Dear all,

1) When looking at formula / rules, for building chords in a book that I have (regarding C chords in this case), I see notes raised and lowered which then become flat or sharp. If chords come from a scale, and the scale of C has no sharps and flats, how is that possible? I thought all notes had to derive from a given scale. In short, then, what part of the music puzzle have I apparently missed?

2) The next question may lead to a "history of music in the West" discourse, & it is not my intent to post that here, if in the wrong forum for such a query. The now "mature" rock and roller at this keyboard, if thinking in terms of major & minor chords, would tend to think in terms of a (natural) minor scale. If a major scale has a related minor scale, and I think only of the natural or so-called pure minor scale, is that assumption correct?

I have read that all three types of minor scales are in fact related to the corresponding major scale. Why three, though? Were the bees busy pollinating on that fateful day long ago, and gave us 3 minor scales for this or that matching major, lest the major scale get too big for its britches and think it were king of all it surveyed? And, does one see music that would indicate one of the other two minor scales, rather than the minor natural scale that I would off-hand assume to be called for? And, if so, what would one see in sheet music that would indicate such a thing? Or, does that arise, only within certain types of music?

I also just recently read that, in fact, with the minor scales things in fact become murkier / more complex. True? If so, that is another thing (in my ignorance) that I certainly would not have been aware of.

When I come across the "Huh?" moment when reading about music, I may think of off-the-cuff questions, but I'd like to learn about why we have such and such as a given starting point in the Western music system even if only as an academic point of interest.

If anyone cares to respond, don't use big words / terms from college music theory class please, or you'll whiz past this rookie's understanding quickly. ;-)

Thanks, for your help, with any of the above.
--Pat

Hi Pat, we get lots of theory questions here, and you may find you get more helpful responses by asking a little at a time.

I will deal with this question only.

Within c major strictly speaking there are no sharps and flats. The only C chord in C major is 'C major chord'. Any tune more complex than Frere Jacques in C will have more chords (e.g. F, D min, etc).

All the other C chords in your book will be used in other keys. E.g. C7 will be used in F major. C min will be used in Bb maj.

The trouble with theory is you need to accept some things that don't make much sense, in order to get to the point where you understand it. In short, in the 500 piece puzzle you have missed about 495 pieces. Don't worry, we all start at the beginning.

The natural minor is the only ‘relative’ that requires no accidentals. For example the A natural minor scale is all white notes on piano. The harmonic minor will have an accidental to raise the 7th scale degree ½ step, wich creates a leading tone.

Most western music (in minor key) uses the harmonic minor. Consider the three primary chords that form the harmony for any song: I (tonic), IV (subdominant), and V (dominant). In order for the V to sound dominant, it needs to be a major chord. In A minor, The V chord would be Emajor which has a G# in it and so requires an accidental because G is natural in the key signature. G# is also the 7th scale degree of A harmonic minor.

Hi Pat,

Very short answer about minor scales: The minor forms evolved over time because composers of early periods were not always able to achieve the sound they wanted with the natural minor scale only. I read about all this but it would be too long for me to summarise or quote from a theory book. As StudioJoe mentioned, "Most western music uses the harmonic minor" so I would concentrate on learning those scales. I have read that the melodic minor scale is used in a modified form in jazz - they use the same notes going down the scale as they do going up, whereas the strict form uses the natural minor scale going back down.

A handy reference book to have around is "The complete book of Scales, Chords, Arpeggios and Cadences" from the "Alfred's basic piano library". It is not expensive (10$) and truly worthwhile. And as I mentioned in an earlier post to you, get Mark Sanecki's "Elementary music rudiments" if you don't aleready have it.

John

The others have address your question well. I just wanted to add that the 3 modes of a minor scale come from differing needs in creating music.

First, you have the 'natural' minor, which means it has the same key signature as the relative Major scale with no alterations. You're simply changing the tonic scale degree to a minor 3rd below the Major tonic.

