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#1781433 - 11/01/11 09:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scep, you never warn us that you've got new recordings posted on you box.net. I'll check it out.


Oops. After you posted Solar, and I wrote about your take, I uploaded these and I thought I posted that I was doing so. I actually forgot that I uploaded them too. Weird.

So yes, both are from jams with these guys I've been playing with. As you can hear I'm not really solid with the changes and what to do with that CmMaj7 to Fmaj. To my ears its never sounded right, and I'm still struggling to find a way to make it musical. I swear that chord (Cm) was supposed to be some sort of sus or simply a Maj chord, and somehow got recorded wrong and the rest is history.

Anyone know the true history of this tune? Anyone know of a similar chord progression (just the first four bars--the rest has been used on a number of different tunes)
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#1781440 - 11/01/11 09:55 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: jazzwee
Scep!
Very pretty version of Body and Soul and I loved that unusual rhythmic feel for solo piano. Your acoustic touch is really good. I think that your playing sounds really good and melodic with less 16ths then this proves it.


I enjoyed the vibe on that one as well. Nice.



Thanks! Has anyone heard Esperanza Spalding's version in 5/4? She's an amazing bassist and singer.

Scott asked earlier who I listen to for ballads and I realized that what I usually do is think about Chopin, Scriabin and other Romantic piano composers, as well as Satie, and some other more 'modern' ones. So many rich voicings and voice leading to really augment one's jazz vocab.
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#1781445 - 11/01/11 10:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Jazz+ Offline
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I dislike the first 5 bars of Solar too. It sounds awkward to me, so I avoid the tune.

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#1781454 - 11/01/11 10:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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I thought it was just me. I thought the chords simple enough but yes, in reality it's not that easy of a tune to make sense of. So I too have avoided it.

But Chris posted it first and started the ball rolling. It really cycles through the changes pretty quickly and you're back to the top so fast that it's hard not to become repetitive.

Now though, I have taken it as a challenge and am still working on it.
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#1781591 - 11/02/11 07:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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I must say I love the tune - and those first 5 bars smile
One way to look at them is to view the chordal passage in a triadic fashion.

CmMaj7: G major triad
Gm7: Bb major triad
C7: A major triad
FMaj7: C major triad

Do you see a connection? smile

(LH plays the chord, RH plays the triad [though in the first chord I prefer a Cm6/9 in the LH, and let the RH carry/hold/play the 7th)
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#1781593 - 11/02/11 07:21 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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I have never thought of Solar as having awkward or strange changes, but now you mention it I can't think of any other tunes that go from tonic minor to subdom major. There must be some though even if I can't think of them offhand.
I did recently find out that Solar was actually written by Chuck Wayne and not Miles though. It seems Miles was pretty good at putting his name to other peoples compositions - tune up, four, blue in green are all further examples.


Edited by beeboss (11/02/11 09:54 AM)
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#1781601 - 11/02/11 07:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Wiki: "It is now well known that his tune "Sonny" (not SUnny), named for Sonny Berman, was appropriated by Miles Davis – who recorded and took composer credit for it as "Solar".
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#1781656 - 11/02/11 10:19 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: beeboss
I have never thought of Solar as having awkward or strange changes,.


I haven't either. I don't lock myself into always playing C Melodic Minor on the Cm Maj7 for the 2 bars. Sometimes I'll play off the C harmonic Minor, C Minor Aeolian (Eb Scale) or C diminished, or play C Dorian too. I look for common melody notes or harmonic structures between the Cm and the Gm7. I might even skip over the Gm7 and play off an altered chord on the C7 for two bars. I could do a mix of starting the line with dorian or melodic minor and then going to diminished or vice versa.

A lot has to do with how the music is flowing (or not frown ) , the bass player and drummer, my mood or what I'm hearing that day. I try not to force things. How you connect lines & harmonies are very important--some days it's happening for me, other days not.
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#1781663 - 11/02/11 10:48 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
jazzwee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris

I haven't either. I don't lock myself into always playing C Melodic Minor on the Cm Maj7 for the 2 bars. Sometimes I'll play off the C harmonic Minor, C Minor Aeolian (Eb Scale) or C diminished, or play C Dorian too.

I look for common melody notes or harmonic structures between the Cm and the Gm7. I might even skip over the Gm7 and play off an altered chord on the C7 for two bars. I could do a mix of starting the line with dorian or melodic minor and then going to diminished or vice versa.


