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#1772772 - 10/18/11 09:50 AM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Ken S]
childofparadise2002 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/04
Posts: 415
It is not clear at all what is in those parents' mind when they state that they are not sure whether their kids will stick to it. Are they thinking about buying a low-end grand piano vs. a Steinway? an upright vs. a grand? An entry level upright vs. a high-end upright? Renting vs. buying? Buying a keyboard vs. acoustic? Some of those options are quite sufficient for the majority of the piano students who take piano lessons as one of many forms of cultural enrichment. It is also not necessary to stick to piano even for those who truly love music. There are many other instruments to choose from.

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#1772781 - 10/18/11 10:04 AM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Ken S]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Another pattern I notice is that after students take lessons on my Yamaha Grand for quite some time, they become quite frustrated and frequently comment on how they hate their home piano and wish they could spend a few thousand for a quality used upright.

But if your piano studio has a digital, then the students won't notice the difference.

So we could just encourage all the teachers to sell their grands and start using digitals so all the families won't be able to compare and they won't know the difference. laugh
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#1772834 - 10/18/11 11:40 AM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Dustin Sanders]
christineka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 270
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
also, what I don't understand is this mentality that in public schools, you have to do all your work.

Your parents wouldn't let you just decide to stop studying math or english or history or social studies - they wouldn't let you drop out or pass on doing art / gym homework

But if the child for even a second stops showing interest in music lessons - BAM! They're done.


Generally, school is free, piano lessons are not. I threaten my daughter who doesn't like to practice all the time because I do not like wasting my money. If she quit taking violin lessons, my family could go to Disneyland every year. I don't want to pay for my daughter to learn the violin if she is not really wanting to learn enough to practice.

As for instruments, I have my own freebie piano. I payed the piano technician $150 to service it. I think it plays quite well. Sure, it's not really nice, but it is sufficient for a student to play on. When I was a kid, my first instrument was a 66 key keyboard, unweighted keys, no pedal. After a year my dad' aunt gave me his deceased uncle's baldwin spent with featherlight keys. It was a challenge to go from my home piano to the piano teacher's piano, but I learned anyway. I did have some students who were just not progressing. They had difficulty figuring out which octave to play in. I finally asked about their piano. They were playing on a 2-octave keyboard. I learned from that to ask about the instrument in the beginning and to have certain requirements. In the first year, I believe a keyboard like what I had is okay, but after that, one should have an acoustic piano or a good keyboard. If the acoustic piano is tuned, works, and properly serviced, it should be fine.
_________________________
Christine *mom* to
dd1 age 12 violin and piano, dd2 age 10 viola and piano, ds 1 age 9 piano
dd3 age 7, ds2 age 5, and dd4 age 2

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#1772884 - 10/18/11 12:55 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Ken S]
whitfit Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 71
Loc: Toronto, Canada
I am an example of someone who would have "given up" on music lessons as a child, but it wasn't an option. I grew up playing cello (lessons from 3-16 years old) but didn't like most of it. My parents recognized I had natural abilities and made me practice every day and were very involved - I played in youth orchestras, did some performing and advanced through a number of exams. Now, I am very thankful. Having that background gave me the ability to learn other instruments later, appreciate music in a deeper way, and now as an adult piano student my ear and music training is a huge leg up.

I think it is reasonable to make a child take music lessons and practice. I would have opted out of school as well, but am now a professional with a good job. If my parents didn't insist on cello and staying in school my life would be much poorer in many senses of that word.

It is the commitment of the parents as much as of the child that matters. Kids can't make adult decisions, and that is normal: it is also why they have parents. OK, they have parents for biological reasons too. wink

Of course, some children are also committed, and those will probably progress further than I did. It is the other group I am talking about now.

On instruments, it is an unfortunate reality that they are expensive, especially for parents of lesser means (like mine). It is crucial to have a playable instrument to practice on. Lessons are for teaching and guidance, but those are wasted without practice. However, I think that part of the signal of a parent making a commitment to buy the instrument is that they are committed to the lessons, not for a signal to the child, but this commitment is correlated with the commitment to be involved, and guide (or make) the child practice.

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#1772958 - 10/18/11 02:44 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: christineka]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: christineka
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
also, what I don't understand is this mentality that in public schools, you have to do all your work.

Your parents wouldn't let you just decide to stop studying math or english or history or social studies - they wouldn't let you drop out or pass on doing art / gym homework

But if the child for even a second stops showing interest in music lessons - BAM! They're done.


Generally, school is free, piano lessons are not. I threaten my daughter who doesn't like to practice all the time because I do not like wasting my money. If she quit taking violin lessons, my family could go to Disneyland every year. I don't want to pay for my daughter to learn the violin if she is not really wanting to learn enough to practice.

