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#1776232 - 10/24/11 12:44 PM Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band
Adam Malone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 33
Loc: Minnesota
Greetings!

I have just started playing in a classic rock cover band, and am looking for any tips/thoughts/anecdotes from people who have played rock 'n roll keys. Specifically, what do you think sounds good to play on songs without a specific piano part written out? Thanks in advance!

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Piano & Music Accessories
#1776242 - 10/24/11 12:59 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Studio Joe Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 1803
Loc: Decatur, Texas

be sure and get some musician's ear plugs to protect your ears.
Rock & roll is usually played very loud.
_________________________
Joe Whitehead ------ Texas Trax

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#1776250 - 10/24/11 01:12 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
No piano on the record ? - play very little - maybe just as a percussion instrument to help the groove along. Unless you find something that fits, then do it. Ask your bandmates. and howdy, StudioJoe! [8'er from decatur, county seat of wise] ear protection is good advice, too.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1776393 - 10/24/11 05:16 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Swarth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 366
Loc: SF Bay Area Ca.
Piano or keys? If keys then you should have a wide arsenal of sounds at your fingertips. Synth's rule in R&R, pianos not so much. There is usually something you can fit in, just always remember that the guitar player is the most important person in the band wink
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#1776884 - 10/25/11 12:17 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Swarth]
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Originally Posted By: Swarth
Synth's rule in R&R, pianos not so much.


Tell Jerry Lee that! laugh
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Music teacher and piano player.

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#1776887 - 10/25/11 12:19 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
call Chuck Berry's pianist Johnny Johnson for few lessons.
Listen to piano solo at 2:50


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#1777012 - 10/25/11 04:32 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
AnonymousInvention Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 142
Loc: Florida
Use two good synths with good sounds. Then you can decide what sounds good for a particular tune. Sometimes you can be the horn section etc. Mostly, unless your band is trying to exactly jukebox the tune, you need to make up a part that fits with the tune and decide on a sound. I mostly use different B3 organ sounds, piano, Wurlitzer and Fender Rhodes sounds. Be creative.
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#1777121 - 10/25/11 07:10 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: rob.art]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
I was fortunate to see Mr Johnson at Poor David's in Dallas . He was one fine player

From the Wikipedia bio article about Mr. Johnson, "Johnson was the subject of a Homespun Tapes piano instructional video entitled The Blues/Rock Piano of Johnnie Johnson – Sessions with a Keyboard Legend Originally released in 1999 (DVD version in 2005), the video is hosted by David Bennett Cohen along with Johnson's band featuring guitarist Jimmy Vivino."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnnie_Johnson_(musician)

I think Homespun still sells the lessons.

Alas, Mr Johnson passed away in 2005.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1777284 - 10/26/11 02:04 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21187
Loc: Oakland
I was on a bay cruise with Johnny Johnson, Johnny Otis, and Johnny Nocturne on different decks many years ago. That was fun!
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Semipro Tech

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#1777489 - 10/26/11 12:46 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
mc9320 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 08/04/11
Posts: 7
Loc: London, UK
I agree using a keyboard with a multitude of sounds (rather than just a piano) is the way to go. You can use some great organ/synth and piano voices which can sound amazing in a rock set up

Having played in a rock band a few years ago, one piece of advice I can give is to try and just play some fills on certain tunes, and complement the guitar(s), rather than play all the time. Having two or sometimes three chordal instruments playing away can be too much at times, and leaving space in the music can be more interesting and sound better too!
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#1777993 - 10/27/11 05:20 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
ado Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/18/08
Posts: 94
Loc: france
And make sure you're as far as you can from guitarists amp.
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ado

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#1778099 - 10/27/11 10:45 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: daviel]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
Originally Posted By: daviel

From the Wikipedia bio article about Mr. Johnson, "Johnson was the subject of a Homespun Tapes piano instructional video entitled The Blues/Rock Piano of Johnnie Johnson – Sessions with a Keyboard Legend Originally released in 1999 (DVD version in 2005), the video is hosted by David Bennett Cohen along with Johnson's band featuring guitarist Jimmy Vivino."


