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#1772680 - 10/18/11 06:38 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Registered: 04/12/05
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Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Quote:
For the record, I don't use flash cards, ever. But different strokes for different folks...


Indeed. And you managed to say it without dripping condescension.
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#1772739 - 10/18/11 08:57 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Originally Posted By: moebo
This next question will prove my naivety. When you show the flash card, are you asking for the letter name response or the key on the piano response? Both I assume?



Yes. I have students "play and say" the note on the card. I do this for two reasons - it gives me feedback on both naming notes and finding them on the keyboard, and I'm a firm believer in connecting the brain, hands, and mouth together.

A side benefit is that once students are used to saying something and playing at the same time, counting aloud becomes much easier, too.

Also, I believe that flash cards must be timed. I don't use them for recognition, I use them mostly for speed. Far too many people ignore this aspect of note learning. I've found that to be a good reader, a student should be able to go through 30 flash cards in 60 seconds. (Yes, my 10 year olds can do 30 flash cards in 60 seconds.)
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#1772742 - 10/18/11 09:01 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Another reason why timed flash card drills work for some kids is that it becomes a game.
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#1772799 - 10/18/11 10:48 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
moebo Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/15/11
Posts: 11
I understand some people use flash cards and some don't. "Whatever works..." After reading the interesting discussion above I believe I will add them to my son's practice. I am quite sure he will love competing with his mother in this arena. I'm also quite sure that in no time at all, he will happily defeat me on the timed drills (and-- ah yes-- learn the notes/intervals et cetera at the same time). Thank you to all.

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#1774995 - 10/22/11 03:43 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Luke in ChiTown]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Luke in ChiTown


Personally, I think sight-reading is the MOST important SKILL I can teach my students IF my ultimate goal is that they will continue enjoying making music at the piano for the rest of their lives.


Personally, I agree 100 percent.

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#1775044 - 10/22/11 09:13 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: landorrano]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: landorrano
Originally Posted By: Luke in ChiTown


Personally, I think sight-reading is the MOST important SKILL I can teach my students IF my ultimate goal is that they will continue enjoying making music at the piano for the rest of their lives.


Personally, I agree 100 percent.


I agree sight reading is important...but The most important skill in piano? I can think of several things that trump that, like learning how to play expressively so that what they feel can come through the piano, good technique so they are able to play whatever they want pain-free, exposure to all styles and different composers so that they can come to love classical music (which I feel is among the most beautiful music around, and which also is the most demanding technically).

Sight reading will help a student learn a piece faster and not get bogged down with reading through something note-by-note slowly. But true enjoyment from playing (IMO) doesn't come from being able to just sit down and play, but to work on a piece, really learn it well and be able to express your own feelings through it. One can sight read expressively, but it's always much more expressive when you don't have to really read it anymore and you can focus on how you want it to sound. I really don't know if it's what I would put at the top of the list.
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#1775190 - 10/22/11 02:37 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
sonataplayer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 58
Loc: New Hampshire
I have a question for all of you who have remarked that 1-2 pieces assigned per week is not enough. I have always made it a point to go over each piece I assign to a student during the lesson, so that I am sure that they will practice it correctly and not come back to me next week having practiced using incorrect rhythm, bad fingering, etc., etc. -- all of which has to be corrected during the lesson and usually results in the student needing to spend additional time on the piece.

When you have the students working on four or more pieces at a time, how do you even get through all of them in a 1/2 hour lesson? Or don't you have them play all of them every week.

I had one student come to me recently whose former teacher had assigned several pieces each week. I told him that I usually stuck to one or two, and he breathed a sigh of relief because he said that he often had trouble practicing his pieces correctly with his old teacher because she hadn't taken the time to go over the piece with him before it was assigned.

I've been teaching for 13 years, and I think I am pretty good at running an "efficient" lesson, i.e., keeping the students focused on what we're working on,keeping chatting to a minimum, etc. but I would find it impossible to go over 3-4 pieces during a 1/2 hour lesson. So, I'm really curious as to how you guys do it.

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#1775196 - 10/22/11 02:57 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: sonataplayer]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5415
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: sonataplayer
I have a question for all of you who have remarked that 1-2 pieces assigned per week is not enough.

Of course, it depends on the student! I have some students who can't do much more than ONE freakin' piece (8 bars) per week. I literally have to make sure they pressed down all the right notes before I let them go home and practice on their own (if they practice at all). These are students whose parents also don't take piano very seriously.

