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#1781228 - 11/01/11 03:59 PM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: Dustin Sanders]
luvs2teach Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 15
I'm just curious to see how things are going for you next year, five years, ten years from now, Dustin. Sure you have a full studio now, but how many of those same students will you have a year or even two years from now? What will your reputation around town be like? Maybe it will be fine, since there aren't any other piano teachers there and a lot of parents don't know any better. But eventually, people will start seeing through all the bravado. You have a lot of energy and a lot of passion (for what, I'm still uncertain). If you can channel that into continuing your music education and focusing less on what the rest of us are or are not doing, I think you have the makings of a wonderful piano teacher. But you don't need to alienate other piano teachers on the way up. It will catch up with you. There's been a lot of wonderful advice given here. Please give it some serious thought.

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#1781230 - 11/01/11 04:01 PM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: pianomommy1]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: pianomommy1
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted By: Ann in Kentucky
To think that a minister might earn as much as a basketball coach! Outrageous! laugh


I am consistent in that I don't think professional athletes or the team coaches should be earning multiple millions each year either. smile

But it is not quite the same analogy, as the Prosperity Gospel is quite real and a very large portion of church goers are under the impression that if they tithe more, they will be higher up in some sort of hierarchy when it comes time to claim their place in Heaven. Or that they and their children will be blessed during their times on Earth.

Pro coaches don't generally make those sort of statements.

"It is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of God."

So, the Pastors are not following the same thing they are asking their congregational members and supporters to follow - in essence, they are hypocrites of the highest order, unlike the Coaches and Athletes.


Dustin -- I would ask you to refrain from speaking of this of which you do not know. You have said yourself that you don't go to church and haven't and therefor when you make statements like the one above, it shows that you don't know of what you speak.


'going to church' is not the same thing as being in a church. It is a term that people usually use to say they attend the church service and a part of the ritual and believe in it as well.

I never said I don't or have never listened to church services, in fact I am the pianist for a Lutheran Church and I listen to the sermons every Sunday. I am not 'part of that church' as I Do not participate in any other rituals, I don't take communion, I don't sing the Jesus Birthday song, I don't stand up or sing hymns, I don't donate any money to the church and I have never participated in any of it's extra activities unless I am specifically paid to play the piano. I play piano for the church as a paid professional.

(This isn't anything to do with my opinions on religion, just clarifying that you are in fact wrong about your original accusation.)

Also, it doesn't quite matter if what you say is true, as that is a bad argument to begin with.

For instance, I don't have to have ever studied martial arts to know it helps a person in self defense. I also do not need to be part of a church in order to know what doctrine is or what sermons are about or about what is taught in a church.
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1781232 - 11/01/11 04:07 PM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: LeaC]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: LeaC

"20.) If you get completely desperate after trying the above 19, try this for a little edge. Post the most unwelcoming and heartless reviews on any and all competition sites within 50 miles. Those potential clients may look elsewhere and find your site instead!"

Dustin, am I reading this correctly or are my eyes playing tricks on me? As outspoken as I am, I find this to be shocking. Dear, I am beginning to think that you are very self destructive. Think about that.

Also, if you are moving your studio up to Church Lane (my former studio) do be aware that St. Joe's is where many conservative Catholics go to school and take lessons there. The head Mother there is a no-nonsense person who will openly speak against you if she gets wind of your views. You should know that. That's the way it is over there.


woah woah woah, that was obviously not meant to be taken seriously, the entire list of advertising ideas was a total joke and it was quite obviously satire.

The fact that I wrote number 20 in that context shows that I believe in the exact opposite, I would never do such a thing and would never honestly recommend this to someone else.

Black hat tactics are a very real thing and I do not participate in this and thing anyone who does is misguided.

I hope that clarifies things.

I also look forward to any Catholic church speaking out against me, it will get me publicity and I will speak out against them as well. Thanks for the heads up, though.
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1781237 - 11/01/11 04:12 PM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: pianomommy1]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: pianomommy1
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted By: Morodiene
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders

I wasn't advertising $400 / month for the entire last year. I was doing about $200 / month simply using google adwords. That got me most of my students because my website wasn't listed high at that time. Craigslist brought me some as well. Then within the past 3 months, I've been doing about $400 to push really hard to max out my studio.

