Hi All,

Have downloaded the trial version of Pianoteq (Play) and it seems to be quite good... Before I shell out €99 however, I thought it might be worth checking there's not something else out there that I should consider.

All I'm really after is a decent piano sound...

I'm a piano beginner (just starting grade 3) so don't think I need anything more than a fairly simple plug-in-and-play, but it does seem that something like Pianoteq offers a degree tone, and feel, that improves on my Kawai CL-36, and that will help me as a I learn... Do you more experienced types agree with that?

Is there anything out there that does a similar/better job? I gather there are two (more?) schools here - modelling and sampling... Don't have an opinion either way about these - Pros? Cons?

Thanks in advance.

What did you think about the sound of Pianoteq?

I find it rather unconvincing - cold, eerie, somewhat metallic. Like a synthesised piano (which it is I suppose). But I think Pianoteq have got the behaviours right and that could make it a very satisfying thing to play if your priority is not the best accuracy in the sonic replication of a real grand piano - for this you need sampling I'm afraid.

The future must be with modelling but the sonics aren't quite right yet in my opinion. For the time being compromise is necessary.

I'd be mildly surprised if you could improve on the built-in sound of your CL-36 for less than the $99 that PT costs. There are plenty of free sample players, but you'd still have to feed them with samples, and getting decent ones for little money is difficult.

I dispute that sampling offers better accuracy of replication in the general sense. It might be true for a single note, but (so far as I know) sampling systems don't deal well with sympathetic resonance, which is a substantial part of the piano sound.

Hi

I’m just a novice but like you I have a Kawai CL36 and find that Pianoteq Play works very well with it. I also own a number of sampled pianos (Synthogy Ivory II Italian Grand, Galaxy Vintage D and Garritan Authorized Steinway Basic). Of the latter I like the Vintage D the best in terms of authenticity, richness and playability but Pianoteq is far superior to it and the others in terms of key and pedal response. To my mind Pianoteq’s other main virtues are the elimination of the room colouration inherent in sampled instruments and accurate sustain characteristics at lower and middling velocities.

Until recently I didn’t care much for Pianoteq’s tone but I’ve found a satisfactory solution by splitting the keyboard range in order to take advantage of certain models’ strengths (I use Reaper as a VST host and midi note filter, and a combination of Pianoteq’s C3, M3 and Pleyel models for the bass, mid and treble regions respectively).

Whatever Pianoteq model you use, I’ve found that it’s important to set volume at a reasonable level: if Pianoteq sounds plasticky or synthy and doesn’t seem to have the tonal and dynamic range of an acoustic piano the level is probably too low). However, I agree that it’s not quite there in terms of authenticity as yet.

Sampletekk offer relatively inexpensive sample libraries, however I believe you will also need Kontakt in order to use them fully.

There's also Alicia's Keys, which I believe is rather competitively priced.

Cheers,
James
x

I'll second what EssBrace said I love the playability of Pianoteq but hate its sonic quality and to me personally that's a deal breaker. I would rather go for Ivory Italian Grand II despite being twice the price.

I second CyberGene.

I have owned Pianoteq for about eighteen months, and in that time have played it about half-a-dozen times. Every time I hook up to it, the session lasts about five minutes before I have to quit due to its strange and sterile sound. For some reason the sound just grates on me. Like others, I admire its playability, but for me that's just not enough. I haven't spent any time trying to see if layering it with a hardware sound will improve it, but I suppose there might be some potential there.

That said, I'm eagerly awaiting the nest major revision, as I really think that modeling represents the way forward for DPs.

Although I haven't played the V-piano, I like its sound more than that from Pianoteq by listening to the mp3 demos. Strangely (or logically) both posses that unrealistically metallic ringing/buzz after the initial attack but that's much less apparent on the V-piano demos. Of course one is $99 and the other is $4999. Anyway, I am deeply convinced in the piano modelling approach and I also believe the next versions of Pianoteq and V-Piano will rock!

Regarding Pianoteq ... agreed. I like Ivory much better.
Sampling sound beats modeling by a large margin.

Pianoteq is awesome, nothing come even close like Truepiano, Ivory etc. I have evaluated them all. Since I bought pianoteq I love it more and more every day. I play it through RD700GX.

People are so polarized when talking about Pianoteq. Some are loving it and other can't stand playing it for more than 5 minutes

Wow... Thanks everybody... Once again though it does seem to come down to our old friend "personal preference".