If you play the typical i iv v i progression, however, you will notice that these 3 chords are all minor. It's important that you play them in this manner to hear what's needed. When you go from v-i you can tell that there isn't as much 'pull' as you have from a Major V-I cadence. That is because there is no leading tone. In fact, if you play the natural minor scale and stop on the 7th scale degree, you certainly don't feel the need to play the tonic, whereas if you do the same in the relative Major, you definitely want to play tonic! This is the function of the leading tone: it leads you to tonic, and its absence makes music have much less sense of tension-release that is found in most western music. Therefore, if you raise the 7th scale degree, all of a sudden you have a major V chord (in upper case). So now it's "harmonic" minor because you have changed the harmony.

Of course, playing the harmonic minor as a scale it sounds very strange when you go from the 6th scale degree to the raised 7th, and is reminiscent of arabic music. It's great for that and you hear it all the time when composers try to recreate music from the Middle East. However, in western music it is quite awkward. So to fix this, if you raise the 6th scale degree along with the 7th, you have a very nice melodic line. In reality what you're doing is stealing the last part of the paralell major key. In the case of a minor, you're borrowing from A Major for the tail end of the scale. Which is why if you play the raised 7th & 6th scale degrees descending it will trick your ears into thinking you're in A Major, but then when you hit that lowered 3rd scale degree it throws you back into minor. To avoid this jarring transition, you lower both the 6th and 7th scale degrees back to "natural" on the way down when playing melodic minor.

whoever came up with the major/minor names is stupid. i mean they couldn't think of something better. i mean is this baseball like when your playing in a minor key its easier than the major key? it makes no sense to me and they are only names because playing in minor is actually a lot more complex than playing in major.

Morediene, thanks for taking the time to explain the minor forms history and purpose so well! I hadn't the strength this morning and certainly would not have done such a good job as you did

I play around with modes (Dorian, Phrigian, etc...) quite a bit these days so talk about strange and beautiful scales! some of these modes are really nice sounding

John

Yes, but please let's not call them 'modes' or we'll need to start a new forum - the Confused Adult Beginner Forum!

Dear all,

Thanks, for your replies; it is now clear that I've missed all pieces in a puzzle (that has an indeterminate number of parts). LOL! Back to the books then, indeed, for this rookie.

John -- Yes, thanks. I do plan to order the two books that you mentioned.


Can't say if anything will help, at this point; I now feel even less smart, & greatly humbled, after getting answers. Now, I have to learn the "rest of the story," to comprehend what you have said. And, so it goes...

Again, thanks for your replies; your time & courtesy is appreciated.
--Pat

I think this is an excellent point. I have often found that, since words have more than one (tho related) meanings that they are confusing if someone first thinks of them in a context that doesn't quite make sense here. I learned much of my math, early on, because the words made sense to me. Then we came to the Pythagorean theorem and I didn't realize Pythagorus was a person, so the word and the concept made no sense at all to me, and my teacher finally told me to just write it down and not worry about it And most often another word could have been used, but whoever first named a concept picked the current one instead. But then someone else would have been confused

If I had to guess, and I do, I'd guess that it's called minor because the second step is a half-tone rather than a whole-tone - the first interval of a third is "less" than the first interval of a third in a "major" scale. But, as joeb84 says, the scale as a whole is no less complex or easier than a major one.

Even the concept of "high" and "low" can be confusing in terms of singing or the piano. There really isn't a "higher" on the piano keyboard - it's just further right - and that is sometimes confusing for new students.

Just some thoughts were triggered by joe's comments.

Cathy

jotur / Cathy / Pythagorus,

Stop there, step away from the minor naming convention, high this and low that, lest we end up with the "Confused Adult Beginner Forum!" that ten left thumbs doesn't want - and rightfully so. LOL!