The assiduous students deserve more pieces. 7-8 short pieces for them will be just right for a week's worth of work. 3-4 pieces if they are intermediate and above, and obviously they will just work on parts of each piece, unless they're testing.

And then there's a wide range of students between the two extremes. I adjust their workload according to their practice habits and musical inclinations.
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#1775200 - 10/22/11 03:16 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: sonataplayer]
Minniemay Offline
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: sonataplayer

When you have the students working on four or more pieces at a time, how do you even get through all of them in a 1/2 hour lesson?


Well, the trick is teaching 45-minute lessons. smile Imo, 30 minutes just isn't enough time to do everything I need to do with a student.
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#1775277 - 10/22/11 05:25 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Minniemay]
christineka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 329
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Originally Posted By: sonataplayer

When you have the students working on four or more pieces at a time, how do you even get through all of them in a 1/2 hour lesson?


Well, the trick is teaching 45-minute lessons. smile Imo, 30 minutes just isn't enough time to do everything I need to do with a student.


I believe in 1 hour lessons past the first year. There's more to piano than just playing it. Ear training, theory, and composition are important too.
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#1775485 - 10/23/11 01:44 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: christineka]
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5415
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: christineka
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Originally Posted By: sonataplayer

When you have the students working on four or more pieces at a time, how do you even get through all of them in a 1/2 hour lesson?


Well, the trick is teaching 45-minute lessons. smile Imo, 30 minutes just isn't enough time to do everything I need to do with a student.


I believe in 1 hour lessons past the first year. There's more to piano than just playing it. Ear training, theory, and composition are important too.


Try explaining this to parents who refuse to pay for anything longer than a 30-minute lesson, even for their kids in Level 5.
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#1775605 - 10/23/11 10:22 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
Minniemay Offline
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Registered: 06/07/09
Posts: 1702
Loc: CA
I don't offer 30 minute lessons, period. No explaining necessary. They don't get to pick an option that doesn't exist.
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#1775745 - 10/23/11 03:11 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Minniemay]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
I don't offer 30 minute lessons, period. No explaining necessary. They don't get to pick an option that doesn't exist.


Yup, I agree. Or at least I did when I had more students than I needed and knew if I lost any by changing my policy to not doing 30 minutes lessons I could replace them. Now that I'm starting all over in a new state, I am finding that I have to compromise some things for an economy that is more affected and kids that are even more overbooked.
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#1775781 - 10/23/11 04:39 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: AZNpiano]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: AZNpiano
Originally Posted By: christineka
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
Originally Posted By: sonataplayer

When you have the students working on four or more pieces at a time, how do you even get through all of them in a 1/2 hour lesson?


Well, the trick is teaching 45-minute lessons. smile Imo, 30 minutes just isn't enough time to do everything I need to do with a student.


I believe in 1 hour lessons past the first year. There's more to piano than just playing it. Ear training, theory, and composition are important too.


Try explaining this to parents who refuse to pay for anything longer than a 30-minute lesson, even for their kids in Level 5.


They probably have to get their Starbucks every morning - You know, that coffee adds up.

I wonder, would it be absolutely inappropriate to have in a studio policy ... "The teacher has the full right to trump the parent when it comes to the lesson length financed. If the student is obviously (stress obviously) advancing, then a 30 minute lesson is just no longer practical to piano studies"

Perhaps I should test it out first? smile
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#1775782 - 10/23/11 04:42 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Minniemay]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Minniemay
I don't offer 30 minute lessons, period. No explaining necessary. They don't get to pick an option that doesn't exist.


Goodness, I love this!

OR, what I like to do, is encourage parents with very young children to take more than one lesson a week.

I don't understand why one lesson a week is always the 'norm'. Kids go to school 5 days out of 7 and parents think their child can learn successfully only seeing a teacher ONE time a week for only 30 minutes!? It's insane.

I think I'll adopt your idea about not even offering 30 minute lessons soon enough - 6 more slots I have to fill before I really start testing my families to see what I can get away with lol
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#1775812 - 10/23/11 05:43 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Morodiene]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4738
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
I agree sight reading is important...but The most important skill in piano? I can think of several things that trump that, like learning how to play expressively so that what they feel can come through the piano, good technique so they are able to play whatever they want pain-free, exposure to all styles and different composers so that they can come to love classical music (which I feel is among the most beautiful music around, and which also is the most demanding technically).

