Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Bad pin block?

Hi!
This is my first post at this forum. I am not a piano tuner, but right now I've been studying the art of tuning by myself and have been trying to tune a piano I bought for tuning purposes only. It started with an idea that I should try to tune my mothers piano which hasn't been tuned for over a decade and nobody plays on the instrument either. So as with many other things piano tuning has become a sort of obsession to me right now, a problem that has to be solved...
So I bought a piano (Swedish brand) for 650 Swedish crowns (about $100)which I now struggle with. Besides bad tuning, I suspect that the pin block is not in good shape. So my questions are: Is there a way to easily inspect the pin block? How can you tell when the pinblock is cracked without disassembling the whole piano? Is it worth to change the pins before you know if the pin block is cracked or not? How much does new pins cost if you change them all? Is it possible to detect loose pins or a cracked pin board aurally?
My piano sounds kind of honkey tonkey, can that come from such pin/pinblock problems i mentioned? I know that you think it's most likely bad tuning behind that honkey tonk sound :-) and that might be true, but I suspect that there are some problems with the instrument too. It's not so receptive to tuning and goes out of tune quickly. I thought one of the main reasons for the honkey tonk sound was that my tuning of the unisons was really bad but even a single string can sound bad, like a German Stuka bomber from WW2.
I expect to get mocked, so you have to flame me hard to hurt me... ;-) I have most respect for some tuners in here. I've listened to some of your work in here and am amazed over the precision you can achieve tuning aurally. I would appreciate if I can get some honest and benevolent answers to my questions.

The best way to assess a pin block is to tune the piano. You may not have the experience to do the assessment, so it would be worth your while to hire someone to do it. Trying to learn to tune on a piano that cannot be tuned is nothing but an exercise in frustration, and so the money that you spend on this will be invaluable. It would also give you the opportunity to observe professional technique, and perhaps, to gain a mentor, particularly if you shop around for a technician who is open to the idea.

If after 2 weeks ago on your piano again appear "funny sounds" this is a bad diagnosis for pinblock

Thanks for your answer. I suspect I have such a piano you are talking about. I have not spent a fortune on the instrument and the 100 bucks is totally worth my experience so far. After all I've learnt something and had some tuning practice.
In Sweden nowdays people are throwing pianos away, some of them are good instruments. I think the major reason is that people favour digital instruments, which after all have some benefits compared to acoustic ones. I will probably do like many other, throw the piano away, and get another one for hardly no money at all.

My area isn't exactly crowded with technician and I have been talking with a couple of them and I feel that none of them are interested in mentorship. When I hint them that I explore piano tuning by my own I can smell their skepticism and pity. :-)

Why don't you try tipping the piano on it's back, and soaking the tuning pins with super thin "superglue". That should tighten the pins enough so you can practice tuning. People in the USA simply pass the old pianos around - I've been called out to the same piano three times in three different homes! We may all regret disposing of all these old pianos one day.

Do you have a piano technician's organization in Sweden? Our Piano Technicians Guild is helpful in many ways. www.PTG.org.

This fact (I agree with you it is a fact) is disappointing to me. I hope I'm not crossing any lines here of appropriateness but I would like to make an analogy to many people apparently preferring internetsex over the real thing.

Cheers,
Kees

This made me chuckle a bit, but there is a grey area in regards to digital vs real for many people that I like to promote to my customers...why not have both. I find myself playing my DP more often lately than my acoustics. With a headset on I play as loud as I want and it does not disturb other people in the household. The slight difference for me on the above mentioned analogy is that I don't have to quickly hit the off switch on my DP, if my spouse happens to walk in the room.

I have considered the thin superglue option. I have heard about the method but can't quite comprehend how it works. If I have got it right, a homogeneous metal pin is tightly driven into a thick block of laminated wood (a construction that seems, for a laymen, like you are looking for trouble). When I pour superglue between the metal and wood, doesn't the pin get stuck? I am supposed to being able to turn that pin when I'm tuning. And if I with force succesfully turn the pin, doesn't the glue release it's extra grip between the two materials? I understand that it can't work that way, but how exactly can the superglue tighten the pins and still letting me turn them?

I believe we have an organization but it doesn't seem particularly active.

The objective way is to measure the torque of the pins with a low range torque wrench and a proper socket - one made for tuning pins. Call your local tuner and ask for an evaluation.

I wondered about that, too. The answer seems to be that the shear strength of the superglue is surprisingly low, and yet it fills in between the pin and wood creating a much larger area in perfect molded to fit contact, producing more friction. So, you can break the pins loose, and they hold better thereafter.

Yep, superglue does the trick. I've used it on many, many pianos and it's unbelievable how it can make a loose pin tunable again. I've saved many old pianos that weren't worth fixing and gave it a new lease on life! I don't even put the uprights on their back, the superglue seems to wick right in there.

I think I'll try the superglue. How much of that stuff should I use per pin?

You won't need to use very much per pin. You'll need to find water-thin CA glue. If you do a search in the Piano World Forums for CA glue, you will find a lot of information about it.

Hari,

You should be able to find the extra-thin superglue at a local hobby supply shop. That's where I found mine. Model builders (e.g. model airplane enthusiasts) use it for joint "wicking", i.e. letting the thin glue seep into a joint that is already in position - and that's exactly what you want to do too.

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. I actually bought a little bottle with a fine spout - Loctite superglue precision before I read your posts. I think it has the right viscosity, but I have to get that confirmed before I try. Found som specifications: Viscosity (ISO 3219) - 50-120 mPas. Waddaya think about that?

Another thing I want to share (if anyone is interested) is that my guitar tuning has elevated dramatically since I started to study and practise piano tuning. Understanding the equal temperament, a better tuning sequence, beat comprehension and interval checks has contributed to a consistently better sounding guitar. In fact it sounds better tuning it aurally than using ETD:s. :-)

Gee, I can no longer tune a guitar! My lack of understanding of the tolerances keeps me from doing it. I guess it is different stages in the learning process.

No surprise. In the end, the human ear is the judge.

BDB tunes his guitar in reverse well......no, let's not go there! You put as much super glue on the pin as will soak in. I sometimes do two passes. Don't get the fumes in your eyes or lungs. Use a fan to blow the fumes away from you. The piano can be tuned within 15 min of application - but the fumes will still be escaping, so be careful. There is no viscosity listed on my bottle. It just says "super thin".

I've seen some super-thin CAs with viscosities as low as 5 cP (5 mPa.s), e.g. this one:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=7172
But I wasn't able to find such a low viscosity in my local hobby shop. The one I bought was, if I remember correctly, in the same range as yours. It still looks water-thin if you wiggle the bottle. I haven't used it on a piano, but for several other "seeping in" applications. And it sure seeps in quickly! So I think you should be fine.