I apologize for posting again, about a different piano, but I am still looking for a rebuilt Steinway or Mason-Hamlin in my price range. I have been looking at an ad for an 1868 Steinway D that has been restored and refinished (asking $22,000.) I have not seen it yet, but it is supposed to have new pinblock, pins, string, hammers, etc. Is a piano of this vintage a decent performance piano, or just a pretty antique? I am unfamiliar with Steinways of this vintage--is it an 85-key or 88-key? Is the geometry of these good even though changes and improvements obviously were done in the decades after? I am on a budget and this looks like a wonderful instrument but it is 143 years old, right?

It could be a perfectly acceptable instrument, but I would be very cautious dealing with such an inexpensively priced specimen. I expect a piano like this would have required a $40,000 restoration.

From Larry Fine's "The Piano Book", assuming the 1868 date is correct...the piano you're asking about is 8'5" in length, has 88 keys, and a 17-note bass section. It was most likely referred to with a style number, rather than the style letter "D". A modern "D" is 8'11 3/4" in length, has 88 keys, and a 20-note bass section. You'll be able to check the year of production with the serial number, and can contact Steinway for the original purchase information. Whether it is a decent performance piano or not will depend on the extent and quality of the rebuild.

I am still interested in this piano, and just a little concerned about the design weaknesses or playing problems that may exist in such an early piano--just barely past the square grand era. Does anyone have any experience with one like this? Here is the link to the piano: http://www.pianomart.com/buy-a-piano/ad.php?ad_id=14527

The owner has been very kind and given me a lot of details about the piano but cannot remember exactly what work was done on the action. It does have a new soundboard, pinblock, pins, strings, etc. and has been beautifully refinished in rosewood. He has not told me the serial number but says the date is 1868, which he probably was given by the rebuilder. Oh, the rebuilder is a local person with a very good reputation here so I am not worried about the work that has been completed. I just don't know if more work will be required later. I am going away for two weeks but plan to see the piano when I get back unless some of you feel that the design and/or flaws of this model would mean it would not play well and would be more of an antique than a performance-level piano. Help?

I know I am doing all the posting on this question--maybe no one knows enough about this kind of piano, but one more thought: the owner says the piano has 88 keys. I was under the impression that pianos from this era only had 85, so could the date be later than the owner thinks?

Wow, that's a beautiful piano. It looks like walnut to me and not rosewood, which is a good thing in my opinion. Also, the music desk doesn't appear to be the original one based on the look of the veneer. It does look to be in great shape. Do you have a serial number? That would tell you the year. My guess is that it is newer than 1868 but I'm not an expert. Many times a piano will have a date somewhere, such as a patent date, and that date will have nothing to do with the date of manufacture. Have you played this yourself? If not, you need to. You should also have a technician inspect it. They should be able to give you a good idea of the mechanics and their performance potential. If the highest note is C you have an 88 note keyboard, if it is A you have an 85 note keyboard. To me, it would make no difference, but it will always affect the value of the piano. When was the work done? Keep us posted, this is definitely an interesting piano.

The owner says the work was done about 2 years ago, which is pretty good, right? None of this "restored 20 years ago". The company that did it has done work for local symphony, colleges, etc. and has a great reputation. You may be right. I am not sure why I thought the piano was rosewood. Maybe it is walnut. I haven't seen it yet.

I checked the ad again and it does say rosewood in the ad, although some of the wood looks like mahogany to me. I am no expert but if I saw it in person I would know rosewood because I bought an early square piano once that was rosewood. It still had the old, "purple", finish. It was pretty but no piano to play on so I sold it.

If you re-read my original reply, you'll see the info on this. The serial number from the pianomart ad corresponds with 1868. You're best bet is to hire a technician to inspect and evaluate the piano for you. There is no way of any of us knowing what to tell you based on only photos.

According to Steinway, any piano of theirs that has had the soundboard replaced by anyone other than them, (they do not sell their soundboards), the piano is no longer a Steinway. They say it is someone's copy of a Steinway.

See: http://restoration.steinway.com/

EDIT: Here is where I got the information from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xqEXAAGzUg

Go and play the beast and if you love it, get it inspected. Yes, these pianos will need work, always, all pianos do. I imagine the price is less perhaps because it is not all "original". But who cares, the sound is what you are after.

It is a magnificent looking piano, and the price seems fair at least for the appearance of the piano.
My only reservation is that it does not have its original soundboard, but of course the replacement may be as good as the original one.
Have the piano checked by an expert, preferably with experience in vintage Steinways.

Very best of luck!

Robert.

So what's next? A nasty cease and desist lawyers letter to every rebuilder telling you that it's fraud to replace a Steinway decal on the fallboard? From what I read it's not jut the soundboard but "If it doesn’t have 12,116 genuine Steinway parts, it isn’t a Steinway". Yet a Boston or an Essex IS a Steinway. I think that having a healthy American Piano company is a grand thing, but my word, the arrogance of these people is amazing.

The piano is indeed rosewood. If the restoration was done well, it's certainly worth checking out.

