db boost around the 1600hz mark with a Q of 1.0. This brings the sound out a lot more and makes it cut through when I'm say playing with jazz backing tracks. I also shelve off the very highest hz which softens the sound of the resonant strings around the centre but that's probably because I'm not used to playing on concert tuned steinways and more basing my sound off jazz recordings.

I have made a great custom all round jazz/pop grand which I will upload the settings for, named the jazz club grand wink
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#1582226 - 12/22/10 02:48 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: Jackrabbit710]
Nla91 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 6
Originally Posted By: Jackrabbit710

I have made a great custom all round jazz/pop grand which I will upload the settings for, named the jazz club grand wink


Looking forward to it!

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#1582664 - 12/23/10 06:56 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: Jackrabbit710]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: Jackrabbit710
I will upload a few of my settings later, bennevis, do you apply eq to any of your patches? I find that with my speaker system (yamaha stagepas500) I have to give it a little boost around the 200hz at it sounds dry there, also a 4db boost around the 1600hz mark with a Q of 1.0. This brings the sound out a lot more and makes it cut through when I'm say playing with jazz backing tracks. I also shelve off the very highest hz which softens the sound of the resonant strings around the centre but that's probably because I'm not used to playing on concert tuned steinways and more basing my sound off jazz recordings.

I have made a great custom all round jazz/pop grand which I will upload the settings for, named the jazz club grand wink


I've not tried to apply any equalizations - my knowledge of electronic and IT stuff is actually next to non-existent and I thought you needed to connect a special console with lots of sliding levers to the back of the V-Piano in order to do it properly cry, which is somewhat above my feeble mind....

But I will certainly try out your jazz grand setting, though probably minus the equalizations, unless I've worked out how to use them in the meantime.

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#1582705 - 12/23/10 08:56 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2331
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
V-Piano has onboard digital sweepable EQ - very easy to use if I remember correctly.

Steve
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#1582810 - 12/23/10 11:58 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: EssBrace]
krzyzowski Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 107
One of the most useful tools is the EQ. Just push the EQ button and everything is adjustable. You can't make a mistake; at least if you don't press write..

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#1582852 - 12/23/10 12:59 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Thanks, I'll give it a try. After all, it's Christmas.....

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#1582855 - 12/23/10 01:06 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
EssBrace Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/01/09
Posts: 2331
Loc: Suffolk, United Kingdom
Yes, treat yourself!
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#1582932 - 12/23/10 03:19 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
Jackrabbit710 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Holywell north Wales
Jazz club grand

From the top of the tone menu

Original : triple power
SL 0
SP 0
SR + 20
DR + 16
SBR + 25
KOR +5
UT + 11
ST standard
HH -5
CR -35
DT 0
TC 0
DT +10

Now fine tune the tuning, lots of random scattered notes in + tuning, not to far as to drastically change the tuning

Hammer hardeness slightly softer down bottom end with scattered random hardness throughout

Resonance slightly dipped away from the c3-c5 area. Press rangeset, hold c3,4 and 5 then bring the value down a about -10, do the same but to the very bottom end. Then finally scatter a few + and - resonant notes around the entire keyboard

Let me know what you think, this sounds great playing along to my aebersold backing tracks
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#1583236 - 12/24/10 05:36 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: Jackrabbit710]
Nla91 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 6
Thanks a lot! Will try it out as soon as I get a possibility:-)

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#1583243 - 12/24/10 06:17 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Thanks, will try it out when I get home and let you know after Christmas (I won't have any access to a computer till 29th cry).

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#1588828 - 01/02/11 03:53 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
V_Piano_Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 28
Hello all,

I finally made time (need more time though) to play with some of these contributed voicings and provide feedback.
I want to be more detailed, however other commitments await.

Firstly my testing environment. Finished stripping the upright and have placed my V in place of the original desk. The dimensions of the V and original desk provide a perfect match. I decided after much research to use four near field studio monitors and bought four Adam A7's. My intention is to emulate the sound produced at the position where the hammer strikes the string. The cavity of the upright and the timber of the case can do what it must naturally do to resonate/vibrate sound. So I wanted the most detailed sound speaker for this without spending 5 - 10K per speaker. The Adams are proving successful after little testing. I even have a beautiful vibration through the v cabinet which I feel through the keys. The ambient (B channel) speakers at the moment sit on the timber floorboards from which I feel vibration through my feet. So far, so good. I would like to point out I have played with the settings of the Vertical piano and I have something which is convincing that the piano is creating the sound. Extremely impressed. Brilliant work Roland! The volume of the vertical is quieter representing a smaller scale piano - an upright compared to a concert grand.

Anyway, Just put in JackRabbits Jazz club and it is very good. More experiment necessary and randomizing of hammers etc.

