Wouter, the "adult" name in the title is not entirely accurate. Neither is "beginer". My personal opinion is that there are propably some 'true' beginers that are intimidated and possibly reluctant to participate in these recitals. There may also be a few particiapnsts who play at the intermediate or higher levels with decades of playing under their belt. Performing in a "beginer" recital may not seem compatible either.

In any event, this topic has been discussed at length over the years; always with the same results. That being to leave it alone!

I have never agreed with this logic and still don't simply because a large incompatibility does factually exist. Fact: Our "adult beginer" forum contains members of all ages (not just adults), and is made up of members of all ability and experience levels, not just beginers.

I wouldn't be opposed to a more accurate description of the forum and possibly a finer breakdown of categories...(the addition of an "intermediate" forum to complete the spectrum. We already have a beginer and an advanced ((Pianist Corner)) forum.

Just a heads up. These topics (1. forum title change 2. addition of an intermediate category = Can-O-Worms!.

To be honest, I'd love to see someone else give these topics a run. I've tried several times with no luck!

It's only changing the links to past recordings that would cause me difficulty. But that would also break the old Piano World recital threads. Whatever happens in the future I can adapt to.

Sam

I think there will always be a need for the "ABF", so adults coming to the the forum, will have a place to feel comfortable and communicate with peers. The recital part has been, in my mind, an important part of the learning process. I would hate to see that aspect of the ABF removed.

On the other hand, people advance and move on. I think it is only natural to have an intermediate medium. Also, there are plenty of people who visit, who are intermediates, and probably feel there is not a slot for them to fit. The problem I see is there would need to be two recitals. I suppose the current recital could be bracketed or perhaps the beginners get two quarters and the intermediates get two quarters. That might make the numbers more manageable.

Sounds like a good idea, but...as we all know so well there is quite a wide range of experience, training, talent, skill and ability within any given "level of play" - there are those who are beginning intermediate, those who are intermediate intermediate and those who are advanced intermediate. with a very wide range of difference between each (not to mention those in transition from one to the other) - so ultimately even here you would end up with a situation pretty much as exists already in the recitals - a broad spectrum of skills and abilities in a category the intent of which was to narrow them.

Trap

I think we could handle the links issue with some scripting, probably in an htaccess file at the root level. Or another possibility would be to move the existing recordings over to PW so everthing was in one area.

I'm trying to keep an eye on the discussions but at some point I may need someone to consolidate everything into the primary objectives along with what the group feels would work best for everyone.

I'm happy to provide the space and any support I can, but you folks are the ones who have been doing all the heavy lifting.
If possible I'd like to consolidate things on PW.

I've also been watching the suggestions about other forums or sub-forums.
It isn't that it's difficult for me to create them, but we've had these discussions before and usually decided against them. If there is a really good arguement for creating yet another forum (or sub-forum) I have no problem making it happen. I just don't want us having so many choices nobody knows which one they should be participating in.

Bottom line, I'm here to support you folks any way I can.
It's our members that make the forums work, that's you.

Thanks Monica. I will check it out.

First off, I couldn't live with myself having only 2 recitals per year. To be honest I would rather consider having a monthly recital. This way, if you have something ready, you can participate. If not, maybe the following month you could. Having a monthly recital may actually have members submitting more performances per year. I'd think that could be a good thing. There actually may be less pressure because a fresh new reital will come around every month.

Just a suggestion.

Anyway, if the main topic is the innacurate ABF description (for reasons mentioned above), then all we would have to do is fix the title and we're set. No need to break anyone up. We all stay and perform together in the "amateur" group or some decription of that nature. True 'beginers' can learn and listen to the more seasoned amateurs (various levels of everything other than pro) and the more seasoned players can listen and give suggestions and tips to the beginers. It's a positive enviroment in which everyone wins.

I agree, why bust that up?

Just tweak the title to something more "amateur" oriented and everything is resolved. We still would have a full spectrum offering from the PW site as well broken down into two simple categories:

Pros: (Pianist corner)
Amateur: (Adult* amateurs) *adult may be a loose term. More like 'adult' behavior...for the most part anyway!

*cough* piano bar *cough*

*cough* that you created *cough*cough*

*cough* *cough*

Hehe, good one!

Ben I know the piano bar is a monthly thing but it is not at the 'recital' level. It wasn't meant to be.

The piano bar is really a place to perform anything at any time in any decent shape. Just like an open piano in a bar or similar.

While I understand that not everyone will have something ready every month, some will. Then again, if we have a monthly recital, would it lose its luster of quarterly significance?

You see, I knew this topic just opens the can once again lol.

I think it would. I also think it would make the monthly piano bar obsolete in a way.

Having the recitals quarterly, how many times have you heard the comments, "Another recital again already?!" I think having the quarterly recital platform really is ideal and brilliant that you folks came up with this so long ago and it still works just right today.

