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There are always giant battles of the wills to get him to play one hand at a time, to play slowly, or to isolate a few bars. Instead he likes to ALWAYS start at the beginning at a speed he isn't capable of at all, get to the hard part, then go back to the start again. So say he has a problem with the third bar, he'll play the first 2 bars 10 times in a row and not even touch the 3rd bar. If I say "I think we need to look at the 3rd bar by itself to make sure you get it next time" he'll go "no no no I've got it now, I've got it" then plays the first 2 bars again another bunch of times. My guess is that since he has prelabelled the pieces as "easy", it causes a lot of mental discomfort when he reaches a spot that he should 'obviously be able to play since it's so easy'. Maybe why he wants to avoid these. If you make things look more challenging (see following ideas), hopefully he'll lose the 'easy' mindblock and the problems it creates. Mix it up, have him play the measures backwards (ie. you still play forward, but start at the last measure, working towards the first) Or have him play random measures. If need be, make a copy of the piece, cut the measures out, then give them those to practice off of (keep his book at the studio for the time being). If he just goes home and puts the measures in order then plays through it as always, you could try giving him only every 2nd measure for one week, or only the measures that need work. Alternatively, make a copy of the piece, and cut out the measures that he plays well. That's his practice copy. Once all the measures are gone, he can play from the book.
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Hey apple!!! In this moment I don't have my files with me (you know, I'm approuching the lunch hour for write in the forum ) But I have a full songbook about the Zelda's songs I mentioned and other anime sheet music, in fact, these songs are published in my youtube channel, they duration is between 1 and 2 minutes and are the videos where I recorded from the side angle, not the bottom angle (in this time I didn't have the idea about how to record ) However, I got some files in this internet page Ichigo's sheet music The files are transcriptions uploaded by many people and are able to download and share But when I arrive at home, I'll upload the songbook I mention and I can share it with you, while some of the songs I'm talking about are: -Lost woods -Zelda's lullaby -Song of storms -Song of healing -Kakariko village -And others... I'm sure you can find so much funny excercises in this songs, and are very useful I hope you can find useful it for you and how mention before, Super Mario Bros, theme is excellent, I think so much people find glad memories about this game and this theme Greetings!!! -Ismael
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A consequence is a result from an action. From the article: For example, if your son sleeps late and doesn’t get up for school, the natural consequence is to go to bed earlier that night to get more sleep. That is not a consequence. That is a decision the parent has made. If your son sleeps late and doesn't get up for school, then the consequence is that he has missed school, gets behind in his work, and has to struggle. The child's goal is to do well in school because he knows eventually it will lead to employment and the independence and self-sufficiency in life that this will bring. And yes, children can grasp that, and usually do. I think you meant that we *hope" the child's goal "is is to do well in school". That's exactly why making the child go to bed earlier is NOT a consequence. The CONSEQUENCE is, as you say, problems in school as the result of either being late or falling asleep in school. Isn't it fun being ignored? You need to be argumentative and unreasonable, and then you will be heard in this forum.
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This sounds like a normal 7-year-old to me. PA level 2A is already introducing 8th notes, isn't it? I might find a non-Piano Adventures book that is slightly easier (but don't tell him!) and assign a lot of pieces he can learn quickly and find lots of good things that he is doing. I try to steer myself away from battles of will with children this age. Will he sing in the lesson? Before he even starts to practice a piece, close the fallboard, and tap and chant the rhythm together. Then Tap and sing the words (you sing first so he can hear it and follow along), then tap and say the notes. THEN do "super-slow-motion-like-a-snail" practice together with him for some continuity. Try playing "add a note" or use "backwards practice." Next student is coming in... gotta go! Great thread.