Hi Bennevis , also put in your list of known pianos from playing experience. Yes you have managed to capture the known qualities of the respective pianos. You obviously have good hearing, I like how the Yamaha has the added brightness and I really like the Bosie especially the bass, and have started experimenting with subtle changes. I will continue playimg with them to fine tune for my taste although unnecessary. Keep in mind I am still tuning my speaker system.

I will also mention that my approach for testing the piano sounds and the general sound of my piano setup is to firstly listen from outside the room and also from other rooms. (I am trying to obtain the correct volume of the piano) I know when the sound is working when my mind absolutely believes there is a quality piano being played from the nearby room (door open). So I will play some midi files and it really is convincing at times especially during f ff fff passages when this imagined soundboard is singing loudly . Again brilliant work Roland and Adam.


Anyway more testing and revising some of my sounds so I can post. There is a difference - headphones compared to speakers obviously.

vpianoman

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#1588855 - 01/02/11 05:37 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
Dave Horne Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/04
Posts: 5261
Loc: Vught, The Netherlands
Somewhere packed away I have a book for the Hammond Organ - page after page after page of drawbar settings.

Why did that pop into my mind from this thread?
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#1589026 - 01/02/11 01:37 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: V_Piano_Man]
kiedysktos. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/02/08
Posts: 424
Loc: Europe, Poland
Originally Posted By: V_Piano_Man
Firstly my testing environment. Finished stripping the upright and have placed my V in place of the original desk. The dimensions of the V and original desk provide a perfect match. I decided after much research to use four near field studio monitors and bought four Adam A7's. My intention is to emulate the sound produced at the position where the hammer strikes the string. The cavity of the upright and the timber of the case can do what it must naturally do to resonate/vibrate sound. So I wanted the most detailed sound speaker for this without spending 5 - 10K per speaker. The Adams are proving successful after little testing. I even have a beautiful vibration through the v cabinet which I feel through the keys. The ambient (B channel) speakers at the moment sit on the timber floorboards from which I feel vibration through my feet. So far, so good.


I would appreciate any photos of your setup, sounds very interesting.
_________________________
Roland FP-4

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#1589124 - 01/02/11 04:50 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
V_Piano_Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 28
"Somewhere packed away I have a book for the Hammond Organ - page after page after page of drawbar settings. " - Dave Horne.

I hear you Dave.
My intention is to experiment with the possibility of sound(s). And arrive at a point with 2 or 3 pianos that I continually use. I think I actually have reached that point. In fact 1 piano is just right .... well, probably. I will post the settings for others. I would love to have your Yamaha N. When I bought the V almost 12 months ago, I was resuming playing and practice after a number of years. I did not see either 'N' and the V appealed, highly. I never expected to have the curiousity to expand the sound externally. And to strip an upright. An enjoyable experience however.

And so .. is it time to find the Hammond reference and dispose? If you throw your book away I promise to stop playing with settings. You first.

Re: kiedysktos. I shall see what I can arrange.

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#1590189 - 01/04/11 07:51 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: V_Piano_Man]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Originally Posted By: V_Piano_Man
Hello all,



Hi Bennevis , also put in your list of known pianos from playing experience. Yes you have managed to capture the known qualities of the respective pianos. You obviously have good hearing, I like how the Yamaha has the added brightness and I really like the Bosie especially the bass, and have started experimenting with subtle changes. I will continue playimg with them to fine tune for my taste although unnecessary. Keep in mind I am still tuning my speaker system.

I will also mention that my approach for testing the piano sounds and the general sound of my piano setup is to firstly listen from outside the room and also from other rooms. (I am trying to obtain the correct volume of the piano) I know when the sound is working when my mind absolutely believes there is a quality piano being played from the nearby room (door open). So I will play some midi files and it really is convincing at times especially during f ff fff passages when this imagined soundboard is singing loudly . Again brilliant work Roland and Adam.


Anyway more testing and revising some of my sounds so I can post. There is a difference - headphones compared to speakers obviously.

vpianoman


Thanks for that - it's nice to know that others like my settings, and find them reasonably accurate. For me, it's like having several well-known brands of concert grands in my tiny apartment, which I can play on anytime of day or night (and often do...) without worrying about neighbors.

Did you try the 4-speaker system and placement that Roland advocates in its manual? According to reviewers who tried it, it gives the real impression of the sound of a concert grand sitting at the keyboard.

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#1590613 - 01/04/11 05:42 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
V_Piano_Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 28
"Did you try the 4-speaker system and placement that Roland advocates in its manual? According to reviewers who tried it, it gives the real impression of the sound of a concert grand sitting at the keyboard." - Bennevis.

I have the setup modeling an upright soundboard. Channel A at top at hammer strike point (player position) and channel B speakers where the bottom end of the soundboard would be (at my feet on the floor).