(although I personally wouldn't mind recitals every 4 months, but "tri-annual recital" just doesn't sound as nice as "quarterly recital". (and I had to look "tri-annual" up ))


But back to the piano bar, I think this is still a great idea too for posting on a monthly basis. A little more casual, but man, there's some great stuff posted there every month too.

You do have a tendency to do that. You must like those worms!

Yeah I know. actually, Ben is making a lot of sense. I should probably pipe down before we somehow end up with less than 4 recitals per year. I couldn't handle that. Besides, "good job, sounds great" month after month....after month....well, you know!

Thanks Ben...and your stuff is really good too

But seriously, I think that in a certain way to a certain extent the postings to the Piano Bars are so consistently good precisely because there is far less hype and expectation, with far less stress for a "perfect performance", i.e., the predictable and desirable outcome of the casual atmosphere that underlies the whole submission/comments experience.

A monthly recital would more than likely replace this with something more formal and stressful (red dot syndrome loaded) and thus far less satisfying and congenial.

Trap

Remember the ABF Survey?

Our experience is all over the place, but few of us are real beginners anymore.

How about: Amateur Piano Forum - I think one thing most of us have in common is that we don't make our living from music. I don't mean to exclude those teachers and professionals that post helpful tips - they are welcome here.

Of course, since we are so diverse, I doubt that we could ever reach a consensus on a name change...

Sam

I like the idea of hosting the recitals at Piano World. Perhaps "recitals.pianoworld.com" for the subdomain. That way other forums besides ABF (such as the Pianist Corners) can have on-line recitals if they like.

I presume from Frank's postings that hosting 11GB+ of past recital files, plus future expansion, won't significantly change his hosting costs? (That's not a real lot of space compared to today's hard disk sizes, but it has to be shared across multiple Web servers; it may be enterprise SAN storage which is about 10X more expensive than consumer-grade SATA disk).

Sam, I think you need to make a new survey to iron out this change!! Here's a few possible questions, along with my vote and comment.

1.) What should the name of the new recital sight be?

Here's my proposal:

recitals.pianoworld.com\ABF

This makes sense because what if...what if our friends in the Pianist Corner want to have e-citals too?

VOTE:

Thumbs Up ______

Thumbs Down ______


2.) Should we change the name of this forum?

Absolutely NOT!! Once upon a time, I was only a YouTuber with no real home or no one to chat with about being a beginner, etc. I am a re-starter, but guess what?! I was out of the game for almost 30 years, which really makes me a beginner (or rebaganner, restarter, etc). Then one day, about 2 years ago, I googled "Adult Beginner Piano". The rest, as they say, is history.

NAME CHANGE, Vote:

Thumbs Up _____

Thumbs Down ______



3.) Should the recitals continue to be quarterly?

HECK yeah!! Unlike some of you, I'm a very slow learner. I'm lucky to come up with something recordable at least once a quarter...sometimes it takes my slow-learning arse 6 months! The recitals are a big motivator for lots of us to practice and come up with something really GOOOOD. Quarterly is extremely do-able for most of us busy adults.

VOTE:

Thumbs Up ______

Thumbs Down ______


4.) Should the piano bars continue to be monthly!?

Again...HECK YEAH!!! Although I'm a very infrequent participator (again, 'cause I'm slow), I do lurk every so often to see what you guys are working on. I love the informal, low-pressure atmosphere.

VOTE:

Thumbs Up ______

Thumbs Down ______

In reading over everybody's comments and talking things over with LaValse, it seems to me that there are many excellent reasons for migrating the recitals over to Frank's pianoworld servers, and no compelling reasons NOT to make the change.

The main advantage, of course, is that it provides continuity for the recitals as long as PW exists and thus avoids the problem of what would happen--as mr_super-hunky always likes to speculate--if LaValse or I got run over by a train. (Now, if FRANK gets run over by a train, we're in a world of trouble, but that would be true in any case.)

It sounds like we can make a sub-domain free of charge on Frank's PW servers, so being the cheap sort, I suggest that's what we do. If I read Frank's post correctly, that means our recital website name needs to be something like xxxx.pianoworld.com. For the purposes of transparency, I suggest we go with something like abfrecitals.pianoworld.com. I'm personally not a big fan of underlines in URLs, so I'd rather just mash all the letters together, but that's just me.

LaValse is going to get together with Frank about the details of moving over the archives and changing the links. I suppose Sam should get involved at some point, too, to see what we can do about redirecting the links in his index... that's way too much work, and way too helpful, to have it go to waste! In any event, this won't be affecting the ever-imminent upcoming recital.

As for the debate about what to call AB forum, I suggest we save ourselves a whole lot of time and angst and just cut to what we always end up concluding every time this topic gets debated: Leave it the way it is.

You don't like ab_frecitals?

Even more cache than mr. super_hunky stadium

Cathy

The problem with underlines is that, depending on the font/color scheme used and what else is going on, it can be hard to tell whether there's an underline or a space. And it's hard to type them quickly. Even now, after all these years, it can be hard for me to get the underline and hyphen straight with mr_super-hunky's name, which is why I often just call him hunky.