That's really good advice. I've noticed the first 2 bars start to sound same-old-same-old after several choruses. That opened my eyes up a little bit with the flexible approach on those chords.

I guess it depends on what the bass player is playing. Unfortunately, I'm practicing with iRealB so it's not a real player. Maybe I sould simplify the chord on it so I have room to manuever and try it out. Like put C- triad in there instead.
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#1781697 - 11/02/11 11:38 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
chrisbell Offline
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Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Simple is good. Try a Cm add2
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#1781709 - 11/02/11 12:01 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Originally Posted By: chrisbell

CmMaj7: G major triad
Gm7: Bb major triad
C7: A major triad
FMaj7: C major triad


Using triads is very good too. Again looking for a common connection using triads with the minor Maj 7 but also the aforementioned modes too.
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#1781715 - 11/02/11 12:14 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
Dave Ferris Offline
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Two more scales/modes that popped into my mind to use over the C minor would be the Eb melodic minor and G harmonic minor. There are others too but those two work well....
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#1781716 - 11/02/11 12:15 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Talking triads, what I was focusing on was the augmented triad on the C-Maj7. And then it starts sounding old. Nice to have my eyes opened a little. smile
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#1781718 - 11/02/11 12:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Dave, in your recording, what subs did you think you used or might have used? After listening to it a few times, it may not have been as unusual as I first thought. I think some where chromatic subs to ii-V-I's.
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#1781719 - 11/02/11 12:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


I guess it depends on what the bass player is playing. Unfortunately, I'm practicing with iRealB so it's not a real player. Maybe I sould simplify the chord on it so I have room to manuever and try it out. Like put C- triad in there instead.



The bass player is supposed to follow you if you are the soloist. If you are suggesting a certain tonality the bass player should pick up on it and play accordingly. If you have an unresponsive bass player then you best just to ignore what they are playing and do whatever you like. The clashes that result can be good. Even with a real player there isn't really much time to adjust your voicing or lines to accommodate the bass notes they play.
To break free of the usual tonalities you use try just playing lines with no chord - play anything however wild and get used to enjoying the weird sounds.
Or you could pick a particular voicing/tonal idea and use it every chorus until it is ingrained. This way you can build up a base of fresh ideas for further exploration.

All those scales suggested by Dave F are great.
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#1781720 - 11/02/11 12:20 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris


A lot has to do with how the music is flowing (or not frown ) , the bass player and drummer, my mood or what I'm hearing that day. I try not to force things. How you connect lines & harmonies are very important--some days it's happening for me, other days not.


I love those days when everything just seems to go right and feel good.
I wish I could find a mental approach to make every day like this.
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#1781726 - 11/02/11 12:27 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
Well the machine can't follow me smile

But in live playing, instead of having a few clashes before the bass player hears that I'm reharmonizing, stating the first chord as C-(9) would at least make it semi-clear.

Fortunately, I found that my regular bass player does follow me and I follow him rhythmically too. Hard to practice though when I'm just playing against a machine 98% of the time. You're fortunate that you make your own bass tracks smile
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#1781823 - 11/02/11 03:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Registered: 07/18/09
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Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: jazzwee


But in live playing, instead of having a few clashes before the bass player hears that I'm reharmonizing, stating the first chord as C-(9) would at least make it semi-clear.




It makes little difference because a bass player may well play any note on either of those chords. For instance a fairly normal bass line on Cm7 F7 would be ..
C, D, Eb, E, F etc
You might think that the E clashes with the Eb in the chord but it doesn't. The rules that you may use about which notes you should and shouldn't use in voicings don't really apply for bass lines.
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#1781852 - 11/02/11 04:49 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Loc: So. California
At first that didn't make sense, but I forgot to think in quarter notes and I now realize that the E would be on Beat 4 (a downbeat). So you're right, that would be a common bass line move. That's good to know.

So when is there conflict with a bass player? Are you saying that as long as the root of the chord agrees on beat 1 it doesn't matter?

