Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Tuning a piano with mediator

Уважаемый Евгений, тронут до слёз развернувшейся полемикой вокруг темы: «Настройка с помощью медиатора». Не скрою, что не ожидал от нашего международного форума подобных широких, а самое главное конструктивных моментов обсуждения вопроса. Огромное спасибо всем техника, давшим лестные оценки в мой адрес. Позволю Евгений, Вас просить, в очередной раз протянуть руку помощи с просьбой перевода моих строк, чтобы была понятна моя позиция. Только Вы, как практик, способны донести до мировой общественности мои чаяния и личные переживания. Начну с лирической ноты, чтобы люди могли понять, почему Максим делает «всё шиворот-навыворот». Я начал пользоваться интернетом сравнительно недавно, менее 2 лет тому назад по причине моей бедности. Когда я увидел клипы в сети, как некоторые настройщики настраивают, не скрою, был удивлён и даже обескуражен, теми методами и подходами, которые они применяют в вопросах темперации и их техникой работы с ключом. Это вовсе не значит, что они это делают неправильно, и только я знаю, «как надо настраивать пианино». Меня удивила техника работы ключом, а именно, очень резкие и непродуманные вращения, ведущие к завышению требуемого тона, а затем отпускания. Вы, наверное, Евгений понимаете о чём я? Думаю Вам как практику настройщику, работавшему в Союзе, хорошо известно, что колки в советских инструментах очень часто установлены в пробке вербильбанка или окошке посадочного места пробки (панцирный вид рамы) не по центру. И, подобная практика не допустима. Движения при настройке «Беларуси» или «Токкаты» сродни работы сапёра на минном поле. Здесь каждое движение необходимо сначала проанализировать с точки зрения физики и философии врача «не навреди», иначе не будет ни то, что строя, а даже его приблизительного подобия, а уж потом плавно вести давление всей руки, игнорируя вороток ключа, подключая сжатый кулак в основание ключа. Я иногда, простите за некоторую нескромность, «вытягиваю с того Света», очередную советскую модель пианино и искренне вместе с клиентом радуюсь за инструмент на котором был поставлен «крест». Как я пришёл к тому, что работаю самодельными, но очень качественными ключами, с точки зрения физики? Вновь должен сделать лирическое отступление. Когда я был очень юный и обучался в Уральском Государственном музыкальном училище, по программе необходимо было изучать предмет «общее фортепиано», а я народник (баянист), то родители пожертвовали в то, неспокойное время перестройки сумму денег, чтобы я мог приобрести себе подержанную « Украину» 1967г. Инструмент мне настроил в то время неплохой настройщик в нашем городе, но как Вы понимаете он менее чем через год расстроился, и я вынужден был как то выходить из сложившейся ситуации. Денег на настройку на было, а зачёты по гармонии и теории музыки, а также фортепиано нужно было сдавать. Отец по большому блату изготовил мне конусный четырёхгранный ключ, и я стал практиковать на собственном пианино, абсолютно не зная основ настройки и темперации. Сейчас мне приятно и трепетно вспоминать те первые, но всё же, осмысленные шаги. Читая и поглощая в безмерных количествах литературу по музыкальной теории, я уяснил для себя, что есть звук и как его можно делить. Ни будь этой практики, думаю, что я никогда бы не понял и не смог бы настраивать инструменты. Надо так же отметить, что по причине моей провинциальности, я даже и не подозревал, что классический настроечный ключ совсем другой. Итак, постепенно запасаясь теоретическим и практическим багажом знания, я, практикуя на своей «Украине», неожиданно стал получать заказы. Главным откровением для меня стали слова одного преподавателя, имеющего за плечами Ленинградскую консерваторию, когда он отметил, что такой правильной и грамотной темперации он даже не смог бы себе вообразить на советском пианино. Это я потом уже для себя выяснил, что он имел ввиду, говоря, и посмеиваясь, что « Бах был бы рад».
Теперь по существу вопроса я должен заявить следующее,
никому и никаким образом не навязываю своего «неправильного метода настройки», потому, что как было сказано раньше «всё моё творчество есть продукт вынужденных обстоятельств», однако я считаю, что подобный метод имеет место быть и вот почему:
1. Одно из принципиальных преимуществ работы 4х гранным конусным ключом это очень трудное его вращение и подгонка нужного тона, таким образом, присутствует особая концентрация слуха настройщика и музыкального анализа искомого звука. В противном случае настройщик быстро утомится и не настроит правильных нот даже в хорах
2. При работе ключом мы невольно сохраняем ресурс посадочного места колка. Состояние колкового механизма – это « тело и душа фортепиано». Чем меньше перемещается колок в вербильбанке, тем больше остаточный ресурс пианино, и как следствие продолжительнее с точки зрения темперации «правильный звук». Я заметил, что настроенный мной инструмент, особенно импортного производства, до 5-7 лет не расстраивается!
3. Колки «не зализываются». Восьмигранный ключ, хотим мы это принимать или нет, всё равно, раз за разом срабатывает грани колка. А это ущерб колку.
4. Когда я работаю без заглушек, то без всяких условностей и самое главное, не отвлекаясь на перемещение искомых интервалов всего инструмента способен, экономя время и ресурс колка, слышать ВЕСЬ спектр гармонии и интервалики, как в отдельных секторах, так и в аккордовом изложении и подобно русскому гусляру.
5. Единственное и принципиальное неудобство, данного метода, его продолжительность. А, именно я настраиваю обычно более 5 часов. Однако неудобства настройщика не в счёт.
С уважением, ко всем участникам форума, Максим
In GOD WE TRuST