Take care,

Steve

All of you, thanks. I am not overly concerned about a new soundboard. In fact, I would be more worried if it was the original 143 year old soundboard, really. If done right, I have seen pianos that sounded wonderful with a replaced one, so my concerns are more about any known weaknesses this early design has playing-wise or sound-wise. Obviously, I will have to play the piano and have it looked at. I just wanted information about the design, the era, etc. Thanks to all of you for the information.

You could also contact the rebuilder and get all the specifics as to what was done.

Since the price for a newly rebuilt D is three or four times that amount(at least in NYC), it could be a great bargain if it checks out by a knowledgable tech.

The price seems too good to true, however. The only reason I can think of for such a low price is there is something undesirable in the design of this very early model. But I certainly do not know that is the case.

The simple fact is that an 1868 "style IV concert grand" on the one hand is no real "D" even if Steinway often likes to name ancestors to "fitting" actual sizes, and on the other hand most probably the piano is not original, so "technics-historically compromized", related to the mechanism: "not yet capstan screws" would be original but a mechanism like this is most probably exchanged during the nearly 150 years. And spare parts for ancient mechanisms are not available - would have to be built in handcraft work, extremely expensive..

1868 also the famous tubular frame was not yet standard in Steinway pianos. Most probably it will have got this later, as the very most Steinway grands got a refurbishment rel. to the mechanism, - but then it is not "original ex works" inside.

On the other hand, if these features would be still inside originally/in ex-works cond., then the piano would not be playable like modern grands.

So it might be a wonderful old piano, but related to the fact that this concert grand owns an open pinblock, it will probably take a lot more care than normal concert grands. The tuning cycles will need to be speeded up, two tunings a year will not be enough.

The sound will be another one compared with actual Steinway designs (..since 1875 / 1878 / 1886..), as a capo d'astro bar and the duplex scale system is completely missing. Probably the piano will show a full, warm sound comparable to a Bluthner grand et cetera. But with not so many ovetones like a full duplex grand of modern design.

I personally would doubt the soundboard exchange from another POV: the original old one was designed by Henry S jr who was a soundboard genius. The wood once was white spruce from the Appalachians, a source which was exhausted ca. 1920. Since then soundboards are told as being designed to last 50 yrs. European tech approach would be, try to preserve and repair the original old soundboard if ever possible.. <duck & cover..>

And, but if it is yet exchanged, is there a cheap "DIY" soundboard inside of doubtful source, or an original Steinway soundboard made to the former "Henry" specifications..?..

This piano may be a wonderful one - but I would not recommend it as the first and only instrument, besides a chance that a potential new owner likes to tinker much at a super old grand.. (with a competence to do so...) If anybody likes to own a wonderful piece of furniture, or if anybody has a modern grand as a first piano, then this super old Steinway grand could be a very good idea to buy.

Questions and questions.. Either it is a museal piece of furniture nice to look at, or it is a piano w. some complications and compromises rel. to technical history and authenticity, or it is a real gem of the ancient times w. original mechanism inside - but then cannot be played a like a modern one.

So it might be a gorgeous second piano for a real piano lover and/or furniture specialst who yet owns another great grand for daily playing..

The price is without doubt a great offer - assumed that the technical status is a "good playing cond." There normally are no playable Steinway concert grands below of 35.000 USD - besides the well known "core pianos" for an immediate rebuilding/restoring process.

The one only modern feature which this concert grand has in ex-works-cond.: 88 keys which they have since 1863.

A modern concert grand starts 1876 - the Centennial D.

Other modern concepts start 1878, A and B models, since 1892 w. 88 keys. C (88key s series) started 1886, and the "actual" D is from 1884 - if anybody denies to own a piano w. "constructed case" i.e. versus a rim made by glueing strips.

I think all elder Steinway pianos are "for specialists" and "deep lovers and knowers of ancient pianos" only.


Sorry to say this. Better to know this in andvance, than regretting a buy w. compromises and/or a lot of sorrows, "blood, sweat and tears" afterwards.

I have seen 3 plates from this vintage with cracked plates
all in the same size you are considering.

BerndAB is correct as for this ancient Steinway action design. It is refered to as a "rocker action" It has no capstans and proprietory action parts that are not available from anybody anywhere, Steinway or aftermarket. No demand therefore no supply.
So ...either one rebuilt the existing 140 year old parts which is what one might do if restoring an antique or modernized the geometry to be compatible with somebody's aftermarket parts not necessarily Steinway. If I remember correctly the original parts are very thin so someone would have to taper the NEW parts considerably etc. Who would do this in a restoration other than a Smithsonian commisioned project.
A new keyset is possible but "let's get real on this piano".

Actually I like the early vintage Steinways with no duplex bars as in the early 1900's Steinway O.

I don't facilitate restorations on these pianos or square grands in that I am not a collector and I'd like to eventualy sell restored Steinways that perform at a high performance level. I'm not very knowledgeable on these pianos but know enough to know.

Thank you all for the sage advice. I suspected I might not be looking at a piano that would perform to top expectations due to its older design. I think I will pass on this although it might be a great find for a collector. I need something to play on a lot each day.