As to how much "Python" math (or coding language) that you've used since school... well, my good mate and all-round rascal at large Rostosky once told me this: if you were the one who invented such and such, were playing it one fine day atop the hill and someone came by and asked about it - you were then ipso facto the expert on said invention. Whatever words you uttered that fateful day, were carved in stone for the ages to torment / confuse students through the coming centuries. And I hope that person now rots in a special circle of 5ths deep in the bowels of Dante's Inferno.

Yes, I jest about that, and you're right about this or that term being used and it is or can be a tad confusing to some of we beginners.

Regards,
--Pat

When I was in a college freshman speech class I decided that Pythagorus made up the theorem because people laughed at the way his nose was shaped - so he called it a "right triangle" in order to make it sophisticated and special.

Dumb, I know, but it helped me!

Okay, okay, I'll go read the Sunday newspaper and clear my mental palate

Cathy

Did someone mention moi? just to clarify a little bit, on what my quote actually said, (to avoid confusion and possibly start a discuusion on a totally different subject!)

This was the quote in its absolute entirety: "Historically, when each instrument was in its infancy ( go back in time to the beginings of each instrument) what else was there but experimentation and the desire to produce something of interest or beauty?

what I mean is this,, somewhere back in time there had to be a guy that invented say the harp ( or lute or whatever)
that guy had to be experimenting on it, maybe on the top of a hill one day...
At that moment in time, maybe someone heard and went to see what it was....
At that moment in time, the guy experimenting on it had to be the expert so to speak, because he had invented it and no one else had had a go on it... he knew the most as far as that instrument was concerned..

Obviously much has been learnt since those moments, BUT, not many folks on these forums, say "go experiment, just get stuck in, the more hours you spend doing it , the sooner you will find something that you invented is pleasing "


The "dantes circle of 5ths bit" must not be credited to me... as I did not say that bit.
lol.

Pat, out of curiosity, are you looking at chords in a guitar book? I ask because they often have all the chords of C, G, E, F etc on seperate pages, and I may understand where the confusion is coming from, in relation to how some C chords have notes in them that dont fit into a C major scale.

If this is the case, its a simple misunderstanding of something basic , that can be explained more easily, certainly than bringing pythag into the equation!!!

Rossy!

1) Pardon me; no intent to misquote you, my lord.
2) You can allow me to go down in flames/fame/infamy for the bit about ..."Dante's Circle of 5ths" as that was my daft bit (or byte) that I'm aware of, at any rate.

3) Nope - chords that I reference, came from a piano book that I have. In my ignorance at the moment, I just didn't see how the # and b "bidness" arose in the C chord structure. Others pointed out pertinent info, in that regard. I, um, have a bit to learn (before I again point my mouth in the wrong direction lest it accidentally discharge dum-dum bullets at two cents a dum)... to paraphrase MAD magazine.

Regards,
--Pat

How about ionian and aeolian? Is that better?

And the beautifull "dorian" which I would personally prefer to be called Dorothea, but there you go...

Pat, no worries, it's just that whilst fending off flack that I instigated in the first place, I thought it may get confusing if I had to fend of flack that possibly was due for you lol..


does your book state things like "chords permissable in the key of C major" "chords found in the key of D major" etc??

If it does, take two of the simplest like chords in C major. and chords in G major... and you should start to see a "a pattern" to test if you are seeing the pattern, look at the chords allowable in D major, the same pattern or rules apply...

Not really, you're still playing 7 different keys, some black and some white. You just have to spend time to learn the combinations correctly. Minor isn't harder to play, although it may at first require more thought. But that is solved with concentrated practice.

I love different modes! They are very unique sounding. Perhaps this is why I like listening to Impressionist music so much because of their use of modes.

And to tlt: I call them modes but I see how that could be confusing. Technically, "minor" scale is the Aeolian mode and "major" is Ionian mode. So I agree, the word "mode" is usually used for scales built upon different tonics within a key signature, and not the different versions of the Aeolian mode available. If we want to get technical about it

How about 'flavours'?

I was trying to say something about music theory the other day without using the adjectives 'major' or 'dominant' and I got completely tongue-tied.