I have this DVD, very good treat.

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#1778679 - 10/28/11 10:10 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Gerard12 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 757
Loc: South Carolina
It's been awhile since I've played r 'n r in a band on acoustic piano.

Building on what mc9320 said above:

If there was one guitarist in the band, I usually saw my role as a rhythm player, which means I was probably more locked in with what the bass and drums were doing than with anything else.

If there were 2 guitars in the band, that was difficult 'cause it took a while to figure out when or when not to play. Or how to juggle the rhythm parts and the "decorative" parts.


Edited by Gerard12 (10/28/11 10:12 AM)
_________________________
Piano performance and instruction (former college music professor).

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#1778683 - 10/28/11 10:15 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Try this: the more people in the band the less you play. "When in doubt, lay out."
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1778711 - 10/28/11 11:01 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: daviel]
rob.art Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 187
Originally Posted By: daviel
Try this: the more people in the band the less you play. "When in doubt, lay out."


good tip, but when they hire second keyboardist it might be a sign you play way too less...

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#1778986 - 10/28/11 05:59 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Next band rehearsal experiment by having everybody play as much and as loud as possible.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1779274 - 10/29/11 09:25 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Daniel Marsalone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 36
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Adam,

I don't agree with the others telling you to lay out on songs with no keys. First off, I don't know if you are just playing piano or a keyboard with a bunch of sounds.

If you can get a Hammond organ sound and run it through some distortion, you are half way there. For chords you can play the power chord thing with just Root and Fifth or invert it and play Fifth and Root on top for little more tartness and basically play along with the guitarist. Lay back with the volume lower than the guitar and don't play as rhythmic as he does, either simplify the rhythm and use longer notes or just play the thing as a pad. When he takes his solo you are there to be the "rhythm guitar" with the distortion maxed out you'll pretty much sound like a guitar anyway. Go with an 888800000 registration with distortion. If you are going to be doing the pad type thing cut back on the distortion a bit so that it is like a smokey organ sound and maybe use some leslie. For the buzz saw guitar type sound just max out the distortion and stop the leslie. With the buzz saw it's best to play a little more rhythmic because it is a strong biting tone and maybe irritating as a pad.

If you are going to be playing piano stuff you can be more rhythmic playing in eighth notes etc since the piano has strong decay. For piano, I'd play some triad inversions in the left hand with a Root and Fifth inversion in the right and try to find a rhythm that suits the song.

Don't lay out, just lay back and let the guitar be prominent and play little lower in volume than the guitar. Adding organ to a classic rock song really fills out the sound of the band making it nice and thick and fat. Piano adds more interest as there are some different layers going on.

Also for certain parts of songs you can accent them by playing deep the bass and doubling the bassist. I wouldn't do it all the time but it is a good effect to use for highlighting a part of a song.

The Johnnie Johnson Homespun DVD is good but he played with Chuck Berry (he is the Johnny in Johnny B Goode) and plays a boogie woogie style of rock piano similar to Jerry Lee Lewis and Dr. John. That is a specific kind of thing which maybe good for oldies and stuff but you don't really here that type stuff in classic rock too much. I think CCR has a few songs with boogie woogie piano in the background.

For more classic rock stuff and just playing keys as a psuedo rhythm guitar in a hard rock band, I think the best place to look is to Jon Lord with Deep Purple. Listen to the Machine Head album and learn from it. He is basically playing heavily distorted organ with power chords playing rhythm along side Ritchie Blackmore on guitar and he has some good solos on there too if you were wondering how to approach that. Deep Purple is heavy and Jon Lord really is the blueprint for hardrock keys and organ.

Peace,
D.

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#1779297 - 10/29/11 10:41 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Practice playing along with this:

http://youtu.be/82w6OFaq_Gw
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1779438 - 10/29/11 03:55 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: AdamMalone
Greetings!

I have just started playing in a classic rock cover band, and am looking for any tips/thoughts/anecdotes from people who have played rock 'n roll keys. Specifically, what do you think sounds good to play on songs without a specific piano part written out? Thanks in advance!