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A consequence is a result from an action. From the article: For example, if your son sleeps late and doesn’t get up for school, the natural consequence is to go to bed earlier that night to get more sleep. That is not a consequence. That is a decision the parent has made. If your son sleeps late and doesn't get up for school, then the consequence is that he has missed school, gets behind in his work, and has to struggle. The child's goal is to do well in school because he knows eventually it will lead to employment and the independence and self-sufficiency in life that this will bring. And yes, children can grasp that, and usually do. I think you meant that we *hope" the child's goal "is is to do well in school". That's exactly why making the child go to bed earlier is NOT a consequence. The CONSEQUENCE is, as you say, problems in school as the result of either being late or falling asleep in school. Isn't it fun being ignored? You need to be argumentative and unreasonable, and then you will be heard in this forum. Keystring and Gary, I agree that is not a consequence. Dustin had asked for any "proof" that the tactic of discipline or consequence existed. I just did a cursory search on google which anyone who wants to really find out something can do. However, for a student who is disobedient in the lesson, having a consequence that is imposed and told ahead of time, then the child can choose to either follow the rule or choose the consequence. I have read several good books and articles on this (which are back in WI, otherwise I'd give them as references, and I don't recall the names), so this is nothing I just made up on the fly. I used it a lot in my Kindermusik classes to help manage the children, and the kids LOVED my class. Why people equate discipline with abuse (which IMO are polar opposites) I don't understand.
private piano/voice teacher FT
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www.Mariopiano.com has lots of Mario music including things like the power up sound and the time warning. These are fun, very short little etudes. I like the underworld theme for octaves.
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I'm gonna take the middle of the road position on this one. In general, I believe that it is best to try to use friendlier tactics most of the time. However, there are times when adults must set boundaries. IMO when youngsters attempt to push these boundaries, the best approach is to firmly stand your ground. If they push, then the answer is "no". If they keep pushing then the answer is "I love you, but, no." Don't get upset, state your boundaries and stick to them. After they acquiesce, if you want to move the boundary back a little, you can.
Kids rise or fall to the level of what is expected of them.
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Telling a child 'I'm the teacher - You're the kid. So you will listen to me and not argue.' is not over the top in your opinion? I don't find anything wrong with that. Neither do I. There comes a point when things need to be stated exactly as they are. The student is the student, the teacher is the teacher. A reasonable amount of respect and obedience should be expected. Sometimes a child controls the situation simply because all the adults in their life so far have allowed them to and it is in their best interest for the cycle to be broken.
I'll figure it out eventually. Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.
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I'm gonna take the middle of the road position on this one. In general, I believe that it is best to try to use friendlier tactics most of the time. However, there are times when adults must set boundaries. IMO when youngsters attempt to push these boundaries, the best approach is to firmly stand your ground. If they push, then the answer is "no". If they keep pushing then the answer is "I love you, but, no." Don't get upset, state your boundaries and stick to them. After they acquiesce, if you want to move the boundary back a little, you can.
Kids rise or fall to the level of what is expected of them. And the smile on their face when you tell them how proud you are of them when they do reach that next level is a wonderful sight.
I'll figure it out eventually. Until then you may want to keep a safe distance.
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I have found that poor behavior in a child like this is largely due to his not having practiced. You need to get the mother on board, perhaps even better yet, the father. The child must practice five days per week.
Also, if bar three is really hard, then the piece is too hard. I'd back up and only play music for one hand at a time, with very few additional notes.
I'd shorten the lesson to half-hour, and omit theory.
But I need more details to assess this situation properly.
Last edited by Candywoman; 10/26/11 12:32 AM.
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However, for a student who is disobedient in the lesson, having a consequence that is imposed and told ahead of time, then the child can choose to either follow the rule or choose the consequence.
I agree. I try to phrase it with a really big picture, and for most of my students it works. I tell them, for instance, that when they learn to read language, WHAT they are able to read is dependent upon their reading level. I explain that "more difficult books" are NOT more difficult to read for those who have reached that level, and the huge bonus is that those more "difficult" books are a zillion times more interesting. I explain to my students, even the young ones, that everything we are doing is for the purpose of mastering what Currawong once very cleverly, I think, called "the quick learn". For me that means maximum benefit for the amount of work I do, and the same thing for students. I explain that the REASON it is fun for me to play music that seems quite difficult to other people is that for me it is not difficult, and I explain that I have earned that ease through intelligent and focused work. That sets up the minor points: every lesson we WILL check the letter names, while playing, of some piece, usually short, LH and RH separate until I am satisified that the notes on the page/keys on the piano are linked and absorbed. No one gets to pass on that. Not someone seven, and not someone 70. We WILL count one short piece or one page, every week, until I know that a strong rhythm sense has been absorbed and mastered. No piece will be started from the beginning until I say so. If I tell someone to play this or that section, or this or that measure, that's what is going to happen. There are other things like that. I've been ripped a bit by some people for saying these things, and it makes me sound like a hard ***, but I am not. The consequence for not doing, at home, what I ask for, involves doing it in the lesson until it gets done, and if there is steady resistance to doing this, I truly tell my students and their parents that I am not the right teacher for them. But I balance this with a very liberal attitude towards the music my students pick. IF they do the things I ask for, mastering what they need to play music, I'm game for just about anything, and I don't care if we suddenly jump from Bach to Mario music. My reward to students who do what I ask, follow my principles, is to prove to them that by following my "rules" they gain indepedence. After all, isn't that what we all really want? To play the music WE want to play? So that's my take on consequences. I always teach parents how to drill their children at home when I work with children under seven, so if these "early lessons" work, by the time the kids are a bit older, they are so used to practicing in a way that works that I almost never get resistance:)
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However, for a student who is disobedient in the lesson, having a consequence that is imposed and told ahead of time, then the child can choose to either follow the rule or choose the consequence.
