I think that every piano in the place has S&S on the fallboard.

That’s my thinking too, Ken… I’d be disappointed otherwise.

Rick

Rick and Ken,

Are you writing that based on all you know from reading here and elsewhere? (bear in mind that over the years there have been PW threads dedicated solely to the All-Steinway status of SUNY Potsdam, CCM at U. of Cincinatti, and U. of Victoria, to name three)

or

Are you writing that by trying to imagine that you are someone with no knowledge whatsoever beyond the fact that Steinway makes Steinway pianos?

If it's the first, I'm worried.

If it's the second, and you're imagining that you have no knowledge, is it really possible to do that? Isn't that just a way of giving your own opinions of the ethics of the All-Steinway program?

You guys are moderators. I don't think you'd want to give Mr. Bernard reason to think that the deck is stacked against him here.

I've stated my thoughts based upon what I thought before this issue became discussed here on the piano forum. Sure, there has been the eternal issue discussed about Steinway/Boston/Essex, but I don't remember it ever being applied to All Steinway Schools. So until the All Steinway School issue got raised, I never thought for a moment that the designation meant anything but ALL Steinway pianos with S&S on the fallboard.

Of course, until this subject came about, I didn't have much reason to think about it either!!

I agreed with Ken and said what I said about “All Steinway Schools” because I meant what I said about all Steinway schools.

I’ve played one Steinway grand piano in my lifetime (several years ago) and it was at college I was attending at the time. The music room was across the hall from my classroom and I’d get there early just so I could play that Steinway grand piano! In all honesty, I couldn't play that well at the time (and can't play all that well now ).

However, as far as I’m concerned, that was an “All Steinway school” because the only piano I ever saw was the “real” Steinway grand with S&S on the fall board. Had I saw a Steinway and an Essex or a Boston in the same room, I would not say it was an all Steinway school… I would say it was “a some real Steinways among others” school.

Rick

It's not hard to imagine what someone without knowledge of the precise meaning of "All Steinway Schools" would think. It's just common sense and the generally accepted meaning of English words.

In fact, I asked a highly intelligent person I was having the breakfast with today what he thought "All Steinway Schools" meant. He looked at me as if it was stupid question because the answer was so obvious to him(although he was wrong).

The "negative conseqences" could easily be expressed by students leaving school. Add to this a parents' revolts and the whole thing could turn out to be a PR desaster, none of which appears to be the case.

The other side of the story is one doesn't know who determines the mix of pianos in the first place. Colleges may well be tempted to have a prestigous make - but not the money to buy many of the higher priced ones.

I would be more careful to come to any type of conclusions about something that was pointed out by a competitor.

It may be a story allright - but not the "whole story"...

Norbert

For me the term "All Steinway School" also conjurs the thought of S&S on every fallboard. However, why all the carping over the presence of Boston and Essex pianos at "All Steinway Schools?" The way I see it the school has two reasons for acquiring the designation "All Steinway School," recruiting and fundraising. With regard to recruiting if a prospective student doesn't visit the school and see the Boston and Essex pianos then they get what they deserve. My impression from the previous thread was that students may be attracted to a school by the All S&S designation but the most important factor in the decision to attend would be faculty and finiancial aid. As far as fund raising is concerned I don't see that the presence of Boston and Essex pianos would be all that relevant in terms of prying money out of the hands of alumni and other benefactors. It would seem to me that most benefactors would assume the music school management were the experts and wouldn't really care what name was on the fallboard of practice room pianos. In other words when it comes to student recruiting those who visit campus will be aware of what the available resources are. Likewise when it comes to fund raising benefectors will assume the school is expert at managing its lown affairs. If the designation All Steinway School assists with either of those I fail to see a significant ethical issue. If any of that benefits the Steinway company so much the better (for them).

You know why. It was an inexpensive way to take a cheap shot at Steve Cohen's competition. It was very successful for him, both threads went viral. The guy from Steinway was smart to avoid this pit.