This word of mouth you speak of doesn't get you 30 students within a years time during the FIRST year you start teaching. I would find that to be insane if anyone attempted to argue it IS possible. Unless you get lucky and have another teacher send you all their students after they move or they retire.

I had to spend money to get my students. Many of my students travel a big distance to reach me. I had lots of families pass me up because I lived too far away from them.

So , yeah - within a year, advertising between 200 and 400 a month , I have gotten together 30 students within a year.

If anyone could explain to me how spending $400 a month when the advertising costs are quite well paid for with the income of my lessons is a bad idea ...


I don't have a problem with advertising at all..whatever works. But, you've only been teaching for a year?? That statement in bold is what I'm referring to, and perhaps I misunderstand your meaning. I just find it odd, if that's the case, why you are touting experience as being more important than education when it comes to being a good teacher, and yet you have neither?



Are you kidding me? Just because I have acquired 30 students in the last year does NOT mean I haven't taught BEFORE that year. You're doing everything you can to see only black and white here based off some words.

I ran tennis group clinics from the age of 15 to 18 , dealing with children and adults of all ages. My mentor at the time was somebody who had a degree in psychology and had over a dozen years of experience in teaching kids and adults and I learned a lot from him.

I also read things. You know, get differing opinions, even if I disagree with them ...

I also have been teaching piano since I was 16 on and off, acquiring students here and there.

I also have more passion and drive which has to at least count for something.

Quite contrary, I would say that old age is not at all a factor to how good someone is. They could be old, have more 'experience', but experience means nothing at all if you are aren't improving. The term 'experience' just means you've done it more than someone else, it doesn't specify how WELL you do it or if you have gotten WORSE due to lack of passion and interest.



You are right -- experience does not equate with how WELL you teach. Maybe you need to focus on letting people know WHAT KIND of experience you have teaching. I would venture to say that most of the people on this forum have a LOT of experience teaching PIANO and most of them are very good at it (regardless of how their google status is, etc). I do know that there are some teachers who are not very well versed or not very good teachers, but that is NOT the majority.

And to make a blanket statement that experience means nothing at all if you are not improving, seems to be a "dig" at those of us who are older than you and have more experience. You seem to THINK we are not improving when you don't know us at all.


lol, that wasn't supposed to be a dig at all, I would let you know if it was, but it was not. I was just speaking honestly about experience and age. Nothing at all to do with you... not everything I write is supposed to be fanatical and argumentative.
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1781255 - 11/01/11 04:40 PM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: Dustin Sanders]
pianomommy1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Florida
I am over this conversation. I have too much to do with my own music school to worry about this anymore.

You have been given good advice and I would implore you to take some of it.

As to your original questions == Do as you please -- only time will tell what will happen to your students and a raise in your pay. What works now may not work well in the future. You could raise your rates and be blown away with an increase but later they may all leave. You may choose to stay at your current rates and build your studio up with those and no change and you still may loose all them. Not a single person knows what the future holds.

Go with your gut and deal with the consequences either good or bad (I am not making a prediction here -- just saying what we all have to do)

Other than that--

I am done with this conversation (and NO -- I do not think that I am defeated in anyway nor do I think you have "won" this round -- I am just tired of dealing with petty things dealing with someone I don't know and never will.)
_________________________
Piano Teacher



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#1781344 - 11/01/11 07:16 PM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: Dustin Sanders]
MaryBee Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/21/09
Posts: 1246
Loc: Cleveland, OH
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
But it is not quite the same analogy, as the Prosperity Gospel is quite real and a very large portion of church goers are under the impression that if they tithe more, they will be higher up in some sort of hierarchy when it comes time to claim their place in Heaven. Or that they and their children will be blessed during their times on Earth.

Pro coaches don't generally make those sort of statements.

"It is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of God."

So, the Pastors are not following the same thing they are asking their congregational members and supporters to follow - in essence, they are hypocrites of the highest order, unlike the Coaches and Athletes.
Why do you even care? No one is being forced to do this. And if you're not a part of this organization, you are not being asked to tithe.
_________________________
Mary Bee
Current mantra: Play outside the box.
XVI-XXXVI

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#1781381 - 11/01/11 08:16 PM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: MaryBee]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: MaryBee
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
But it is not quite the same analogy, as the Prosperity Gospel is quite real and a very large portion of church goers are under the impression that if they tithe more, they will be higher up in some sort of hierarchy when it comes time to claim their place in Heaven. Or that they and their children will be blessed during their times on Earth.