You may laugh and cry simultaneously, but truth in that that idea with paperboard not new, but single correct. Shim cardboard provides 100% stability pin in pinblook

Thinking about the extension on Max’s tool, I am reminded of the extension used for tuning the high treble on grands so that the hammer clears the case. There isn’t that much difference. Flagpoling is flagpoling. But the direction of the flagpoling can work for or against you. And even though a T-handle can remove all flagpoling, it does nothing for compensating for the spring from twisting the pin. However, selective flagpoling can compensate for the spring from twisting the pin. Yes, there is the residual torque and the rendering of the string to deal with also. But there is a specific point I want to make.

Although Max’s technique is painful for me to watch, it is still an opportunity to observe the physics involved. OK, the pin is being flagpoled an enormous amount in the flat direction. But at the same time the spring in the pin is in the sharp direction as is the residual torque and the string rendering. If there is enough bearing friction, it may not be necessary to ease the pin back CCW for stability. Unfortunately, I don’t think Max quite has things balanced that well.

Going back to the high treble on grands, I sometimes find one where putting the hammer at around 10 o’clock in the left hand works well. This is a similar position as Max’s, but without the extension which makes a huge difference.

There is no right way or wrong way of doing things, I guess. Anyone can use any methods, correct or not; any tools, correct or not. Results can be bad or good; it's all good.



No, the statement is correct; let me rephrase it to make it clearer. The T lever does not give enough leverage to actually turn the pin, resulting in twisting and bending rather than turning. That leads to unstable tunings.

There is] nothing wrong with sharing your techniques, but promoting and supporting them if the techniques are wrong and can damage a piano, or if they lead to poor results is simply wrong. That may not be politically incorrect, but truth seldom is.

There seems to be an underlying sentiment with some here that whatever methods one uses are ok. It went so far as the Kawai thread, where a tech muscled plate bolts so hard that he sheared the heads off them, and some thing there's nothing wrong with the tech and everything wrong with the piano!

If advocating the use of proper tools and methods makes me the bad guy, so be it. New, innovative methods are one thing; makeshift methods and tools are quite another.

Yes I do know what you are saying, but I don't think you do. Believe it or not, you are saying the customer is not always right. That is the point I am trying to make. That attitude is a good way to not have a customer.