This negative selling is a real turn off for consumers. I don't understand why people in the industry think it works. Or does it?

Someone without the knowledge of what "All Steinway School" actually means probably also does not know the difference between a Boston and Steinway piano. If it said S&S on every fallboard I would expect it to say "All S&S School"

I don't think that's fair at all. You've posted many times on these two threads that it's all about Steve and sour grapes or Steve and FUD. He has no history here of anything like that.

There is an issue here. Personally, I don't think it's nearly as much Steinway as the schools who are buying their certification and their award, but everyone has a different take.

Maybe Steve hasn't captured the issue in a bottle, but it is very complex and illusive. Maybe he's looking at the wrong end of the beast. Maybe he's approaching from a delicate stance (to put it mildly), but let's be reasonable. It's fine to have point / counterpoint, but I don't think Steve or Steinway deserves finger-pointing.

That's why that thread really bugged me. That's why I self-moderated a half-dozen replies. Sophial expressed it best, when she wrote she felt used.

You are correct, Steve Cohen should be given the benefit of the doubt. Just as his competition should be.

"...When someone mentions, "All Steinway School", what is the first thought that goes through your head? ..."

First thought: that the Paris Conservatoire has lots of different kinds of pianos, and the kind of prestige you can't cut a purchase order for. Second thought: I should read The Piano Shop on the Left Bank again. I study music books and read for information... but reading for pleasure is still alive, and that story was a pleasure.

In this case I'm really wondering what the thread is all about.

"Blame" is or should of course never have been an issue for either Steve Cohen or Steinway.

In fact, the subject title may very well make for an interesting discussion.

But the discussion wasn't started by an independent source.

The very fact that the question was posed by a competitor or someone who is at least very active in the industry, IMHO contaminated or distorted the issue from the very beginning.

It's a prejudice that no normal court would accept.

Nor should the "court of pubic opinion" in Piano World.

Norbert

The way I see it, Steinway pianos are top of the line… great instruments with huge name brand recognition and prestige (lots of it). Boston and Essex are nice pianos too… very nice. But, they are not Steinways. They are designed by Steinway, so that does give them some kinsmanship to Steinway, I suppose.

As a moderator, I’ve more or less been accused of taking sides in this whole debate… which I have pretty much forgotten what it was all about to start with. So, lots of members here are mad at me for removing the other thread, and some folks are mad at me for stating my opinion about the name on the fallboard.

I guess it all boils down to sales tactics and marketing ploys, which I don’t know a whole lot about, though I did take some marketing classes in college. Took some economics classes too… a lot more to that than I ever realized.

The debate goes on… I reckon. I hope it can remain civil… there is nothing wrong with an occasional spat, but some folks here want to see blood and guts; they want to crush their opponent and bring them to their knees and destroy them, if possible. I don’t think that is what this forum is all about.

Take care,

Rick

Of all the interesting things here, to me the very most interesting, although the 'sidest' of side issues, is:

How does one know stats like that?

I'm not doubting it -- just struck.


(edit) Never mind -- I think I see how.

Granted, but who here is truly independent? Everyone and his mother-in-law has an opinion of this one.

At this point it's not important who started it. Let's aim for that "interesting discussion".

Here's a case that is probably known to you, Norbert.

The University of Victoria became Canada's first All-Steinway School in 2008. I believe it's still the only one, at least today. It was #99. Now there are 135 worldwide, with more in the works. (pretty rapid growth!)

In this case, the highest -ranking member of the committee, Dean Sarah Blackstone, was not hauled into a Steinway set in NY and asked the dreaded question: "What does becoming an All-Steinway School mean to you?"

Rather, the action takes place on campus and is covered by two independent news sources, and the Steinway retailer. Because of the variety, we get a less one-dimensional view of things. There are Steinway press releases as well, but those are about as interesting to read as actuarial tables.