Pro coaches don't generally make those sort of statements.

"It is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than to enter the Kingdom of God."

So, the Pastors are not following the same thing they are asking their congregational members and supporters to follow - in essence, they are hypocrites of the highest order, unlike the Coaches and Athletes.
Why do you even care? No one is being forced to do this. And if you're not a part of this organization, you are not being asked to tithe.


Must ... not ......... comment .... must resist .... the urge ..... the .. urge.....
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1781542 - 11/02/11 03:02 AM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: Dustin Sanders]
Arctic_Mama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/09
Posts: 379
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted By: bmbutler
Wow. Just finished reading this thread. Amazing how we let this person drag us down into a "discussion" of churches and the United States (which BTW, if you don't like it here, please leave. I will be happy to buy you a one way ticket! Sorry.....just sick and tired of the syncophant brats who do nothing (including work) but sit around and complain and listen to the national news without getting the facts!). Why not leave this where its lays and move on to more relevant teaching topics!


Imagine Atheists or Homosexuals publically telling Christians who speak out against them to 'leave the country'. What an absolutely bigoted statement you just wrote. Sycophant brat? Because I am liberal on my views of organized religion?

Or Simply because you don't agree with me!?


Seriously? You think more highly of yourself than you ought, and it makes you sound like a fool. This is a piano forum, and that is what unites the members when all the rest of our lives are very obviously diverse.

You're making enemies on here needlessly, because of carelessly spoken words.

As for your OP, raising a rate is entirely up to the teacher, but I'd caution against more than 10-15% increases in one year, if only because of the burden it places on the students. Most families have budgets for music lessons and changes can be difficult to assimilate - I would not personally want to alienate or unnecessarily burden the families trying to work with me by demanding significantly more than what they agreed to when they came into your service. Charge what you're worth and begin as you mean to go on (don't underprice yourself initially, of course).

There is nothing wrong with raising rates a bit, especially if your qualifications have changed or your costs of operation have increased. But huge leaps can be the straw that breaks the camels' back for many students who might love learning with you but can't just absorb another $20 or $50 a month for lessons. I know such a change would certainly burden my family, especially if we didn't have a few months to readjust the budget and come up with the extra.

That is reality for many families, and I think it is the most compassionate thing to consider in charging for lessons. Charge what you are worth, but do it in a way that takes into account the financial realities of the people you work with. Smaller increases are easier to swallow.
_________________________
Starting over after a decade-long hiatus from playing!
Yamaha CLP320

Burgmuller - Inquietude

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#1781562 - 11/02/11 04:32 AM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: Dustin Sanders]
kevinb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 1565
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
For instance, I don't have to have ever studied martial arts to know it helps a person in self defense. I also do not need to be part of a church in order to know what doctrine is or what sermons are about or about what is taught in a church.


I rather suspect that your understanding of both martial arts and religious communities are pretty superficial. With both these things you have to take part, and to be immersed in the culture, for a significant time, fully to understand what they're about. There's more to martial arts than 'helping with self-defense' (and it's questionable to what extent that's even true), and I suspect there's more going on in religious services than you perceive.

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#1781635 - 11/02/11 09:29 AM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: Arctic_Mama]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Arctic_Mama
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted By: bmbutler
Wow. Just finished reading this thread. Amazing how we let this person drag us down into a "discussion" of churches and the United States (which BTW, if you don't like it here, please leave. I will be happy to buy you a one way ticket! Sorry.....just sick and tired of the syncophant brats who do nothing (including work) but sit around and complain and listen to the national news without getting the facts!). Why not leave this where its lays and move on to more relevant teaching topics!


Imagine Atheists or Homosexuals publically telling Christians who speak out against them to 'leave the country'. What an absolutely bigoted statement you just wrote. Sycophant brat? Because I am liberal on my views of organized religion?

Or Simply because you don't agree with me!?