I understood "sight-reading" to mean "reading". I have noticed that many people put sight-reading and reading in two different universes, as if there is no connection. In fact, the quicker a student can sight-read, the quicker that same student will read, in general, and that means quicker learning. We can't play music we can't read, unless we are playing by ear, and we can't memorize what we can't play.
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#1775820 - 10/23/11 05:54 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Kreisler]
Gary D. Online   content
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Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4738
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Kreisler

Yes. I have students "play and say" the note on the card. I do this for two reasons - it gives me feedback on both naming notes and finding them on the keyboard, and I'm a firm believer in connecting the brain, hands, and mouth together.

thumb
I don't use flash cards because I use a keyboard chart, but the real point is what you said above. There are "circles on the page" that have names, and there are "these things we press" that have names. I don't know if I get names from the keys on the piano or from the page, because those two things are linked in my brain. I can't look at a note on a page without instantly seeing the key it belongs to, and that is true just as well for large chords or the sweep of a scale/run.

We all know that when we master these things, we can't name notes at a fraction of the speed that we play them. It would be like reading from a book (language) and trying to spell out every word while reading. It would be absurd. But we as teachers know that all sorts of wonky things go wrong if the names are not mastered and made 100% automatic.
Originally Posted By: Kreisler

A side benefit is that once students are used to saying something and playing at the same time, counting aloud becomes much easier, too.

Again: thumb
And that's exactly what I say to my students if they complain about saying note names will playing either hand alone (as they are mastering the letters). I tell them saying something while playing trains them to be able to say SOMETHING while playing, and I explain to them that this is why it is so easy for them to count. If they are used to saying "F A E G", while playing those keys, it is often easier for them to say "one two three four".

I spend the first 10 minutes of EVERY lesson doing note-name drills, using students music, hands separate, until I know that my students have entirely absorbed the names. But I always let them repeat anything they have played, saying notes, without saying anything, with one condition: if they miss anything, they have to correct it and TELL me what it is. smile


Edited by Gary D. (10/23/11 05:56 PM)
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#1777636 - 10/26/11 04:28 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Gary D.]
landorrano Offline
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Registered: 02/26/06
Posts: 2457
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Gary D.

I spend the first 10 minutes of EVERY lesson doing note-name drills, using students music, hands separate, until I know that my students have entirely absorbed the names. But I always let them repeat anything they have played, saying notes, without saying anything, with one condition: if they miss anything, they have to correct it and TELL me what it is. smile


Originally Posted By: Gary D.

That sets up the minor points: every lesson we WILL check the letter names, while playing, of some piece, usually short, LH and RH separate until I am satisified that the notes on the page/keys on the piano are linked and absorbed.

No one gets to pass on that. Not someone seven, and not someone 70.

We WILL count one short piece or one page, every week, until I know that a strong rhythm sense has been absorbed and mastered.

No piece will be started from the beginning until I say so. If I tell someone to play this or that section, or this or that measure, that's what is going to happen.

There are other things like that.


As a parent of a student, pretty deeply involved with my daughter's musical studies, I can't say enough good about this approch. And I am curious as to the "other things like that."

In a number of European countries, including France and Spain, beginning students typically have a half-hour instrumental lesson every week, and two hours of reading class. These classes mix students of various instruments, and often of various ages. These reading classes continue for many years. The students also participate in a choir.

Obviously, these classes aren't limited to simple note recognition.

My 11 year-old daughter is in her 5th year. Among other things they are reading the 3rd-line alto C-clef, the 4th line tenor C-clef, vertical reading and chordal patterns on the grand staff, harmonic analysis, dictations in two voices.

Years ago she learned to beat out the measure with her hand like a conductor while reading, and when there are difficulties in her instrumental lesson ( she's left the piano for trumpet this year, a two or two-and-a-half hour group lesson ) the teacher asks the student to read outloud and/or to sing from the score, notes and rhythm, always while beating out the measure. He insists that the student know what he has to play before he plays it.

Reading classes are mostly in municipal music schools, although there are private studios that have group or individual lessons following this same approach. Most kids who study an instrument with a private teacher eventually enroll in a reading class. It is not rare that parents of young music students enroll themselves even if they do not play an instrument.