We get a look at the campus and see actual living breathing students (I hope their careers aren't ruined by those pesky Boston pianos that they didn't know about when they applied) We get an informal interview with a piano professor who opines that a Steinway has lots of color and can let the student hear with his ears what he might only hear in his head on a lesser piano (I can't argue with that), We also get a clear picture of the Steinway / Boston instrument count (15 / 45), the range of prices, and details of who supplied the pianos (some the local dealer; some from NY). The stats come from the canada.com link.

In an interview with Dean Blackstone, she mentions "our strategic initiatives" (not much difference between college and corporate visions these days), but more than makes up for it when she declares "our Steinway and BOSTON pianos" on camera.

We even get a cameo appearance by PW member and Steinway exec Bob snyder, who has been a reliable source of factual information here in the past on the rare occasions he has posted..

But best of all, we get a Shaw TV reporter (is that local cable, Nobert?) talking about Steinway being the Cadillac of pianos while a parade of crated Boston verticals floats by behind her on dollies. How's that for transparency? You NEVER but NEVER get this sort of image on a Steinway-produced video, but this amusing image along with everything else gives the Boston a life of its own instead of being shut in a dark closet.

If you only watch one tiny clip here, check out that parade of Cadillacs. It's at the beginning of the video link from Shaw TV.

from Shaw TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWRQG5n7yJQ


from TomLeeMusic (local dealer who handled the sale)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWT6i3h74Io


from canada.com

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolon...d7-963b37a41432

You guys are INSANE!!!!!!!

First thought: surprise that people think that the Steinway name (NY Steinway) is still of paramount importance. It once was, but the NY Steinway (at least in the opinion of two knowledgeable piano people that I'm aware of) is not what it used to be.

Second thought is what Shakespeare wrote, "much ado about nothing".

A lot of industry people would not say that Steinway is unimportant. They would say that control of the concert stage paralleled by control of school placements would be an ominous sign. I think the perception depends on the perspective.

Glenn,

You're in Victoria B.C., so you're at least an interested bystander. You're also into music. What's your take on those U. of Victoria links I posted. Is Uvic's decision much ado about nothing.? Is there deception in the information presented in those links? Is Uvic doing something useful for its students,faculty, and community or is it just buying a stamp of approval?

I watched the 3 videos and felt that, to their credit, UVic's presentation of the program was well within the standards I think public institutions should maintain. This assumes that no Essex pianos were in the mix.

I still would have a problem in any claim to be an "All Steinway School", as to me, "all Steinway" means all Steinway & Sons.

The presentation focused on the quality of Steinway & Sons pianos and the advantages of that quality and their image, and did nor distinguish the lesser (although good)quality of the Bostons. However I must admit, if I were in their shoes, I might have done the same.

Honestly I have very little to do with UVic (except for doing structural engineering work with contractors and consultants on UVic buildings). I think the real player in town is the Victoria Conservatory of Music; they are located downtown and hold frequent concerts for the public. The VCM has grown substantially since I moved here eleven years ago, but don't have the finances that UVic has (government).

http://www.vcm.bc.ca/

As for your last questions, I'm really not qualified as I simply don't know.


I'm listening to the YouTube blurb as I type this:

1) One of Dr. Blackstone's first comments is, "having the very best available in Steinway and Boston pianos". Hmmm, now it seems that Boston is right up there with Steinway. I'm hoping that she doesn't believe all of that.

2) The video would seem to have been produced by Tom Lee Music. I am reasonably well acquainted with Simon Phillips - he is a decent and honest person. I often stopped in to "chat pianos" with him well before TLM purchased the local Yamaha dealer where he was manager (they moved to a location much farther from me, so I rarely go there). Being purchased by TLM a few years ago, this dealer became a Steinway dealer.

3) The comments from Dr. Gerald King somewhat sound like they were well rehearsed - that's just my personal opinion, and I may be wrong.

4) Overall, the video seems just too slick to not be contrived. Again, my personal observation.