I guess I should at least try some of these sampling systems... Maybe I can find a retailer where I can try some out... Or maybe not (one big advantage of Pianoteq is that I can download the trial and see what it's like with my own setup)...

Is Pianoteq the only modelling system - all the others mentioned are sample based...?

of course not - try Truepiano (40 days demo available), old free CV piano by tascam all are modeled.

Sampled piano maybe are warmer but the dynamics suck, you can hear looping etc etc. They were better up to sometime ago.
Now with new Pianoteq no contest for me. Way more expressive.

The only other pure modelled piano is the Roland V-Piano which is not a software but rather a complete hardware solution in a stage piano form-factor.

I think TruePianos are supposedly a hybrid between modelling and samples.

I completely agree about the disappointing lack of playable demos of the sample based pianos. There are "ways" if you know what I mean. Not that I am a proponent of software piracy but sometimes there's no other way. I was about to purchase Galaxy Vintage D at one moment but there was no demo available. So, I found a "way" and I am glad I did because I realized the re-pedalling model they implemented was far from being useful and realistic and that's critical for me. Someone would call me exacting but re-pedalling and half-pedalling is critical for me. From the sample-based pianos it is only Ivory and Galaxy which support both features. And it is only Ivory which is realistic. Strangely, all the simple short-sampled digital pianos support that perfectly.

This might apply to the native sounds in digital pianos ...
But it hardly applies to the PC-based samplers. The samplers have no noticeable looping and WAY more dynamics, compared to the internal tone generators.

I use Ivory regularly. (I'm also trying Galaxy ... I'm having tech problems with it right now, so I don't yet have an opinion.)

Ivory sounds like a piano. I like both the Steinway and the Bosie (but not so much the Yamaha).

I've also tried Pianoteq and True Pianos (demos of both). I think True Pianos must have more than one piano available, but the only one provided in the demo was of poor quality.

The Pianoteq demo sounded better than True Pianos, but was still very dead and synthetic sounding.

I think they have a long way to go before claiming that modeling beats sampling. (Note: I've not yet had any chance to try the Vpiano.)

I would definitely suggest Galaxy Vintage D. It's only $145 and the sound quality is exceptionally better than PianoTeq and almost all other software pianos. I've tried a bunch and it's by far my favorite, mainly because it is so expressive, responsive, and playable. Half pedaling and key-off samples are very well implemented. Nice long, non-looped, warm, nuanced, 24-bit samples. 13 velocity layers. You can practically feel the soundboard resonating. Quite easy on the hardware too. Very difficult to tell that you are not playing a real, high end piano (assuming you have very nice speakers or headphones). Vintage D has basically spoiled me for all other pianos, acoustic and digital.

Galaxy, Ivory, EW pianos, Garritan. All great, I'm sure, but much more pricey than just Vintage D, which does not require the purchase of other software to use it, by the way. And Ivory and EW pianos require an extra $50 or something for an iLok.

I would avoid Native instruments, Ivory 1.x, and other earlier (or budget) software pianos. Anything that does not implement half pedaling well will end up being less playable, in my experience.

If you want something more modeled, try truepianos. It sounds better than pianoteq. Not as tweakable, but much more listenable in my opinion.

don't agree, you probably have tried older version of pianoteq which was not great. The newest is a real difference.

How many dynamic levels you have in your ivory if I may ask?

p.s.
BTWI agree, Truepiano is much worse then new pianoteq, completely without character.

The Pianoteq trial was v3.6.7. Yes, it's a big improvement over the first one I tried way back ... version 2. I was expecting the new one to sound more piano-ish. But it's barely better (in some respects) than my Clavinova ... Pianoteq has more transparency. And it's worse in others ... sounds less like a piano.

True Pianos was long ago, more than a year ... I don't remember the version number.

Ivory is v1.5. I usually play with the 10-level samples. I mostly use the Bosie, but the Steinway is good, too.

so don't you think or feel 10 levels is not enough for expressive dynamic play? In pianoteq you have actually full spectrum 127 levels. huge difference.

In my search for the best alternative to my keyboard piano's built-in sounds, I listened today to Garritan's Authorized piano, Synthogy Ivory II, Galaxy Pianos & EastWest. To my ears all of them have special qualities, and outstanding sound compared with what's built-in to my DP. To my taste the Garritan in high resolution (professional version) and the Galaxy pianos would get a slight preference.