As for instruments, I have my own freebie piano. I payed the piano technician $150 to service it. I think it plays quite well. Sure, it's not really nice, but it is sufficient for a student to play on. When I was a kid, my first instrument was a 66 key keyboard, unweighted keys, no pedal. After a year my dad' aunt gave me his deceased uncle's baldwin spent with featherlight keys. It was a challenge to go from my home piano to the piano teacher's piano, but I learned anyway. I did have some students who were just not progressing. They had difficulty figuring out which octave to play in. I finally asked about their piano. They were playing on a 2-octave keyboard. I learned from that to ask about the instrument in the beginning and to have certain requirements. In the first year, I believe a keyboard like what I had is okay, but after that, one should have an acoustic piano or a good keyboard. If the acoustic piano is tuned, works, and properly serviced, it should be fine.


Not sure what country you are living in, but in America, school isn't FREE. It is payed for with our tax dollars. We also have no OPT OUT for deciding to home school our children.
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1772962 - 10/18/11 02:56 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Dustin Sanders]
christineka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 270
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders


Not sure what country you are living in, but in America, school isn't FREE. It is payed for with our tax dollars. We also have no OPT OUT for deciding to home school our children.



Alright, so it isn't totally free, but you are forced to pay taxes whether you like it or not. No one is forced to pay for music lessons.

This particular daughter of mine is not gifted musically, has a strong desire to be lazy and do whatever she wants. She's even written sharps in Bach's music because that's what she wants to play, despite the fact that that's not how Bach wrote the music and it sounds awful! I do not think the world will miss her violin playing if she quits. I do want my kids to have an appreciation and understanding of music, but I will not require them to actually play an instrument.
_________________________
Christine *mom* to
dd1 age 12 violin and piano, dd2 age 10 viola and piano, ds 1 age 9 piano
dd3 age 7, ds2 age 5, and dd4 age 2

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#1772984 - 10/18/11 03:35 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Dustin Sanders]
Gary D. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 3468
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders


If you are able to finance piano lessons but are not able to finance a few hundred dollars for a decent digital, then you're in a minority here. What's with all the drama?

You don't have to be rich to spend $400 on a weighted digital keyboard and then a year or so later break down to spend $2,000 on an upright used acoustic.

Where did you come up with the figure of a $400 for a weighted DP?
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Piano Teacher

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#1772987 - 10/18/11 03:40 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Dustin Sanders]
keystring Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 7438
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
We also have no OPT OUT for deciding to home school our children.


Are you saying that you believe in your country families do not have the option of leaving the school system, and home schooling?

You may find an untapped base for finding more students among home schooled families in your area. Generally speaking these are kids who know how to work one-on-one with an adult, with families who are committed to supporting their education (otherwise why would anyone do the work load that is involved in homeschooling?)

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#1773000 - 10/18/11 04:00 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: keystring]
christineka Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/29/11
Posts: 270
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: keystring
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
We also have no OPT OUT for deciding to home school our children.


Are you saying that you believe in your country families do not have the option of leaving the school system, and home schooling?

You may find an untapped base for finding more students among home schooled families in your area. Generally speaking these are kids who know how to work one-on-one with an adult, with families who are committed to supporting their education (otherwise why would anyone do the work load that is involved in homeschooling?)


I think he was referring to opting out of educational taxes if you homeschool. (As in, if you homeschool, you still have to pay the taxes, even though your kids do not participate.) I don't mind because in my state, homeschooled kids can still participate in extra-curricular activities and the schools might provide services for a special needs homeschooled child.

I like teaching earlier in the day, which works for homeschooled children, but all the homeschooled kids had issues. The one I'm teaching now (to play bugle for a boy scout merit badge) has a mother, living her dreams out in her youngest son. She decides all the million things he is going to do, all the while he'd rather be out playing sports.


Edited by christineka (10/18/11 04:02 PM)
_________________________
Christine *mom* to
dd1 age 12 violin and piano, dd2 age 10 viola and piano, ds 1 age 9 piano
dd3 age 7, ds2 age 5, and dd4 age 2

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#1773019 - 10/18/11 04:38 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Gary D.]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders


If you are able to finance piano lessons but are not able to finance a few hundred dollars for a decent digital, then you're in a minority here. What's with all the drama?

You don't have to be rich to spend $400 on a weighted digital keyboard and then a year or so later break down to spend $2,000 on an upright used acoustic.

Where did you come up with the figure of a $400 for a weighted DP?


Ebay .....

$700 for a pretty damn nice digital at Music and Arts by my studio as well. So a used digital of that quality would be about $400.
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1773025 - 10/18/11 04:45 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Dustin Sanders]
Gary D. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 3468
Loc: South Florida
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
Ebay .....

$700 for a pretty damn nice digital at Music and Arts by my studio as well. So a used digital of that quality would be about $400.


Hmm. Ebay in my mind is risky. You can get great deals, but you can get hosed too.
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Piano Teacher

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#1773135 - 10/18/11 08:25 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Gary D.]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Gary D.
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
Ebay .....

$700 for a pretty damn nice digital at Music and Arts by my studio as well. So a used digital of that quality would be about $400.


Hmm. Ebay in my mind is risky. You can get great deals, but you can get hosed too.