I agree. I try to phrase it with a really big picture, and for most of my students it works. I tell them, for instance, that when they learn to read language, WHAT they are able to read is dependent upon their reading level. I explain that "more difficult books" are NOT more difficult to read for those who have reached that level, and the huge bonus is that those more "difficult" books are a zillion times more interesting. I explain to my students, even the young ones, that everything we are doing is for the purpose of mastering what Currawong once very cleverly, I think, called "the quick learn". For me that means maximum benefit for the amount of work I do, and the same thing for students. I explain that the REASON it is fun for me to play music that seems quite difficult to other people is that for me it is not difficult, and I explain that I have earned that ease through intelligent and focused work. That sets up the minor points: every lesson we WILL check the letter names, while playing, of some piece, usually short, LH and RH separate until I am satisified that the notes on the page/keys on the piano are linked and absorbed. No one gets to pass on that. Not someone seven, and not someone 70. We WILL count one short piece or one page, every week, until I know that a strong rhythm sense has been absorbed and mastered. No piece will be started from the beginning until I say so. If I tell someone to play this or that section, or this or that measure, that's what is going to happen. There are other things like that. I've been ripped a bit by some people for saying these things, and it makes me sound like a hard ***, but I am not. The consequence for not doing, at home, what I ask for, involves doing it in the lesson until it gets done, and if there is steady resistance to doing this, I truly tell my students and their parents that I am not the right teacher for them. But I balance this with a very liberal attitude towards the music my students pick. IF they do the things I ask for, mastering what they need to play music, I'm game for just about anything, and I don't care if we suddenly jump from Bach to Mario music. My reward to students who do what I ask, follow my principles, is to prove to them that by following my "rules" they gain indepedence. After all, isn't that what we all really want? To play the music WE want to play? So that's my take on consequences. I always teach parents how to drill their children at home when I work with children under seven, so if these "early lessons" work, by the time the kids are a bit older, they are so used to practicing in a way that works that I almost never get resistance:) I couldn't agree more! You and many of the teachers in this forum remind me of the awesome teachers I had when I was a kid. Your advice rocks! I say this as an adult who returned to the keyboard last year after a 35-year hiatus. I'm having a wonderful experience today because of the teachers who took this approach to teaching me. I wish I could have thanked those teachers I had as a kid. However, I was a kid, at the time and couldn't have known. So I'll thank all of you teachers in advance right now for the kids (and adults) you're teaching now. OT: I'm not thankful to the person who brought their virus to work and "shared" it with me and gave me too much time on my hands to write notes in the middle of the night while I'm recovering from flu! Okay, now I can go back to sleep.
Last edited by griffin2417; 10/26/11 05:26 AM. Reason: Clarity
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I'm new to piano teaching but have been teaching full time for about 10 years. In my experience, when kids say something is "easy" (or "boring") they often mean that it is too difficult. Sometimes they feel that it "should" be easy or that you expect it to be easy for them, so they try to make it look like they are flying through. I see this behavior a lot with kids who don't know their basic math facts or can't read well, and would rather make it look like they're rushing and careless than that they're "stupid" or "don't get it". One of the hardest things can be to ask for help on something that you "should" be able to do.