The Canada.com blurb is equally interesting (nice word for something I don't want to say):

1) The last time I was in TLM, they seemed to have too many grand pianos for a small city like ours. So I suspect that the Steinways and Bostons came from local stock (I've seen a number of both there).

2) I'm don't know how many concert grands UVic has (I know of two). Interesting side story: a new concert grand arrived a while back at Uvic, and "someone" applied "something" to the hammers to harden them - the hammers had to be replaced. I wonder why the music dept. was not amused?

There are many alternatives to Steinway, however out here at the extreme west end of Canada, dealers in fine German (for example) pianos are virtually non-existent. In 1978 I came across a 5'-8" Grotrian Steinway in Vancouver - it was absolutely marvelous compared to my then brand new 5'-8" Yamaha G2.

You may know that Tom Lee is the major Yamaha dealer in BC, and used to be the Bosendorfer dealer, but AFAIK, they succumbed to SS. Now that Yamaha has Bosendorfer in their stable, the future is going to be interesting isn't it? Note to UVic: I hope you saved some money - I think Yamaha is going to be calling with their Bosies.

Selling the odd SS may be "a feather in the cap" for Tom Lee Music, but out here, the real money is in Yamahas.

Glenn

My respects!

Norbert

Thank you Glenn and Steve.

I guess I addressed the question to Glenn since he's a neighbor of the particular All-Steinway School. But really, if anyone chooses to take the time to examine a case where the All-Steinway School designation was received with 25% Stewinay and Sons pianos, your reactions to the facts will probably help keep the thread on topic.

from Shaw TV (independent news source)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWRQG5n7yJQ


from TomLeeMusic (local dealer who handled the sale)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWT6i3h74Io


from canada.com (independent news source)

http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolon...d7-963b37a41432


Steve, I take the name of the program as a given. I imagine the folks at Steinway have thoroughly investigated any legal ramifications of using that name and are comfortable with it.

I'd say the name is a moot point unless the client schools don't like it, and of course that is decidedly not the case.

I'll stick up another school overnight for target practice rational discussion.

Except the discussion has not been on this thread or others about the legal ramifications of the name. It's been about the transparency of the phrase "All Steinway Schools".

What about the Vancouver dealerships of Sauter, Blüthner, Grotrian, Bechstein and Fazioli (from Italy)?

When talking to the parents of some our area's most talented kids who plan to further their studies at College level, the name of pianos used in department never seems to come up.

I happen to know of several highly accomplished kids who have, for the most part, applied to Eastern Canadian and U.S. universities based on that institution's inherent reputation.

This should not take away from College staff to feel proud about getting new pianos for their school by a famous maker, but present or future applicants may not pay as much attention to this matter as is perhaps hoped for.

On the other hand, education *is* becoming increasingly a business here and we are getting many student from overseas.

In this regard, the name Steinway may certainly be an additional attraction. It's perfectly fine by me.

Wondering if the C.Bechsteins, Boesendorfers Steingraebers, Faziolis, Sauters, Bluethners, Estonias and other "un-pronouncable names" could even provide the numbers required...

Norbert

Norbert:

I live at the extreme west end of Canada - you're just close.

These are all beautiful pianos. But mention their names to people on the street, and you'll draw a blank from most. Mention the names Yamaha and Steinway, and most people will recognize them - particularly Yamaha.

To repeat, I've never played or heard a 5'-8" piano that came close to that Grotrian Steinweg (that name was on the fallboard - I've heard that SS has threatened them legally over the use of the name Steinweg, so that now they just use the name Grotrian in the US - that's like calling a Bosendorfer an Ignaz).

It's my very personal opinion that for "bang for the buck", and practical access to technicians that know the piano, Yamaha may be a better choice than Steinway.

I can see it coming (tongue in cheek a bit here): "All Yamaha" schools of music - featuring an Imperial in the concert hall. Hmmmmm, is something backward here?

Glenn