I would like to have the setup emulating a grand (horizontal) soundboard - I think it would be better as the sound would be directed in a different way (up and around not straight out from a wall). Regardless it is brilliant.

Interestingly, regarding the proportions of different pianos sound - as you are aware the default pianos of the V are of different sizes. The sound produced through the speaker system is consistent with this. It is remarkable (hence I am remarking) what Roland have achieved in this aspect. Accordingly as my room containing the V is approx 10 * 15 feet the sound of the concert grand pianos are just too big. Truly i have to increase volume to hear the correct p's and f's and the right sound of the piano character. If I use your Bosie setting for instance and I leave the room , the sound produced sounds like a concert grand housed in a small room. My mind absolutely believes that the entire room is a complete sound source. It is magnificent but just too big.

So I have experimented and the right sound for the room for my liking is based upon the V2 clear tone increase primarily to +2 with velocity 100 and some resonance and hammer changes. Sorry still have to get to the V to copy/write the settings. The piano sounds correct for the room.

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#1591485 - 01/05/11 10:35 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
V_Piano_Man Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/10
Posts: 28
IF there is a ROLAND rep/exec/tech/engineer and/or an ADAM audio rep/exec/tech/engineer viewing this thread PLEASE contact bennevis and offer him the use of 4 ADAM A7's or better (also include a subwoofer - why Not?).

Bennevis I have again tested you known piano voicings/settings and WOW! You really have managed to achieve something special. Thank you for honest listening and reproduction.

I suppose I have my Adams working better now. I know having the Channel B speakers in the correct position and angle has helped tremendously. You must be hearing something different and better through your AKG240's(?) than my AKG701's (when I use them). (Oh AKG please contact me and I will have what Bennevis is having.)

Anyway - I was a little non committal about the Steinway but now - great job. I love it. And the Yamaha - for instance a pop piece such as 'Yesterday' - beautiful.

And the Bosendorfer. Ladies and gentlemen stand back please.

I am now hearing a much smoother middle sweet spot of the piano. Previously there were the notes around the middle which were too metally sounding to my ears. Let me say that I remember years ago when I was programming some synth patches for a studio I read an article where an audio engineer described the envelope of a note. Specifically regarding the attack - he said the piano note attack and an organ note attack were very close to being the same. So this metally sound I speak of would be something like the attack of a note played on an organ .

Anyway that is being rectified now.

Truly Bennevis you need to somehow try a speaker setup even if you hire for 1 night. But hopefully Roland and Adam will be contacting you shortly.

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#1592423 - 01/07/11 07:08 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
Thanks again for your compliments. I'd certainly love to try the quadrophonic speaker set-up on my V-Piano, but there's no room in my lounge, which is cluttered with music scores, books, CDs, mountaineering gear, running shoes....and I suspect my neighbours will start banging on my walls and floor if I so much as play it at normal volume. I'm still dreaming of moving to a mansion where I can play without my AKG K271 Mk II completely undisturbed and without annoying anybody. Certainly the AKGs are by far the best headphones I've ever used (and they were given free with my V-Piano purchase!), but I haven't really compared them to other AKGs.

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#1606508 - 01/27/11 04:57 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
Jackrabbit710 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Holywell north Wales
Really getting to grips with the v-piano and loving it even more. I find myself playing different piano models depending on what mood I'm in, one of my best being a modified triple large piano for my jazz solo pieces. It sounds so good!

I wonder if we can expect an uprgrade when the v-piano grand comes along, I take it they will use the same firmware. Mate a few new models/features?

I was reading a forum post about people not liking the sound?! I think it's a similar situation to video games, they are getting that close to the real thing, that if something is just ever so slightly different, we notice it from reality. We were happy 10 years ago playing piano samples that today sound really fake, so rather than thinking what great progress technology has created, we are quick to criticise!
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#1606656 - 01/27/11 11:46 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
MarcoM Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 246
the uncanny valley applies to audio as well you think? That's definitely an interesting idea...

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#1607996 - 01/29/11 09:37 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
Jackrabbit710 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/20/10
Posts: 6
Loc: Holywell north Wales
That's exactly what im trying to say, I had to read up on uncanny valley as I was unaware of it but it sums it up perfectly. The sound is getting that close that we get negative emotions from it because it actually isn't the real thing.

Not that I get any negative emotions smile
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#1625058 - 02/21/11 10:38 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
I've modified my original post, to increase the sustain time for all the settings to acoustic concert grand levels (see my other new post about this).

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#1627213 - 02/24/11 07:48 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
HwyStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 319
Thanks for the settings Bennevis! I am demoing the V-Piano today and I will try setting the piano up using some of your settings. I will make sure to leave the settings with the dealer since they don't have a clue on how to tweak it.