Seriously? You think more highly of yourself than you ought, and it makes you sound like a fool. This is a piano forum, and that is what unites the members when all the rest of our lives are very obviously diverse.

You're making enemies on here needlessly, because of carelessly spoken words.

As for your OP, raising a rate is entirely up to the teacher, but I'd caution against more than 10-15% increases in one year, if only because of the burden it places on the students. Most families have budgets for music lessons and changes can be difficult to assimilate - I would not personally want to alienate or unnecessarily burden the families trying to work with me by demanding significantly more than what they agreed to when they came into your service. Charge what you're worth and begin as you mean to go on (don't underprice yourself initially, of course).

There is nothing wrong with raising rates a bit, especially if your qualifications have changed or your costs of operation have increased. But huge leaps can be the straw that breaks the camels' back for many students who might love learning with you but can't just absorb another $20 or $50 a month for lessons. I know such a change would certainly burden my family, especially if we didn't have a few months to readjust the budget and come up with the extra.

That is reality for many families, and I think it is the most compassionate thing to consider in charging for lessons. Charge what you are worth, but do it in a way that takes into account the financial realities of the people you work with. Smaller increases are easier to swallow.


Carelessly spoken words? Enemies? Puhhhllleeaaaseeee.

I mean if a Christian wants to become an enemy of me because express a few strong opinions, then that is none of my concern.

Jesus did the same to the religious leaders of his time - They were corrupt and Jesus tried to talk sense into them. I have read the new testament front to back more than twice and have studied it far deeper than 90% of Christians on the planet and that is a fact. I have also read the vast majority of the Old Testament - You know, all that weird stuff in Leviticus about the burning flesh of the sacrifices pleasing the Lord and the mass genocide and rape that is commanded by Yahweh (You know, the name of the Christian God.)

I find both testaments to be moral abominations, and I am anything BUT uninformed.

If you are going to act like it's careless words, why don't you do some research and find out what Thomas Jefferson has said about Christianity and the New Testament. Surely you would disagree with him and say that HIS words are also careless and that he is making enemies ... this is almost laughable, really. Enemies???

Besides, That's like saying during Martin Luther King Jr's day, that he was carelessly speaking and making enemies of white people.

Or that advocating on behalf of women's rights was careless speak and making enemies of the male populations.

You're now putting yourself in a group called 'Religion' and saying that you will make enemies of that group if you show dissidence towards their shared beliefs.

It's a pack mentality, another reason why I am so vocal against Religious belief.
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1781638 - 11/02/11 09:35 AM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: kevinb]
Dustin Sanders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 479
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: kevinb
Originally Posted By: Dustin Sanders
For instance, I don't have to have ever studied martial arts to know it helps a person in self defense. I also do not need to be part of a church in order to know what doctrine is or what sermons are about or about what is taught in a church.


I rather suspect that your understanding of both martial arts and religious communities are pretty superficial. With both these things you have to take part, and to be immersed in the culture, for a significant time, fully to understand what they're about. There's more to martial arts than 'helping with self-defense' (and it's questionable to what extent that's even true), and I suspect there's more going on in religious services than you perceive.


Silence on a topic is not proof of ignorance, sir. You know this, why are you making the argument?

This is like saying taking piano lessons doesn't help with learning piano. Of COURSE studying martial arts helps with self defense.

Or are you saying that you would have no preference if you were forced to choose to fight between a piano teacher and a martial arts expert?

Please tell me, which would you choose?


Edited by Dustin Sanders (11/02/11 09:43 AM)
_________________________
An Eclectic Piano Teaching Experience







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#1781648 - 11/02/11 10:02 AM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: Dustin Sanders]
MomOfBeginners Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 125
Loc: California, USA
Dustin,

I'm not a piano teacher. I'm a parent who was searching for piano teachers and came upon this forum. There are different ways to express views. You give me the impression that you want to be offensive - rather than opening up views for discussion. As a parent, this lack of tact makes me want to avoid you as a teacher.
_________________________
Mom of Two Girls Who Used to Be Beginners

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#1781653 - 11/02/11 10:13 AM Re: A moral Dilemma of a possibly Real Situation [Re: Dustin Sanders]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2719
Loc: Not in Texas
This thread has long since outlived its usefulness and is closed.
_________________________
Greg

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