You might ask why I would want to test a V-grand when I have a Kawai RX-3 sitting in my music room, but that's a long and involved story. Maybe, having started with Yamaha's CLP-280, I really don't want to go back to a digital, but I'd at least like to find out what the V-grand had to offer. So why is it that the Roland piano dealers in the Boston area have no V-grands in their showrooms?

The V-Piano Grand is still fairly new (it's only been a few months since it was unveiled with classical concerts around the world), and I don't think there're many of them around. There's only one in London, for example (in fact that might be the only one in the UK...).

Why not try the V-Piano, using your own tried-and-tested headphones? It has the same sound engine as the V-Grand, though of course you don't get the extra resonances from the V-P Grand's speakers housed in the cabinet. But you won't get the full benefit of that anyway unless you can try it out in a quiet hall - preferably a real concert hall.

bennevis:

I have been following your posts on the V-piano for quite some time and I was hoping to try some of your "pianos" on a V-grand. In fact I have a Kawai MP8ii, which with Ivory, enables me to play an "expressionist German D" piano which I like very much. As you well know, listening on headphones is not as much fun as having the sound fill the room, which is one of the two things I like about the RX-3, the other being the keyboard. So it's the speaker system in the V-grand that appeals to me as well as the possibility of designing a piano that suits my tastes in my music room at a loudness level that is comfortable to my ears.

One dealer in my area who was trying to get a V-grand for display, suggested that the $18,000. U.S. MSRP might have something to do with the limited supply as well. I think your explanation is a more thoughtful one.

Thanks for your comments.

So far, in the demos on the 'net, the V-Grand sounds better to me than the V-Piano. I'm not sure whether it's some improvement in the actual sound generator, or whether it's other factors. (including my own imagination!)

Greg.

But, the v-piano doesn't have an audio system (amp, eq, speakers, etc). So what you hear on YT depends on, amongst many things, how those players are getting sounds out of the V.

Agreed. (that's why I included "other factors").

Greg.

Why not contact Roland directly or ask larger dealers if they sold a V-Grand and if you could be put in touch with the individual or organization that bought it.

I played the V-Grand earlier today.

Given the choice, I'd go for an AvantGrand every day of the week.

Cheers,
James
x

It is the built-in audio system in the V-grand that attracts me. Of course I could get such an option with the AvantGrand but then I would be "stuck" with the pianos that Yamaha had designated, and then I'd be back to where I am with the RX-3 with pianos that I might not like in my acoustic space. The V-grand has the added appeal of being able to tune the piano to my tastes, hopefully. I'm waiting for the day when we are offered a piano with a mini-grand enclosure, a good keyboard, good audio and a computer in which we can put whatever software piano we want.

Why?

Because it's so much better.

I went from playing an AvantGrand N1 to a V-Grand in the space of 5-10 minutes and the PHAIII action felt like putting your hand in bucket of sand.

Honestly, there's absolutely no comparison, simply because Yamaha makes acoustic pianos and Roland doesn't.

James
x

What pieces did you play on the two instruments? Did you find plenty of color in Avantgrand? Did you like the sound of the instrument? Do you believe the Avantgrand replicates a Yamaha acoustic accurately?

Frankly, my answers to the above presently would be (i) classical; (ii) no; (iii) no; (iv) no. But I think I may be in the minority on this point.

Jazz/Funk, yes, yes, yes.

That's fair. I do like playing jazz on it. I just played the third movement to the Mozart CM sonata K330 on the N2, though, and I am pretty sure I prefer the Roland RD-700NX for that. Reason: within a particular dynamic range (e.g., pp to mp), you can find a greater variety of color. The actions of the two instruments are, of course, very different, and I like shifting from one to the other (and to acoustics) to keep my chops up (such as they are).

If I had the money (and the space), I'd definitely treat myself to an N1 - a beautiful instrument that was a joy to play. The representative I spoke to mentioned that unlike the N2/N3, this model uses a new sample set of the Yamaha's flagship CFX concert grand - something I'm sure bennevis will appreciate.

Cheers,
James
x

Awesome. That'll stir the pot. ;-)

It's entirely possible he was either bull$hitting you or didn't know WTF he was talking about or else was consumed by wishful thinking. AFAIK it uses the same CFIIIs set they have had for a while. I don't believe the CFX sampling was even close to being finished when the N1 was released. In fact it's still not a shipping patch for any Yamaha product at least not quite yet. If they had stuck a early version of it in secretly they would have trumpeted it to the hordes so loudly you could hear the Yamaha marketing machine on the moon.



Ain't that the simple pure truth ? It really is that simple. you want a good action go to a piano maker ....

I guess this makes sense since the CFX is so new (right?). I haven't been following it. Is it considered a very large step up from its predecessor? I wonder if the sample used in the N1 is also longer/deeper/better technically. That is, since it came out later, did they use newer electronics and a sample that will come closer to pleasing dewster?