I appreciate the bassist viewpoint you share here.
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#1781871 - 11/02/11 05:22 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Bassists don't have to play the root on the first beat. Often they may play the 3rd, 5th, sometimes the 4th or a tritone, or other notes, depending on context. There is no rule for avoiding conflict with other players, sometimes a chord inversion and bass note will clash a bit, but that can also be good. When everybody knows slightly different changes sometimes it can take a while to work out what changes the others are playing.
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#1781909 - 11/02/11 06:18 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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But they do have to meet up on beat 1 right (on something). Chord tones?

I can understand not being the root of beat 1 on 8 bars of a single chord like So What. But I find my position in the form from the bass player outlining the chord. Or at least that's what I think I hear.
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#1782031 - 11/02/11 09:05 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazzwee
But they do have to meet up on beat 1 right (on something). Chord tones?


Sometimes. I would guess I play a root note on the first beat maybe 50% on the time. For the first chord of the sequence (or change of section) it is probably more like 80-90%. I think bassists are less concerned with playing chord tones but more interested in getting between the important notes in a smooth way. The line is more important that whether the note conflicts with a chord symbol.

Originally Posted By: jazzwee

I can understand not being the root of beat 1 on 8 bars of a single chord like So What. But I find my position in the form from the bass player outlining the chord. Or at least that's what I think I hear.


If anyone is struggling with the form then it makes sense for the bass to play more simply and play more root notes. If a soloist is going pretty out and is very confident with the sequence then there is less point in being strict with the root notes. The same idea goes for the drummer - it is a bad idea to be playing interesting cross rhythms if everyone is having a hard job just playing together and holding the form.
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#1782103 - 11/02/11 11:58 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: Dave Ferris]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dave Ferris
Two more scales/modes that popped into my mind to use over the C minor would be the Eb melodic minor and G harmonic minor. There are others too but those two work well....


This is interesting. In my mind, when I think of what the melody suggests, that neither of these scales could work because of the Bb rather than a B in both scales. I remember having a heated discussion a while ago about melody, scales, chords and why I believed that to abandon the idea of melody while soloing misses the point of actually playing the changes IN that particular tune.

So given that both Dave and David think this is acceptable, what am I missing here? Am I really out to lunch on this? Is the B in the melody really unimportant to you two?
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#1782147 - 11/03/11 01:48 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Scep, to me it means is that you have to think of a substitution at the time you're playing (during the solo -- NOT the head). And we did discuss that earlier.

Just because the original chord says C-(maj)7 doesn't mean you have to stick to that. So you think of the sub and then outline the harmony for that. They already mentioned the subs: C-7, C-6, Cdim7, or A-7b5. But you can even go beyond that by doing some quick modulation.

I think it's even possible to change the chord every couple of beats since you have 2 bars. For example, you can start at C#-7 then go back down to C-7 on this. I was just playing around with that. Of course some of it's hard to do at a fast tempo.

I don't think it's even necessary to outline the chord changes with a LH voicing. Depends how much time you have.

I personally don't like to just think of the scale. I'd like to think of the harmony I'm implying so I make clearer choices (if there's time to think). So when Dave started talking about scales, I just translated that to the chords that it's meant to represent. Just my way of thinking.

Now I didn't do this at all in Solar. I'm just realizing this now and freeing my thinking a little bit. This little exercise will change my view of the chord changes everywhere. I was actually applying this thinking to many other tunes tonight, just to see if I can get it. So it's a simplistic and automatic reharm method.
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#1782214 - 11/03/11 06:51 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
beeboss Offline
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Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

So given that both Dave and David think this is acceptable, what am I missing here? Am I really out to lunch on this? Is the B in the melody really unimportant to you two?



If you think that a jazz improvisation is a theme and variations then I guess you can never get away from development of the melody. However the melody is far from just a bunch of pitches, also there are rhythmic and phrase shape elements, intervals etc, and it is possible to develop these while relaxing the pitch information just as it is also possible to retain the original pitch information and improvise with the rhythmic elements. As a basic example you could transpose the melody down a semitone and then you would be playing Bb's instead of B's, but there are many different ways to develop the melody and plenty of these allow for the changing of the pitches of the original melody notes.
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#1782247 - 11/03/11 08:36 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: scepticalforumguy]
chrisbell Offline
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Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
So given that both Dave and David think this is acceptable, what am I missing here? Am I really out to lunch on this? Is the B in the melody really unimportant to you two?
To me, the B is really important timbre wise. That it is a ascending melodic minor. I might however use a Bb as a passing tone, but I can not in my life hear a CmMaj7 as a Cm7, or even play a harmonic/natural minor scale on top. If I however start side-slipping I'll change depending how I hear the situation. But to me, the CmMaj7 going to FMaj7 (how to go to the Fmaj7 is another matter) is a brilliant chord change that really appeals sonically to me. smile
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#1782306 - 11/03/11 10:43 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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When I'm playing Footprints and it sits on C-7 for several bars, substitution of the chords creates inner voice movement. For example C-(Maj)7 -> C-7 -> C-6 -> Cdim7. I think that this is a very common approach. Or side-slipping as in C#-7 -> C-7 -> B-7 -> C-7 (this one you actually hear Herbie do).