So, yeah, I'm prejudiced against underlines, but I like to think it's a rational prejudice.

If we do move the recitals over to the PW server, I just want to say thanks again to La Valse for the use of his server for the past few years. We would have been stuck without a place to host it in the begining.

Quarterly recitals should remain quarterly.

Monthly piano bar should remain monthly

Monica can just keep calling me "Hunky". It's okay as I often refer to her as "Carpet kitten". It's the way we roll!

Just to note it... instead of underlines (which I agree can be confused with spaces so aren't ideal) one can use dashes, as in abf-recitals.pianoworld.com. That doesn't solve the "hard to type" problem, though.

+1 to the poster who suggested recitals.pianoworld.com and maybe a simple splash page or navigation scheme that can direct the user to the various recitals in PW.

This is easier to remember than the abfrecitals subdomain name, and thinking long-term, it saves Frank the trouble of adding additional related subdomains, if say, the other recital sub-communities on PW, e.g., those in Pianist's Corner, request a similar space. Moreover, before other recitals are added, recitals.pw.com could simply redirect or point to the ABF Recitals, without an intermediary splash page.

ab-frecitals, then

Sigh. Sometimes my jokes are just white noise



Cathy

Just for clarity, I was not suggesting to change this forum's name. I was just proposing a name for the host to store the recital files.

I think Monica summed things up very nicely.
I'd like to thank LaValse too for all the past work and kindess in hosting us - and in advance for what is to come!
Again, if I can be of any help, I'm happy to volonteer !

I think it doesn't matter too much what the new location is called in terms of its link name because all we're ever going to do is go to it from within the forums (I think?)....

If the people in the Pianist corner want to organize their own recitals, ...um, let them. I can't see that it would be a good idea to mix performers from this forum with performers from that forum - especially when it comes to feedback!


I agree that quarterly recitals are about as much as many of us can handle, those who are able and willing to do more have the piano bar.

I found this forum searching for Adult beginner and I imagine many others did too - not just CebuKid
Even though it might be a bit of a misnomer and we often have these discussions, I have no problem with it staying as it is. I've developed an affection for it - and think of Farm Girl - would she have to change her name again?

As for splitting the recitals into "beginner" and "better than beginner" whatever that might be - I honestly don't see that there is a need for that.
In real recitals you have people of different levels playing- why not here?
I know I was one of the ones who went into a mild state of shock listening to the performances in the first recital I ever participated in ---and I said "Beginers? - who are you trying to kid!?" But in retrospect, I really love the fact that there are a few (one or two anyway) who have less playing time than I do, many who are in a reasonably close vicinity but seem to have more talent!- and lots who are significantly more expert /talented at the keyboard. I hear all kinds of music I would never otherwise encounter, and it is really inspirational to think -wow....this person has been playing for 5-6 years.... I might be able to manage it in the future too. This one has been playing for 10+ years...I wonder what I'll be able to do in 10 year... and so on..


I guess we are all creatures of habit, resistant to change --- especially once we've found such a marvellous comfort zone!

Aren't they all? But, so much for affirmative action and equal opportunity for underlines...or is it underscores?

Trap

I vote for recitals.pianoworld.com

"Should we change the name of this forum?"
"Should the recitals continue to be quarterly?"

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Whelp, looks like the whole "adult" + "beginer" semantics debate ends up going nowhere once again....for about the 4th time!

Who keeps constantly bringing this up anyway??

Actually, while all the replies are great, Sams seems to sum it up best.




If you think about it, most, if not all of us are not true 'beginers' anymore but it really doesn't matter as no matter what we call ourselves we will all stay together as one big (disfunctional?) happy family!

I can't promise that I won't bring up the inclusion of "amateur" in the title (as it is a much more accurate description of who we are) but as others have mentioned, people ARE resisant to change and even if we DO change the forum title, it still really doesn't change anything. We're still the same close knit group we've always been.

Group hug but no hanky panky. Okay well maybe just a little!

Note: Monica, the recital title name really is not that important as most of us are just going to click on the link to get there. As long as the title is relatively simple and works with Franks server format then I say just make an executive decision, pick something and implement it. For the most part we trust you; just not with cash! lol.

You're right, hunky, so I'm going to engage in the time-honored method of passing the buck and letting the programmers (LaValse and/or mahlzeit and/or Frank) make that decision. That way nobody can blame me when they come up with one of those typically dense computer thingies like %AbF/#^%4/3##.html.lol.jpeg_}].

Hi All,
I have not been reading posts lately, but I would like to say I agree with Monica. Keep it simple to get to site to upload to the Recital. Keep our name Adult Beginners Forum, keep the Monthly Piano Bar, and give the quarterly recital a name that is simple. I have been busy learning how to use my new Mac. Will download Audacity, and hope I can be ready for the November recital
Dot