Nope, you don't understand at all. In the interest of avoiding "cronyism," (as though somehow educating someone on proper techniques is that), you would allow someone who does substandard work to be out vandalizing pianos. Are you implying that a customer is "right" when he/she, not knowing better, calls a quack for service? Because if you are, that's actually laughable.

This is not the first time you attempt to twist things, Jeff, and both you and I know it won't be the last. Protecting an incompetent tech over the people whose pianos he damages is the very cronyism you claim to be against. Attempting to frame that as "protecting customers from themselves" or as the customer "not always being right" is both weak and funny at the same time.

Loren:

Let's say Max was in the next town over from you. How would you handle the situation?

It's not clear?

Why are you answering a question with a question?

You mean like you just did?

Because you already admittedly know the answers. And because by this stage of the thread, if you don't know, you still won't know after I explain it to you.

If you think that lets you off the hook, you are ignorantly smug.

There's one detail I haven't figured out. When we storm the castle to destroy the evil monster, do you go along or do you stay in your warm study and say "Oh, what a shame!" after rousing the rabble?

Max, I would really appreciate a translation of your latest post that is in Cyrilic.

Loren. Thank you for your expertise on the use of the T hammer. With every word it becomes increasingly aparent that you have no skills or experiemce using one whatsoever.

If you had started with the words; "I would imagine" your whole diatribe might be taken a little more seriously.

As with any tool, it takes years of practice and experience to build the skills and develop the strength to use one. It doesn't take much strength to become adept at miniscule turning adjustments but does take a combination of delicacy and moderate strength. I am quite wiry in build and I have no trouble with it but have been using it for year, particularly in grand high trebles when it is inconvenient to raise the lid.

I'm going to use mine more as a result of this conversation. On approprite instruments, of course.

As for 'correct' and 'proper' tools, (what pedantic words) what could be more ideal than a tool that let's you separate out the various components of the mechanics of tuning in a way that a lever can't.

Good luck with the new pianos with monster pinblocks that are difficult to tune even with an impact hammer! It's your wrist, after all.

Of course, didn't I just get thru telling you that there are limits only a couple of posts back?

Please don't resort to these silly transparent arguing techniques to obfuscate the issue. It's an adolescent trick. You simply did not know what you were talking about.

It is quite possible that the lever was introduced to deal with very tight pinblocks. When were laminated pinblocks first introduced? I simply don't know so I won't write about things I don't know.

I am going to a meeting in a few days and several international piano historians will be present. I'll ask them.

I find history fascinating, don't you? Particularly now that a lot of it is in my lifetime.

Translation:

