Piano World Home Page Forums General Discussions Legal Issues PIANO FORUM TEN ( ELEVEN) COMMANDMENTS

In response to recent events, I am offering the following - but as suggestions only. I did not take a trip up a mountain to get these commandments. They are not written in stone. I invite everyone to offer suggestions for additions, deletions and modifications. My hope is that we can end up with a consensus e-document that would be useful to all of us and especially to newcomers. If such an e-document proves not to be so useful or desirable, we can always use the EDIT feature to delete it.

PIANO FORUM <strike>TEN</strike> ELEVEN COMMANDMENTS

1. Feel free to ask questions about anything related to pianos, but we encourage you to use the search tools first. It is quite likely that if you have a specific question, it has already been thoroughly answered in the archives.
2. Writers to this forum come and go, so the dialogue that is generated in a particular area may vary (sometimes considerably) from time to time. That is the nature of a public forum. So, if you’re not satisfied with a particular dialogue, past or present, please feel free to re-start it or to goad it in another direction.
3. If you profit in any way from the piano trade, please identify yourself and your affiliations. If not, feel free to identify yourself partially or fully or not at all.
4. If you present anything as fact, please be sure that it is indeed a fact and, whenever possible, provide sources and/or documentation. If your “facts” are based on hearsay, rumor or sentiment that’s okay, just please state that this is the case.
5. If you have an opinion to share, that’s always welcome – so long as you label it as opinion. And don’t worry that others might not share your opinion. Differences of opinion are the lifeblood of the forum.
6. If you should ever make a “mistake” (e.g., presenting as fact something that isn’t really quite a fact, or offering an opinion that was not as well thought out as it should have been), feel free to use the EDIT feature to change your post or to remove it altogether. If someone points out your “mistake” and you learned something from the response, a simple admission of this is always welcome and appreciated. We all make mistakes.
7. Shills (for dealers, manufactures, distributors, rebuilders, etc) are not welcome. They are being hunted continuously. If you are a shill, be warned: no amount of humiliation will be spared in exposing you.
8. Lurkers prowling for potential piano buyers or sellers are also not welcome. If a lurker should ever contact you, please consider it your duty as a member of or as a visitor to this forum to post information about the lurker. Also be warned that doing business with a lurker is likely to be to your disadvantage. Do so only at your own peril.
9. Any opinion that you offer about a piano, a rebuilder or a dealer that might be injurious to the manufacturer, rebuilder or dealer should always be carefully considered. Such opinions are welcome, but please know that you may be held to be personally liable for any injury that might occur.
10. It is the opinion of this forum that facts cannot be held to be libelous. Therefore, in presenting something that is, or that might be construed to be, negative about a piano, a rebuilder or a dealer, you are encouraged to use facts as opposed to opinions. However, should this be a concern, you are advised to exercise caution and/or to seek professional counsel.

11. Think Before You Post!
This is a public forum. Thousands of people visit every day. You will likely be judged by the words you write. Do not be mean-spirited, vulgar, or deceitful.

Thank you Irving for taking the time to post this carefully thoughtout document. I have one suggestion to modify this one passage. Being a usenet junkie, I think it is often better to 'correct' your post in an additional post to the original thread (on usenet you can not edit your original posts ever).

The reason I say this is because edits do not show up as new posts, where a new message does. IF one has made a serious mistake in a message, the correction should poke us in the eye as a new post bumped to the top.

I would just toss in my opinion about 'commandment #1' -

While the suggestion of using the search feature is certainly well intended and probably made to save some folks from repeating their replies, I would not let it infer that 'not' using the search before posting should be frowned upon.

I say this because, first, on my service provider, pc, the search feature here takes a very long time to get working. Second, while there may certainly be useful info gained by a search, it is only *so* current and doesn't include the input of new lurkers/posters and otherwise updated info.

Third, I don't think anyone who has a particular answer to a re-addressed question should feel obligated to answer, or they could just say there is a good answer to the query under a search. My point is only that, yes...searches are often useful to everybody, but the lack of searches before posting should not be frowned upon - no one knows what may come of a re-asked question after the passing of time/events.

Just my opinion.

Irving,

First of all, a fine job overall. I do want to quibble with number 10, however.