Rossy,

Looking at formula for what I call the C chord family (not to be confused with The Adams Family), and variants (C7, C9, Caug) I seized up suddenly noticing sharps & flats. Looking back, the initial thought perhaps was of how the melody stems from a given scale; from there I got my exercise of leaping to conclusions and thought - well, then, how could the chords have notes flat or sharp if based on the C scale? Stupid is, as stupid does, in my case I fear. I mixed things up, which won't be the first of last time, I would guess. (Humming "dumber by the day" set to melody of Feeling stronger Everyday / Chicago).

--Pat / slinking back to corner now, donning the Dunce Cap.

* And if I hear cheap jokes about "Mixed-Up-A-Lot-Ian" modes I will be sorely vexed. LOL!

Knowing some of my students, they'd start calling natural "banana" and harmonic "blueberry" or something . But whatever works!

I still don't know what to think about the idea of things being based on the C scale. It happens that on the piano the C scale reflects major scales in a way that no black keys have to be used so it's a good reference point.

The major scale has a particular set of intervals. I'll use "H" for half step,and "W" for whole step. So you have:
C(W)D(W)E(H)F(W)G(W)A(W)B(H)C
The piano plus C scale give us a handy reference point if we forget what the halfs and the wholes are, because it becomes visible. But that series is the same for any major scale.

A chord which is formed from the notes of this major scale and does not contain notes not in that scale (diatonic chords) will end up being defined by where the whole steps and half steps fall.

I CEG - you hear and see a major chord
ii DFA - you hear a minor chord
etc.
Therefore you get the series of chords I ii iii IV V vi viio (diminished)

Our notation system is nicely designed to fit with major scales. If you want G major, and stick a sharp in the key signature so that every F is F#, you will end up with the right intervals. If you stick in another sharp on C as C# and start on D, then the intervals are perfect for D major. It's just how it works.

The major chord was originally one of a bunch of modes. The other mode we borrowed from that time was the Aeoliean, which corresponds to the natural minor. If you take that C scale and start a third lower going from A to A, you get this mode.

A(W)B(H)C(W)D(W)E(H)F(W)G(W)A

This one also works nicely with key signatures. It's like you are playing C major, but starting two notes lower. That is why these pairs have the same key signature: C major & A minor; G major & E minor; F major & D minor etc. Each minor key starts 3 notes down, a minor third below.

You will notice that in C major, there is a half step from B to C. B is known as the "leading note" because it leads into the tonic (C). But in A minor, G to A is a whole tone, and this doesn't provide the same movement. You also don't get a dominant chord (seven chord) which also leads into the tonic. So the "harmonic minor" takes care of that. We raise the G to G# and voila - we have a leading note. The reason we have to do that is because we are borrowing a key signature that is best suited for the relative major. There is no G# in the key signature of C major (relative of A minor) so we have to add an accidental. So now we have:

A(W)B(H)C(W)D(W)E(H)F(3 half tones)G#(H)A

Your V7 chord is EG#BD ... the G# is in there and you're all set.

Other times it is handier to have the melody be natural minor, and other times you want the leading note, but the awkward leap from F to G# sounds out of place so you sharp the F# as well. This is also done for the sake of some chord progressions. Then you have what we learn is the "melodic minor"

A(W)B(H)C(W)D(W)E(W)F#(W)G#(W)A

In all three "minor" scales, your tonic chord is minor, and that alone gives it a minor kind of feel to it.

Somebody pointed out that the minor scale is a kind of chameleon that keeps changing its shape, that there "isn't" really such a thing as the minor scale types we learn, and the only real thing is that beginning.

This is getting borian.

keystring,

Well thought out, and concisely phrased; thank you.

====

ten left thumbs,

You're right, we're getting "borian" so we'll put paid to this topic, and move along. ;-)

====

Again, thanks to all for comments / replies.

--Pat

yes. all this music theory is boring me as well. i just wanna make music. is that so hard? oh yea it is kinda