Since it is a cover band, play whatever is on the recording. If you don't hear any keyboards, turn down to half volume and just follow along. If you are using synths, keep a guitar patch handy and cover the rhythm when the guitar goes to a lead.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1779633 - 10/29/11 10:50 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Swarth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 366
Loc: SF Bay Area Ca.
My old Ensoniq TS-12 was a lot of fun playing rock. Sometimes when I got a solo I put up this great lead guitar patch that when used with the 2 patch select buttons and aftertouch could rip off divebombs, fret scratches and other stuff. The lead player hated when I did that. Even though it's old and beat up I still love that synth, but piano sounds were never it's forte.
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Quid est veritas?

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#1779647 - 10/29/11 11:24 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Swarth]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Swarth
Sometimes when I got a solo I put up this great lead guitar patch that when used with the 2 patch select buttons and aftertouch could rip off divebombs, fret scratches and other stuff. The lead player hated when I did that.


Yeah, they hate that, but they don't mind at all stomping all over your parts.
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Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1780475 - 10/31/11 12:22 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Damon]
Daniel Marsalone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 36
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Originally Posted By: Damon
[quote=AdamMalone]
Since it is a cover band, play whatever is on the recording. If you don't hear any keyboards, turn down to half volume and just follow along. If you are using synths, keep a guitar patch handy and cover the rhythm when the guitar goes to a lead.


I agree with the laying back but have to recommend using a rhodes, clavinet, or wurlizter sound with distortion over a guitar patch. While the electric pianos and clav are not true to the recording they do sound authentic and using the clav for rhythmic playing wood be a good choice.

In my experience guitar patches are okay for leads but using it for chords and rhythm guitar parts is like getting on the express train to Cheezeville. For reference using an Alto sax patch is like having your own Bell helicopter and pilot on call ready to take you deep into downtown Cheezeville on a moment's notice.

Daniel

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#1780566 - 10/31/11 02:53 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Daniel Marsalone]
ten left thumbs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 3335
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: Daniel Marsalone

For reference using an Alto sax patch is like having your own Bell helicopter and pilot on call ready to take you deep into downtown Cheezeville on a moment's notice.

Daniel


Your rock and roll band is playing moment's notice? I'm impressed. smile

I don't know downtown cheezeville but it's just asking for a song.
_________________________
I am a competent teacher.


www.justfingers.co.uk
www.babysinging.co.uk

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#1780690 - 10/31/11 05:44 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Swarth Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/28/11
Posts: 366
Loc: SF Bay Area Ca.
I captured a live performance, bottled it and it's a big seller. Never underestimate the power of Cheeze!


Edited by Swarth (10/31/11 05:45 PM)
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Quid est veritas?

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#1781346 - 11/01/11 07:28 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Daniel Marsalone]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Daniel Marsalone

I agree with the laying back but have to recommend using a rhodes, clavinet, or wurlizter sound with distortion over a guitar patch. While the electric pianos and clav are not true to the recording they do sound authentic and using the clav for rhythmic playing wood be a good choice.


Okay, you've just defined "authentic" 180 degrees from my definition, I think. Most modern synths have pretty good guitar sounds that, when voiced and played properly, sound excellent in a live mix.


Originally Posted By: Daniel Marsalone

In my experience guitar patches are okay for leads but using it for chords and rhythm guitar parts is like getting on the express train to Cheezeville. For reference using an Alto sax patch is like having your own Bell helicopter and pilot on call ready to take you deep into downtown Cheezeville on a moment's notice.
Daniel


I've gotten good results and many compliments from doing both. A couple times from actual saxophone players. Cheeze is when you take someones favorite guitar-rock song and dump a rhodes into it.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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#1781404 - 11/01/11 08:57 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
daviel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 933
Loc: Waxahachie, Texas
Cheese, in my view, is a bad imitation by a synth of a regular instrument. The badness can come from the cheesy patch used or from the cheesy way the part is played ( e.g., a saxophone part played from a keyboard in such a manner that it's obvious it could not possibly have been played, and was not played, from a saxophone), or, often both. It is easy to produce cheese. Happens all the time, usually without the culprit having the least notion that's what being put out there.
_________________________
"She loves to limbo, that much is clear. She's got the right dynamic for the New Frontier"
http://roadhouseallstars.com/