Better than Craigslist. laugh

I think it's pretty safe to use Ebay as long as you research the seller - Check their reviews / ratings / number of sells, etc. Don't buy from someone that is new and doesn't yet have ratings. Obvious stuff like that.
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1773154 - 10/18/11 09:09 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: JessicaB]
piano joy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/11
Posts: 596
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: JessicaB
The answer is simply: and you won't know if they will stick with it, but you can some things to help the process:

1) find the best teacher so that the kids make progress and feel like they have accomplished something (but if the child and teacher are a bad match, change);
2) listen to classical/piano music so that they know what really good playing sounds like and what pieces can be options if they stick with it;
3) encourage them by being at their lessons and listening to their practice (without taking over their practice);
4) make sure whatever instrument they have is in working order (keys don't stick, pedal works, it holds its tune reasonably well);
5) let them pick their pieces whenever possible;
6) understand that there will be times when practicing may not be their first priority (even if you want it to be);
7) let them explore the keyboard (compose, start a rock band, improvise);
8) encourage some ensemble playing (jazz band, ensembles, chamber music).


Sorry, I am just a parent of a piano student and piano student myself.


Back to the OP's initial question and to add just one item to the above:

Tell the parents to lavish praise on their kid when he plays a piece or any new little thing he's learned- and do the same when he plays for guests.
My son's 9 YO best friend asks ME if he can play a song for me every time he comes over and I always tell him how much I enjoyed his playing and how good it sounds- he just beams with pride.
Unfortunately, I did not get that as a kid- perfectionist father- and I really believe that was one reason (out of a few) that I quit while in high school. To this day, I really do not enjoy playing for my family- they are my worst critics and I don't think that's the way it should be.....it's OK now, I'm a big girl smile

Just my two cents worth...
_________________________
I don't care too much for money. For money can't buy me love.
-the Beatles




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#1773549 - 10/19/11 01:41 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: piano joy]
Mr. Peabody Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 120
Loc: Philly suburbs, Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: piano joy
Originally Posted By: JessicaB
The answer is simply: and you won't know if they will stick with it, but you can some things to help the process:

1) find the best teacher so that the kids make progress and feel like they have accomplished something (but if the child and teacher are a bad match, change);
2) listen to classical/piano music so that they know what really good playing sounds like and what pieces can be options if they stick with it;
3) encourage them by being at their lessons and listening to their practice (without taking over their practice);
4) make sure whatever instrument they have is in working order (keys don't stick, pedal works, it holds its tune reasonably well);
5) let them pick their pieces whenever possible;
6) understand that there will be times when practicing may not be their first priority (even if you want it to be);
7) let them explore the keyboard (compose, start a rock band, improvise);
8) encourage some ensemble playing (jazz band, ensembles, chamber music).


Sorry, I am just a parent of a piano student and piano student myself.


Back to the OP's initial question and to add just one item to the above:

Tell the parents to lavish praise on their kid when he plays a piece or any new little thing he's learned- and do the same when he plays for guests.
My son's 9 YO best friend asks ME if he can play a song for me every time he comes over and I always tell him how much I enjoyed his playing and how good it sounds- he just beams with pride.
Unfortunately, I did not get that as a kid- perfectionist father- and I really believe that was one reason (out of a few) that I quit while in high school. To this day, I really do not enjoy playing for my family- they are my worst critics and I don't think that's the way it should be.....it's OK now, I'm a big girl smile

Just my two cents worth...


I largely second the above about praise but I do believe that parents can go overboard sometimes to their detriment. Not that lavish praise is unwarranted, rather that the form of praise should evolve as the student progresses.

When my boys first started, we did praise them for their hard work and performances. Yes it can be quite gushing but for small children, being subtle and nuanced with praise doesn't usually work. However, as they progressed, I think that it was important to tailor the praise with the child, i.e. being more specific about what was notable, praiseworthy. Being lavish is nice and will work for a while with kids, especially when young but as they advance if you keep disproportionately offering effusive praise when then they could begin to just discount any praise that you offer.

My sons are teens now, and I like listening to them play ( even when they practice). Just the other day, one of my sons was practicing "Tramerei." To an uneducated ear as mine, it seemed like a nice, simple melody. My son says it is a really hard piece. Then, just in the middle of practice, he had one moment where it just sounded wonderous. I went downstairs and told him that his rather unsophisticated dad finally realized how beautiful the song was and how I now had better appreciation of why it was a difficult song to begin to master. He felt the moment too. I think unscripted praise worthy moments can be very impactful.

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#1774194 - 10/20/11 03:43 PM Re: "We don't know if they'll stay interested in piano..." [Re: Ken S]
Ken S Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/01/09
Posts: 41
Loc: San Diego, CA
From myself and our staff; we're thankful for so many insightful replies! I promise that your feedback will be put to good use; getting more families involved with music and hopefully, convincing parents of the value of investing in a good piano and a great piano teacher for their child. It means a lot more coming from you than from me!
_________________________
25-year piano industry veteran, piano teacher,
Jazz piano student
Greene Music San Diego, CA
http://www.greenemusic.com
Dealer for new Steinway & Sons, Yamaha acoustic,
and Yamaha Clavinova digital pianos
http://www.myspace.com/kenschoenwetter
http://www.steinway.com/teachers/kenschoenwetter

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