I am not sure that there is really a point in recounting all of this. But I have to admit that I am very enthousiastic about the fact that in general reading is given such importance here.

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#1778348 - 10/27/11 07:03 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: landorrano]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4738
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: landorrano

And I am curious as to the "other things like that."


1) No one performs anywhere from memory until they have total success playing in front of people 3-5 times.

2) I don't spend one second drilling from memory until I am SURE that memory is not REPLACING reading. smile

3) I won't teach dynamics until students can play one hand loud and the other soft. (Watch other members stone me for that last statement.)
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#1778428 - 10/27/11 10:02 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3153
Loc: Maine
Gary D, why would #3 be a stonable (stoneable?) statement?
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#1778655 - 10/28/11 09:08 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Gary D.]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11406
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: landorrano

And I am curious as to the "other things like that."


1) No one performs anywhere from memory until they have total success playing in front of people 3-5 times.

2) I don't spend one second drilling from memory until I am SURE that memory is not REPLACING reading. smile

3) I won't teach dynamics until students can play one hand loud and the other soft. (Watch other members stone me for that last statement.)


I don't know about stoning, but I really don't understand. Wouldn't you have to teach them dynamics in order for them to play it? Or do you think students naturally come to learn to play forte and piano?
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#1779068 - 10/28/11 07:52 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Morodiene]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4738
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

I don't know about stoning, but I really don't understand. Wouldn't you have to teach them dynamics in order for them to play it? Or do you think students naturally come to learn to play forte and piano?

Because when BOTH hands play f, it sounds insensitive, all loud. When both hands play p, it sounds timid. When both hands play mf, it sounds average. Since I get to hands together very early, the first thing I stress is how to make one hand loud while the other is soft. Once students can do that, they can do just about anything with dnynamics, because it is really not only harder but also 100% necessary to play anything in a way that does not work.

There are a few exceptions, of course. Now and then block dynamics work well, and I do teach that concept. But not anything subtle. Not cresc. and dim., before teaching balance between the hands. smile
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#1779133 - 10/28/11 10:26 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Gary D.]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
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Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Morodiene

I don't know about stoning, but I really don't understand. Wouldn't you have to teach them dynamics in order for them to play it? Or do you think students naturally come to learn to play forte and piano?

Because when BOTH hands play f, it sounds insensitive, all loud. When both hands play p, it sounds timid. When both hands play mf, it sounds average. Since I get to hands together very early, the first thing I stress is how to make one hand loud while the other is soft. Once students can do that, they can do just about anything with dnynamics, because it is really not only harder but also 100% necessary to play anything in a way that does not work.

There are a few exceptions, of course. Now and then block dynamics work well, and I do teach that concept. But not anything subtle. Not cresc. and dim., before teaching balance between the hands. smile


OK, you talked your way out of stoning there, but I reserve my stone for a later time. :P
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#1779776 - 10/30/11 08:18 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
just some thoughts...

i really like one hour lessons and really appreciate parents who recognize that they are valuable.

jmo but i hate the Fabien and Bastien books.. they seem so marketed to make money for the publishers.

I teach from many sources but i am surprised to tell you I really like the Suzuki books for younger students. I don't rely on the CD's.

i suspect my 10 year old will be really great one day.. and i treat her lessons as grooming for her next teacher. She has perfect family support, a knowledge base of performers and composers. I am introducing the notion of composing to her.. showing her how chord progressions can be changed, and showing her how to improvise a melody.. we don't spend a lot of time on this.. I'm just giving her ideas of how to spend 'nonpractice' time on the piano. She came in with a delightful piece of staccato notes in fifths above the chords Dm, Am, Em and Dm.. it sounded so good... and it was so simple. i adore her. Her older sister came back and will restart lessons.

My one problem is that I personally do not like romantic composers.. Debussey and the like. I really should learn how to teach... but there is so much to practice on the organ. i love reading this forum tho.. i learn so much, and thank you.

I personally am certainly not set in stone and have few parameters that i establish for students. they are all different and learn differently. I love it when a student actually starts really practicing because they love it.
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#1779797 - 10/30/11 09:02 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: apple*]
Morodiene Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11406
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: apple*

My one problem is that I personally do not like romantic composers.. Debussey and the like. I really should learn how to teach... but there is so much to practice on the organ. i love reading this forum tho.. i learn so much, and thank you.