I will home in on the Blüthner settings since I just played a model 2 this last weekend and fell in love with it. What a beautiful piano! If only I had 75k... It is six years old and at that perfect stage of being played enough to be all warmed up. The owner of the store is a piano tech and it is his pet piano. He has it dialed in perfectly.

I just talked with the Roland US rep and they are still in the process of tweaking the software for the V-Piano Grand. He mentioned that they have been working with the cabinet and speakers, and the interaction of both to the software. They learned a lot from user feedback at the NAMM show and that their comments really helped them to fine-tune the sounds. I really am looking forward to hearing and playing one. Just imagine being able to play a "real grand" with its beautiful tones and then to be able to practice the same instrument at 2:00am and no one can hear you... Priceless!

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#1627345 - 02/24/11 11:32 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
bennevis Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 4400
I've been informed by my local dealer that they'll be setting up the V-Grand in their showroom in April - hopefully all updated tweaks will be installed by then. I'm looking forward to trying it out - not that I'm thinking of 'upgrading' to it, as there's no room in my apartment (the V-Piano has already taken up all remaining floor space....) but just to see how it sounds via its speakers compared to my V-Piano via headphones. And I'm going to be customizing my settings on it for their benefit - whether they want them or not... grin

I did fall in love with the Blüthners at the showroom - in particular a reconditioned one from circa 1920, with its olde worlde, mellow yet powerful sound. But my heart has long since been taken by the Bösendorfer Imperial (and I'm the faithful sort grin), so Blüthner will have to come second...

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#1627421 - 02/24/11 01:28 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
faulhorn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 107
Interesting thread. Coming in late.

Note that Adam A7 was mentioned. Originally we picked up the Yamaha HS80M. It was inadequate. I think the 8" drivers are just too large for a tight mid. So went back and the sound engineer highly recommended the Adam A7. Comparing the Adam A7 and the Yamaha HS80, it was clear that the Adam was better.

However, on a whim, I asked that we also test the Yamaha HS50M and the HS10W sub. The sound engineer was convinced that it would not be close. However, we both agreed that the HS50M and HS10W sub was much more natural and full range than the Adam A7. The bass with the sub is obviously also much better. We picked up the Yamaha set up new for $617 shipped with judicious shopping and are very happy with it. now we have to figure out whether to add the 3rd and 4th channel - does it make a lot of difference?

Thanks,
F

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#1627426 - 02/24/11 01:34 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
PianoZac Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1421
Originally Posted By: bennevis


I did fall in love with the Blüthners at the showroom - in particular a reconditioned one from circa 1920, with its olde worlde, mellow yet powerful sound. But my heart has long since been taken by the Bösendorfer Imperial (and I'm the faithful sort grin), so Blüthner will have to come second...


Is there a finer piano than the Bosendorfer Imperial? smile That's the pinnacle of pianos IMHO. My top 3 grands:

1. Bosendorfer Imperial
2. Steinway D
3. Shigeru-Kawai EX Concert

Sorry to jack the thread! On topic, while I don't own a V-Piano, the V-Grand looks fantastic. Has anyone seen an actual street price for the V-Grand yet?


Edited by PianoZac (02/24/11 01:34 PM)
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#1627443 - 02/24/11 01:55 PM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: bennevis]
faulhorn Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 107
We're just at the front end of learning about the V Piano. It would sure be nice if consumer can 'create' a particular piano, save it as a file, and then post it on line. Others can download it to a USB mem stick and then just download to the Vpiano. That would be fantastic to quickly share a limitless number of piano models.

F

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#1627849 - 02/25/11 09:17 AM Re: V-Piano presets exchange! How many piano sounds can you get? [Re: faulhorn]
HwyStar Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/17/11
Posts: 319
Faulhorn: Some of the users at Roland Clan are using the 4.1 of the V and say that it does sound better. One user is using the V inside of a vertical cabinet with the 1/2 speakers at ear level and 3/4 speakers on the floor of the cabinet to give ambiance, depth and feel to the setup. See the posts over there for more info. For a lot of info go to: http://forums.rolandclan.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29146

You can save the setup to a file then post it for others to restore. As long as you save your setups you are good! The way Bennevis has posted his settings should take just seconds to dial in on your V for trial. What do I know... I haven't even touched a V yet. I plan on demoing one this weekend.


Edited by HwyStar (02/25/11 09:18 AM)

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New Topics - Multiple Forums
Noodling board
by Maarkr
Yesterday at 10:20 PM
New Movement Composed "To Rule" 4/20/2014
by hsheck
Yesterday at 10:17 PM
Understanding Sharps
by imustlearn
Yesterday at 08:18 PM
When a beginner is not a beginner anymore?
by Eight Octaves
Yesterday at 08:09 PM
DEBUSSY-"Serenade for the Doll" from 'Children's Corner'
by Hal Freedman
Yesterday at 07:14 PM
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