I do, however, find it surprising that none of them (as far as I can see??) have playable demos for download. To me paying $200 - $400 for something I have not been able to try out is, well, some money. Do one of you know if playable demos are available or do the companies refund the purchase price within e.g. 2 weeks should I decide to not keep the product?

BTW I've been playing Pianoteq for some hours today. Again, compared with what's inside my DP it is way beyond quality-wise. Especially in terms of velocity, the ability to nuance the intensity of the keys. Comparing it to some of the sampled pianos my ears nevertheless do miss out some textures, timbres, nuances - which I would prefer everything else being equal (if possible?)

Thanks for an interesting thread :-)

Jesper

One more note - in e.g. Ivory you have color/character given since it's sampled,
in Pianoteq you have to create it on your own. You're shaping the sound as in real instrument so don't blame the piano. BTW this is the reason why sampled instruments are selling much better because people are lazy despite of fact analog or virtual analog instruments are actually way more realistic and more flexible.

In terms of modelling V-Piano sounds better than Pianoteq in my opinion - quite a lot better, especially in the bass and treble where V-Piano is impressive.

For the time being Roland's Supernatural engine provides a workable compromise for many - a combination of a sampled basis with certain modelled elements "overlaid" to reduce undesirable characteristics such as looping and audible velocity switches. But the dynamics of Supernatural can't compare with V-Piano (V-Piano very superior). SN is a good compromise though...until the next big development. A decent sample library or hardware DP with very good native sound still provides the closest sonic presentation of acoustic piano. It might be a while before sampling loses this advantage. But the day will come, without doubt.

I am not sure it's a matter of laziness. There are many custom presets for Pianoteq to download, but I always find them synthetic, dull and boring. Personally I think there is something in the way the sound is created which makes it sound this way despite the numerous parameters.

P.S. I am still waiting to hear a Pianoteq preset that sounds exactly like Ivory Steinway, or Galaxy Vintage D, etc. If you're not lazy, could you make a sound that's a full replica of any of the mentioned? That was a rhetorical question. It's just not laziness of the people using it. Otherwise Pianoteq would have killed any other software piano since long ago.

I agree - there will be many things you cannot do with Pianoteq, many ways it cannot sound due to the limitations of the basic, underlying tone. Many people have said it is impossible to create that truly woody, warm piano tone with Pianoteq and I have yet to hear any tweak that successfully rebuts this view.

Yes, in my experience (playing the demo of the latest version) PianoTeq lets you tweak the sound an amazing amount, but never sounds good. It is definitely playable in the sense that it does have 127 timbres (not counting the effect pedals, etc have) and responds nicely, but that doesn't help if none of those timbres pleases, which is my experience.

TruePianos has a demo, but it's their least pleasing piano as well. There's a youtube video of someone comparing TruePianos and PianoTeq and TruePianos sound much better.

But neither of them compares with the new, high end sampled pianos.

By the way Vintage D has 13 levels I believe. It seems like I saw somewhere that Ivory II has up to 18. Based on my experience with Vintage D I don't think number of velocity layers is a limiting factor among software piano quality. Vintage D has a very LARGE range of tonal possibilities. The more important consideration is how well half-pedaling, key off, damper noise, reverb, etc. work. For inexpensive sampled pianos, it is often not well.

Remember that we are just talking about 13 or 18 possible timbres per note for a given setting, there are still 127 volumes at which those notes come out, just as there is in PianoTeq. And each one actually sounds like a piano.

Ivory II uses blending algorithms for velocity layers so in practice it should create a smooth gradation and a slightly different timbre for each velocity 1-127. Most modern digital pianos use blending as well.

Are you talking about dynamic levels or sampling levels?

Sure, 10 dynamic levels would be marginal or worse. But 10 sampling levels is, frankly, more than enough. To have 127 levels is beyond the means of the finest pianist, and not discernable to a listener.

Pianoteq has both since it's a modeled piano. I agree with you, MacMacMac, that 10 is more than enough sampling levels. With the blending, as mentioned a second ago, you wouldn't even be able to tell if you listened really closely and were trying hard to experiment and find the level transitions.

We should remember, for comparison, that most of our digital pianos probably have 3 or 4 sampled levels.

for me dynamic level were unsatisfactory on most digital pianos except V-Piano which
was very close to pianoteq actually in that regards as well as character. You can blend
10levels of sampling but it will never be the same as original sound at that level.