It's a little more out to do it on Solar, when I tried it. I'm not that good at thinking this out on the fly. Some chord sequences fly too fast sometimes. I'm trying to make this more automatic.
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#1782466 - 11/03/11 04:00 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: beeboss]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Posts: 1475
Loc: Lower Mainland, BC
Originally Posted By: beeboss
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy

So given that both Dave and David think this is acceptable, what am I missing here? Am I really out to lunch on this? Is the B in the melody really unimportant to you two?



If you think that a jazz improvisation is a theme and variations then I guess you can never get away from development of the melody. However the melody is far from just a bunch of pitches, also there are rhythmic and phrase shape elements, intervals etc, and it is possible to develop these while relaxing the pitch information just as it is also possible to retain the original pitch information and improvise with the rhythmic elements.

Yes, melody is not just pitched based, but pitch and rhythm together. I also do understand that one may extract one of those elements and work it in extended ways. But sometimes, to me anyway, the uniqueness of a certain melody coupled with the chords needs to be maintained (and somehow referenced) in order for the solo/blowing to indicate an acknowledgement of all necessary elements of the tune.
So, I completely understand what you say below:
Originally Posted By: beeboss

As a basic example you could transpose the melody down a semitone and then you would be playing Bb's instead of B's, but there are many different ways to develop the melody and plenty of these allow for the changing of the pitches of the original melody notes.

But this is different than changing the relationship of the scales/melody notes/chords from having a maj 6, maj 7 in a scale to one that has maj 6 and min 7.

So what defines a particular tune? For me, Solar is defined by the odd juxtaposition of having an opening minor chord with a major melody on top. If I abandoned this definition, why couldn't I play a Cmaj chord for the first two bars? I think most people would suggest this is not an acceptable sub. I guess I feel the same for maj 7 that is clearly outlined in the melody.

For me, it seems a semitone can make all the difference between hip and simply wrong.
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#1782468 - 11/03/11 04:04 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
scepticalforumguy Offline
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Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: scepticalforumguy
So given that both Dave and David think this is acceptable, what am I missing here? Am I really out to lunch on this? Is the B in the melody really unimportant to you two?
To me, the B is really important timbre wise. That it is a ascending melodic minor. I might however use a Bb as a passing tone, but I can not in my life hear a CmMaj7 as a Cm7, or even play a harmonic/natural minor scale on top. If I however start side-slipping I'll change depending how I hear the situation. But to me, the CmMaj7 going to FMaj7 (how to go to the Fmaj7 is another matter) is a brilliant chord change that really appeals sonically to me. smile


I agree for the most part. The only thing that I'm working towards is whether or not the chord change is brilliant or just annoying. I suspect both. Maybe when I can truly play over the progression musically I'll opt for only brilliant smile

Thanks btw, for the suggestions of triads. I'd forgotten to do that, and it helps me get around some of the awkwardness of the Minor Maj shift.
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#1782481 - 11/03/11 04:24 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Intermediate/Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
JimF Offline
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BeeBoss, just wanteed to add my thumb to your Skylark performance. Just beautiful. I love the way you are able to control the soft sounds of the left hand harmonies. Thanks for sharing.

Jim
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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Piano Cover of Luke Bryan "Drink a Beer"
by Zach Evans
Today at 05:36 PM
Boris Slutsky to perform at PianoCraft on May 3
by Keith D Kerman
Today at 05:06 PM
Boris Slutsky to perform at PianoCraft May 3
by Keith D Kerman
Today at 05:05 PM
Hi Mr S-H and all
by Seaside_Lee
Today at 04:13 PM
A Steinway for under 1,500...
by Juln
Today at 04:09 PM
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