David Loving, Waxahachie, Texas

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#1781767 - 11/02/11 01:54 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Daniel Marsalone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 36
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Damon,

I wouldn't call using a substitute intsrument cheeze. And by authentic I meant that while not true to the record, you can sound pretty darn close with a sound that the keyboard designers spent some time emulating well. Guitar sounds on keyboards are typically an afterthought and I haven't found one yet that sounds really good for chording.

Look at Deep Purple, Jon Lord on Hammond is basically replacing a rhythm guitar with a distorted organ and it sounds heavier than Sabbath. Ain't no cheeze there. Same with Bernie Worrell on his distorted clavinet with wah pedal, and delay. Sometimes when listening to Worrell on the clav it would be hard for someone to tell whether or not it is a guitar.

If you use these kind of sounds with a hard rock band, you are going to sound good, not cheezy.

My point is that many keyboards don't have a guitar sound and on those that do, I'd rather use the clavinet sound. Maybe a Motif would have a good guitar patch but I know the Roland Fantom doesn't.

Most keyboard players are going to have something like a Nord Electro or a digital stage piano or a Hammond clonewheel. Those do have electric piano, organ and clavinet patches but don't have guitar patches. You can play in a hard rock band with these boards and not sound cheezy. You don't have to run out and drop two grand on a Motif to get a nice guitar patch when using a clavinet patch will probably sound better anyway.

And for Cheeze, I just remembered maybe the king of cheeze, that Roland vocal scat/doobop sound. Just add water, instant cheeze. Daviel is on the money about the cheese and playing synth emulations in ways the real instrument can't.

Damon, I can't believe that any sax patch is going to sound anything but cheese. Maybe if it was in the background or layered into a horn section but definitely not out front like if you had a piano trio and split the upper part of the keyboard to play like a Lester Young small group.

Those saxophonists were most likely complimenting your playing and not the actual patch. Sax patches are only useful covering those 80's rock ballads where the Kenny G patch was used on the recording and even then it sound like a can of Easy Cheese exploded into my face.

Peace Out,
D

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#1781827 - 11/02/11 03:56 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
blueston Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 271
Loc: MA, USA
All this cheeze talk is making me hungry and reaching for a box of crackers.

Actually I have been there many times accidentally on many an unfortunate detour but never realized it was called Cheezeville. Thanks for letting me know this ugly place has a real name smile

I agree with many of the comments here. As a keyboard player sometimes you want to believe you can replace any other band member but many of the sounds just don't pass the believable level. For once I wish you could just grab a hold of some brassy horn patch and have it sound like the real thing.

Many sounds wouldn't work for live performance but still, that doobob sound on my Roland is my daughter's favorite!

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#1781846 - 11/02/11 04:35 PM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Adam Malone]
Daniel Marsalone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 36
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Looks like you got a future Packer fan there Blueston.

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#1782938 - 11/04/11 08:36 AM Re: Playing Piano in a Rock and Roll Band [Re: Daniel Marsalone]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6049
Loc: St. Louis area
Daniel,

I understand the aversion to copying an instrument with a possibly lame imitation synth, but I believe the "cheese" factor is drastically reduced when the player takes the time to learn and emulate the various details in the original instrument.

For guitar, this means not just playing the chords, but learning exactly what notes (voicing) are being played, whether they are strummed up or down, etc. For Sax, it's getting pitch bends exact and analyzing overblown notes to see what pitches, at what volume, you have to introduce to emulate that, etc. (try working out the sax solo on "the one thing" by inxs, it's a fun exercise)

There are always musicians that stand at the back of a club with their arms folded listening for a reason to cry cheese. They usually don't pay to get in or tip their waitress so they don't matter, but when one of them compliments my "cheat" (and they're not looking for a gig) I figure it probably isn't cheese.
_________________________
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with.

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