Depending on your relationship with the child, I'd suggest having a conversation away from the piano. "I've noticed that when we sit down to play, you play very fast and you keep going back to the beginning. Have you noticed that? Why do you think you're doing that?" You might get "I don't know" or "because it's easy" as an answer at first. But persist. You might find out that he knows he should be practicing and hasn't been doing it, or is embarrassed at the fact that he's struggling on an "easy" piece. He may also not understand why you're giving him the directions that you are - how they're going to help him become a better player.
To me this sounds like a kid who needs to be good at something and wants to stand out in his family, but isn't independent enough at home to sit and practice on his own. This situation is setting him up for frustration, if he is always walking in the door knowing he'll be tested on what he's practiced and knowing he hasn't done it.
Like I said, I'm not an expert piano teacher, just a special ed teacher who sees this behavior fairly often. I think a talk with the mom and child together might be in order, to establish what exactly they want to accomplish out of these lessons and the conditions necessary to meet the goal. If the goal is just for him to hang out, have fun, and learn about music, that's one thing - if the goal is for him to get good at the piano and feel proficient, that's another.
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The consequence for not doing, at home, what I ask for, involves doing it in the lesson until it gets done, and if there is steady resistance to doing this, I truly tell my students and their parents that I am not the right teacher for them.
But I balance this with a very liberal attitude towards the music my students pick. IF they do the things I ask for, mastering what they need to play music, I'm game for just about anything, and I don't care if we suddenly jump from Bach to Mario music. My reward to students who do what I ask, follow my principles, is to prove to them that by following my "rules" they gain indepedence.
After all, isn't that what we all really want? To play the music WE want to play?
Gary D. It sounds like you are very settled (in a good way) with your philosophy and goals. When a student is challenging it can be easy to forget our original goals.
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I'm new to piano teaching but have been teaching full time for about 10 years. In my experience, when kids say something is "easy" (or "boring") they often mean that it is too difficult. Sometimes they feel that it "should" be easy or that you expect it to be easy for them, so they try to make it look like they are flying through. I see this behavior a lot with kids who don't know their basic math facts or can't read well, and would rather make it look like they're rushing and careless than that they're "stupid" or "don't get it". One of the hardest things can be to ask for help on something that you "should" be able to do.
. . . This situation is setting him up for frustration, if he is always walking in the door knowing he'll be tested on what he's practiced and knowing he hasn't done it. Good things to think about here - I've seen this in students, too. They're not comfortable making any mistakes and will sabotage a whole lesson - that's how they deal with it. When I see this I take a major step back and work on simple things. For weeks. Simple. I think it takes longer to establish a good working relationship with students who have these kinds of issues.
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I'm new to piano teaching but have been teaching full time for about 10 years. In my experience, when kids say something is "easy" (or "boring") they often mean that it is too difficult. Sometimes they feel that it "should" be easy or that you expect it to be easy for them, so they try to make it look like they are flying through. I see this behavior a lot with kids who don't know their basic math facts or can't read well, and would rather make it look like they're rushing and careless than that they're "stupid" or "don't get it". One of the hardest things can be to ask for help on something that you "should" be able to do.
Depending on your relationship with the child, I'd suggest having a conversation away from the piano. "I've noticed that when we sit down to play, you play very fast and you keep going back to the beginning. Have you noticed that? Why do you think you're doing that?" You might get "I don't know" or "because it's easy" as an answer at first. But persist. You might find out that he knows he should be practicing and hasn't been doing it, or is embarrassed at the fact that he's struggling on an "easy" piece. He may also not understand why you're giving him the directions that you are - how they're going to help him become a better player. Interesting. The piano can be a great distraction. It also makes it easy to break eye contact - when they don't want to give an answer. I'm having my own issues with one particular student who is either dyslexic, or doesn't see the need to play the note that's on the page. So I'm finding the responses here interesting.
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i like your suggestions.. i always ask my students what their favorite songs are on the radio or whatever they call it these days,.
Do you have any the YOU suggest particularly? do you have sheet music from you tube or something? i like creating my own exercises in that it gives the student a break from sightreading that can be very helpful in orienting themselves to the keyboard.
it would be awesome to find a published book of video game sheet music masquerading as exercises.. for me at least. err find the super mario brothers theme song, it beats most exercises in terms of difficulty .... jumping sixths and thirds the entire time , teaches syncopation and IT'S FAST AS heck!!! thanks for the link..