Dear Eugene, moved to tears ensuing controversy around the theme: "Set up with the mediator." Frankly, he did not expect from our international forum such broad, and the most important moments of constructive discussion. Many thanks to all equipment that gave flattering assessment to me. Allow Eugene to ask you, once again extend a helping hand with a request to transfer my lines to be understood my position. Only you, as a practitioner, able to convey to the world's hopes and my personal experience. I will start with a lyric sheet, so that people can understand why Maxim does "everything topsy-turvy." I started using the Internet recently, less than 2 years ago because of my poverty. When I saw the clips on the network, as some tuners tuned, I will not deny, was surprised and even dismayed, by the methods and approaches that they apply in matters of temperament and technique work with the key. This does not mean that they are doing wrong, and only I know, "how to tune a piano." I was surprised by the techniques of working key, and it was very abrupt and ill-rotation, leading to an overestimation of the desired tone, and then released. You probably Eugene know what I mean? I think you like the practice of wizards, who worked in the Union, is well known that the splitting in the Soviet instruments are often installed in a traffic jam or verbilbanka window seat tube (frame testaceous species) is not centered. And this practice is not acceptable. Motion for setting up "Belarus" and "Toccata" is akin to the work field engineer in a minefield. Here, every movement must first be analyzed in terms of physics and the philosophy of the doctor "do no harm", otherwise it will not have that system, and even its approximate similarity, and then to smoothly maintain pressure throughout the arm, ignoring the ratchet key, attaching a clenched fist in base key. I sometimes, sorry for some indiscretion, "pulled from the Light", another Soviet model of piano and genuinely happy with the customer for an instrument which was made a "cross". How I came to the fact that I work with homemade, but very high quality keys, from the standpoint of physics? Again has to do digress. When I was very young and studied at the Ural State Music School, the program was necessary to study the subject of a "common piano," but I'm a populist (accordionist), then the parents have sacrificed in fact borrowed time adjustment amount of money so I could buy a second hand " Ukraine "in 1967. I set up the instrument at that time a good tuner in our city, but as you understand it less than a year, was upset, and I had a way out of this situation. Money for the setting to it, and tests on harmony and music theory, piano and had to surrender. His father made the big cronyism I tapered four-sided key, and I began to practice on your own piano, absolutely not knowing the basics of configuring and temperament. Now, I am pleased and anxious to remember those first, but nevertheless, meaningful steps. By reading and absorbing immense quantities in the literature on music theory, I understand for ourselves what is the sound and how it can divide. Nor whether this practice, I think I would have never understood and could not tune up. It should also be noted that because of my provincialism, I had no idea that the classical tuning key is different. So, gradually stocking the theoretical and practical knowledge of luggage, I'm practicing on his "Ukraine", suddenly began to receive orders. The main revelation for me were the words of one teacher who has behind him the Leningrad Conservatory, where he noted that such a proper and correct temperament, he could not even imagine the Soviet piano. This I then found out for myself what he meant when he said, and chuckled that "Bach would be pleased."
Now, on the merits, I must state the following,
anyone and in no way impose its "improper methods for setting", because as we said earlier, "All my work is the product of a coercive environment," but I believe that this method is the place to be and here's why:
1. One of the principal advantages of the 4 sided taper key is very difficult to rotate and fit the right tone, so there is a particular concentration of the hearing tuner and musical analysis of the desired sound. Otherwise, the tune quickly weary, and not set up correctly notes, even in the choir
2. When working key, we can not help save the life seat chopping. Pegs state mechanism - a "body and soul of the piano." The fewer moves in verbilbanke pin, the greater the residual life of a piano, and as a consequence of the longer terms of temperament, "the right sound." I noticed that I tuned instrument, especially imported, up to 5-7 years do not worry!
3. Tuners not "licking." The octagonal key, whether we like it or not take, anyway, over and over again triggered the verge of splitting. This damage pins.
4. When I work without stubs, then without any conditionality, and most importantly, staying focused on moving the desired intervals, the entire instrument is able to save time and resource chopping, to hear the full range of harmony and intervaliki, both in individual sectors, and in the presentation of chords and like the Russian guslar.
5. The only and fundamental disadvantage of this method, its duration. And, it is usually I set more than 5 hours. However, the inconvenience tuner does not count.
With respect to all participants of the forum, Maxim

Max,

Thank you for sharing your story. Very inspiring. Looks like you are on the right path. It's always good to know that someone is always looking for different ways to solve a problem or to perfect their skill. Wish you all the best.

As we already see, many techs (even in U.S., to rxd) use T shape to tune pianos, I personally use it on hapsichords and harps. Unfortunately I cannot use it on the piano, due to lack of strength in my wrist. I believe that T shape tuning hammer is less damaging for piano compared to L shape. All in all, good piano techs can implement both when necessary.

Thank you Gene for good words . Indiscribable pleased that method of T shape tuning hammer use in USA. For me big discovery that You personally use for harp and hapsichords
Искренне Ваш Максим

Dear Sirs (UnrightToone, rxd, pianosxxi, DoelKees, pianolive, accordeur, rysowers) Thank You for support and understanding to importance of the subject. You have indicated much positive moments. I express feeling of the deep moral satisfaction for your messages

DoelKees спасибо за качественный и весьма понятный перевод
С уважением maxim_tuner (Maximillyan)

The Dear piano tec. forgive that film in russian only. Be can You will useful see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j-2cvK8hKA