Libel is based upon a falsehood publicized that damages someone. By definition, a falsehood is ordinarily a deliberately false statement of fact. One is entitled to an opinion. I cannot be sued for saying "I played a Kalalahoffer piano and I hate the piano. I really do. You couldn't pay me enought to take one and I wuld rather own any other make I disliked it so much. My opinion is that the sound is miserable and action unresponsive". Now it is hard to sue someone for this as how can you prove that my statement was false? I am entitled to my opinion. On the other hand, if I said, that it "is made of flimsy materials, is has legs of luan, the soundboard is made of solid pine plywood which contains more glue than real wood, it is incapable of being properly tuned, etc." They could sue the pants off me if my "facts" were untrue. Facts, if untrue, are the basis of libel.

Best,

Steve O.

Steve,

I think you need to find a factory certified Kalalahoffer technician. This should solve all of the afore mentioned problems.

Chris, OBrother and Steve,

Thanks for the feedback. As per your suggestions, I re-wrote the following three sections. I hope that they've improved. Any further suggestions would be appreciated.

1. Feel free to ask questions about anything related to pianos but consider using the search tools first. It is quite likely that if you have a specific question, it has already been thoroughly answered in the archives. However, if the search process is too time consuming or cumbersome, forget it. We’d rather have you ask a stale question than no question.

6. If you should ever make a “mistake” (e.g., presenting as fact something that isn’t really quite a fact, or offering an opinion that was not as well thought out as it should have been) you can use the EDIT feature to change your post or remove it altogether. However, since it is often instructive to others to see your correction in a new post to the thread, this is the preferred approach. If someone points out your “mistake” and you learned something from the response, a simple admission of this is always welcome and appreciated. We all make mistakes.

10. It is the belief of this forum that one cannot be found to be libelous for presenting either opinions, clearly labeled as such, or facts that are truthful. Therefore, in presenting something that is, or that might be construed to be, negative about a piano, a rebuilder or a dealer, you are encouraged to carefully label your opinions as being opinions rather than facts and to only present facts that are truthful and that can be substantiated. Hearsay, rumor and speculation (regardless of where they originate) are not reliable sources of facts. Therefore, to repeat these in a way that could injure a dealer, a manufacturer or a rebuilder might invite legal action against you. This forum is always interested in hearing all views, both positive and negative, but in presenting something negative you should always use good sense and exercise caution. If you are unsure about your legal standing in a matter of this type, you should seek professional counsel.

Irving, please forgive me for not reading the revisions, but I trust your judgement I think.

I really like what you've written, and thank you for taking the time to write it. I can tell that these recent issues have really been an irritant for you, because I think I've seen more posting from you about this than I've ever seen before.
Like you, I think that rules are not the answers to any of these problems (nor is a subscription based service in my opinion). I too enjoy the self-policing of this board, and think it's one of it's strong points. Unfortunately even with that, bad apples exist and as I'm sure you've heard that are dealers that use this forum to farm for sales. I think we can't end this though, and those of us who operate with integrity simply continue to do so.
I think we provide a great place here for people to discuss, and educate themselves and each other.
Anyway, thanks again for taking the lead on this and really confronting this issue. Thank you also for taking the time to give us a "10 Commandments".

Now, what would I quibble with?
None of it really.
I would say that I also feel that the search function should be considered. Yes people are free to post anything (freedom afterall is what this forum's based on) but most serious questions have been answered many times, and most info is farely current on many of these topics, especially technical ones (after all the instrument hasn't changed much in 300 years).

Anyway, great job, and I give it my thumbs up.

If anyone is wondering what prompted the "10 Commandments", see our Legal Issues Area

Hello, I'm new to the forum and thought I'd take the time to get a feel for the rules and such. I stumbled upon this thread and I think it's a great idea to be so verbose and forthright about repurcussions for not adhering to these "commandments". It has probably protected your members from fraud and shills, so I commend your efforts to keep out the garbage. I also can trust that most of the information and resources in your forum are respectable. Cheers for looking out for your members and having the time to sniff out fraud and expose it.

I have never had much luck with using the "search feature" on various forums. Sometimes it works but usually not very well or not at all and time is wasted.

Too, it's often the case that the most informed people were not aware of the original post and happen to see and respond to the same subject when posted again. Hence, the subject is addressed in a much more thorough fashion to the benefit of all.

While this is true I can understand why some dislike seeing the same questions or subjects posted over and over again. Easy solution and it is: Don't bother with it.

I believe using the search feature before posting is good but doing so should never be considered mandatory. I don't think the poster should be criticized for not searching before posting.

I have posted the same question the second time in an attempt to get a better response. I seldom do this but believe it's reasonable to (infrequently) do this.

Bech

This is a good things to searching features and i likes this forum sites. The Ten Commandments appear twice in the Hebrew Bible, in the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy. I think which is very fine