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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i like your suggestions.. i always ask my students what their favorite songs are on the radio or whatever they call it these days,.
Do you have any the YOU suggest particularly? do you have sheet music from you tube or something? i like creating my own exercises in that it gives the student a break from sightreading that can be very helpful in orienting themselves to the keyboard.
it would be awesome to find a published book of video game sheet music masquerading as exercises.. for me at least. err find the super mario brothers theme song, it beats most exercises in terms of difficulty .... jumping sixths and thirds the entire time , teaches syncopation and IT'S FAST AS heck!!! thanks for the link.. Thanks for typing in 'super mario brothers theme song sheet music' into google and clicking on the first link Anyway... super mario brothers theme song link for apple
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This has turned into a really interesting thread.
To the argument about whether humor or discipline is the right approach, I think one or the other comes most naturally to most people, and you need to consciously work on the one that doesn’t come naturally as both are needed at least some of the time.
Dustin sounds like the sort of piano teacher I am – being jokey and playful comes most naturally to me. A couple of months ago I had a kid make the same mistake about 5 times in a row, at which point I threw a fake OTT tantrum with fist banging etc. The kid thought it was hilarious and said she wished she had a recording of it. Best of all, unlike saying “3rd finger on F#†(or whatever it was she was doing wrong), which would have gone in one ear and out the other, my tantrum was memorable and she got it right after that. But sometimes you need to pull out the serious stuff and I’m not so good at that. I appreciate the advice I read on this forum on how to act like I mean business when needed.
I think part of my problem with this kid is that he is my 8th lesson for the day, by which point I am getting tired and without lots of energy the playful stuff doesn’t come as easily or smoothly. As to whether or not he should have a 45 minute lesson, he is the one who begged his mum to let him have an extra 15 minutes like his older sister.
The other thing is that he will physically obstruct me from trying to take control of the lesson – such as pushing my hands out of the way. This makes a lot of the good suggestions from the first post impossible as he doesn’t like me playing along or covering up music etc. I’m hesitant to reprimand him too strongly for this as the family seems like the type that would stop lessons if the kid stopped enjoying them, and he really doesn’t like being “bossed around†as he puts it. He sees me asking him to follow instructions as being “bossy.â€
I like the idea of the polar bear analogy. I will try that next time we’re having a bad lesson. This week he was an angel, I think because I made it quite clear to his mother that I was very annoyed with his behavior last lesson.
I have badgered the mum no end about getting her children to practice, and told her if it isn't scheduled into the week it won't happen etc. It falls on deaf ears and I'm hesitant to keep banging on about it. After a certain point it feels awkward to keep bringing it up.
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ah yes, I have two students who 'push my hands out of they way' - like literally throw their hands up and push my hands off the keyboard. I 'try' to take it as my little bit of playing has enticed them to start playing or that my method of playing annoys them so much that they can't wait to get me to stop If it's just one little thing like that , I don't mind. When it becomes a plethora of things that would seem disobedient or disrespectful, than I would take action. Have you considered moving him to an earlier time on a different day so you aren't so worn out? Kids will be kids and they love fun and colorful stories of animals - and LOL at your temper tantrum, I do that as well and my students simply love it! I also played a game yesterday with a little 6 year old student of mine. I had this fake bloody knife that I used to put a penny on - she would flip the penny using the knife onto a sheet of music and wherever the penny landed, she would have to tell me the note - then we had these animal erasers as pawns she could move around the keyboard to the note she landed on - she absolutely loved this game and played it for a good 30 minutes and made me promise we would play it again next week. So she learns how to figure out notes , has fun flipping pennies with a bloody knife and I just couldn't resist her huge smiles and giggles as the penny flew off in every direction. So, I love having fun during lessons, try to imagine myself as a child and what I would enjoy doing to learn piano things - And then throw creative structure into the lessons so they do obviously learn a lot but disguise it with crazy antics and silly games. If the kid doesn't like following instructions, you should try being more involved with showing him at the piano what you want him to do rather than speaking the commands verbally. If he pushes your hands out the way, I would take that as 'Ok, I'm ready to try, now give me space!'
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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