I personally am certainly not set in stone and have few parameters that i establish for students. they are all different and learn differently. I love it when a student actually starts really practicing because they love it.



Perhaps you should try playing Debussy, start listening to his music (and he is considered Impressionistic, which is kind of a style that occurred during the Romantic period), and choose something that appeals to you. Clair de Lune of course is very famous and for a reason, and might be good for you to learn to appreciate. If you don't like something, then that may rub off on your students and they may miss out on learning something they love. There is also Ravel, Satie (take a look at his Gymnopedie), Albeniz, Granados, and even some Grieg has Impressionist qualities to it (like his Nottorno).

I think it's worth the effort to figure out why these are considered great composers. Of course, you're allowed your own opinion, but if it is formed from ignorance of the music out there then that's not really being fair to yourself or your students.
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#1779868 - 10/30/11 11:53 AM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
and you get a red star for that post, Morodienne.

I am playing Clair de Lune now.. just to learn it properly.. I am a baroqist.. (how do you spell that?) .. and i know several Satie pieces, some Brahms and i actually really like Grieg.. i know they are not all romantic per se. I also like Bortkiewics. (?)

My older good student does love this period of music and i need to learn the pieces before i teach them.. so I am working at it.
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#1779966 - 10/30/11 02:59 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: apple*]
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11406
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted By: apple*
and you get a red star for that post, Morodienne.

I am playing Clair de Lune now.. just to learn it properly.. I am a baroqist.. (how do you spell that?) .. and i know several Satie pieces, some Brahms and i actually really like Grieg.. i know they are not all romantic per se. I also like Bortkiewics. (?)

My older good student does love this period of music and i need to learn the pieces before i teach them.. so I am working at it.

Oh, then why not listen/look at to Ravel's Tombeau de Couperin? It's Ravel tipping his hat to this amazing Baroque French composer and the Baroque era in general. You also might enjoy his Menuet Antique, also similar to the Tombeau pieces. smile
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#1779993 - 10/30/11 03:54 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: moebo]
LeaC Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/11
Posts: 413
Loc: USA
Although I feel somewhat guilty giving advise behind his teachers back here are some ideas to add.

There are books known as "Notespellers" that you can buy online or at most music shops. They are written for all levels. The neat thing about these worksheets is that you can make numerous copies of each sheet and use it multiple times(alternate sheets)as the student "forgets" the series of notes (Of course, they may start to learn the pattern after awhile.) This may be an unobtrusive way to help your child with his reading. People who tend to memorize quickly and avoid note reading do need special care if they are going to acquire good reading skills. A balance is always what is needed. A good reader needs to be taught listening skills, likewise, a person who tends to play by ear needs to be kept solidly on the path of learning to read well.

As someone who uses the Suzuki method (certified, not just using the repertoire), it became necessary to develop a failsafe way to teach reading. While the ear is cultivated in this method, it is essential to never compromise the student's ability to read. Now, I blend in the Suzuki emphasis on ear development with everyone. So, playing by ear or memorization isn't a bad thing, but it can become lop-sided if careful attention isn't given to reading.


Edited by LeaC (10/30/11 06:15 PM)
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#1780002 - 10/30/11 04:25 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: LeaC]
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4738
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: LeaC

People who tend to memorize quickly and avoid note reading do need special care if they are going to acquire good reading skills. A balance is always what is needed. A good reader needs to be taught listening skills, likewise, a person who tends to play by ear needs to be kept solidly on the path of learning to read well.

thumb
About reading: I have found that the more natural it is for young students to memorize, they more they tend to avoid reading for the simple reason that, for them, memorizing is easier. They develop from the start the habit of deciphering music, measure by measure, line by line, then speeding it up without or almost without the music. The only consistently effective thing I have found to counter this, early, is to give such students one or two new pages each week as a "challenge", to work out at home. Actually, there is another thing: continually bombard them with new music, because these really quick memorizers get things so fast that they may not be reading much at all after the second or third run-through. Transfer students are the most difficult challenge. Often they have become very good at memorizing and no longer think that reading is even a useful skill.

About developing the ear: it is terribly neglected by *some* teachers who stress reading but who do not the WHYS of how music is made. smile
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#1780098 - 10/30/11 07:25 PM Re: progression/level 10 year old [Re: Morodiene]
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Oh, then why not listen/look at to Ravel's Tombeau de Couperin smile


will do thanks
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love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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