Personally I think its unfortunate--though I can see no alternative--that Kawai and Yamaha feel constrained to sample from their own pianos for their main sounds. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have an EX or CFX (or even play one) but they aren't the very *highest* end pianos available--at the very least they don't offer a lot of variety. Still, to make their main voice that of a different brand would be really weird from a marketing point of view.

Roland is not constrained in this way (one reason it gets good reviews for sound) but then, it doesn't have the resources an experience manufacturing acoustics that Yamaha and Kawai have.

I guess one reason there is no perfect digital piano is that there is no perfect digital piano manufacturer. In the mean time...sofware pianos, despite their quirks.

BTW I could see the new sample thing being true--even though it's not marketed generally--simply because to announce it would dilute the value of the N2/N3, which are costlier. They'd have to update the samples on all three if they wanted to really market that fact.

Or they could just use the same sample in the N1. That sounds very likely and easy. The salesman probably didn't realize he was going to be quoted and felt free to take a few "liberties."

Since you can slice and dice the samples you can either prove or disprove that statement.

I am under the impression that all three AvantGrands use the same sample set.

The AvantGrand has a full grand piano action, whereas the V-Grand just has a version of the PHAIII. I wonder whether Roland tried to source, or make, a better action for the V-Grand? I suspect that if they really wanted to make a digital piano with a grand action (or a closer approximation than PHAIII), they could. ;^)

Greg.

Yeah, actually. If they wanted they could buy Renner action (or any company's) and put an optical sensor under it. They have a long history in electronic instruments, though, and to me seem to want to create generally good actions, not specifically actions that reproduce those of acoustics. And I think for the most part that's what their customers value.

I was mentioning to someone a bit back that this trend toward lighter, possibly non-graded actions among high end Roland and Yamaha pianos is them trying to make the most expressive, easily played instrument for human fingers without the constraint that the force placed on the keys be sufficient to push a hammer fast enough to make the corresponding sound. It may well be that acoustics are more heavy and more graded than is optimal.

Personally I prefer pianos that imitate acoustic actions because I don't want to have to adjust when I play wooden pianos.

Has anyone done the experiment of taking the AvantGrand MIDI OUT into a software piano and putting its AUDIO OUT into the AG AUX IN?

Or he might have been telling the truth.

Don't shoot the messenger guys, I'm just passing on the info he imparted to me.

The chap seemed reasonably knowledgeable on sampling and the use of sample sets. My initial question was actually about one of the 'Silent' uprights, as I queried the size of the main piano sample used in digital mode (i.e. when the headphones are plugged in). He replied that while he couldn't tell me the exact size, the Silent pianos typically use the same tone-generator as the current generation Clavinova, which for this particular Silent upright would have been the equivalent of a CLP-300 series.

Then I asked how this sample set compares with the AvantGrand instruments. He noted that the N3/N2 utilise a CFSIII for their main sample, while the N1 utilises a new CFX sample set. I queried if N3/N2 owners would be able to upgrade to this sample (via a software update) and he shook his head, explaining that this functionality was not possible on the AvantGrand models. He added that this approach was a little awkward for him, as it meant that the lower price N1 utilises a newer sample set than the more expensive N3/N2, but that this was simplythe nature of product release cycles.

Sure, it's possible that this guy saw me coming, and had a well-worked story pre-planned in the event of just such a line of questions. However, in my (reasonably lengthy) experience, Japanese people don't tend to bullshit.

Cheers,
James
x

I've asked around and lets just say his information comes as news to quite a few people at Yamaha including people who really should know this stuff. Yamaha's own technical material states quite clearly that the N1 has a CFIIIs based sample in it. So clearly I'm skeptical to say the least of this guys claims.

This claim regarding the N1 would be easy enough for Dewster to prove or disprove. There are forum members who own the N1, N2 and N3.

I wonder whether the salesman was thinking of the CLP-465GP, which really does have CFX samples. (or at least, samples from a prototype of same - that's what the wording suggests)

My local supplier has a "buy it now" button for this product, but I take it from Dr Popper that it's not quite here yet. (haven't called them yet)

Greg.

I'll just add that when I played the CFX last week, I also took the opportunity to play the N1 for the first time, and compared it directly with the N3 also on display there, and could hear no difference (i.e. they both sounded like their sounds were taken from the CF-IIIS, not CFX). OK, so the DP area is far noisier than the acoustic area (where I played the CFX) upstairs, and I was using the Yamaha headphones provided, but both the N3 and N1 sounded identical through them (and the action was the same too - far heavier than any of the acoustic Yamaha grands, including the CFX.....why??).

Kawai James, I'm of course biased, being the proud owner of a V-Piano, but any 'authenticity' in the AvantGrands' key actions - and to me they don't even feel authentic, being heavier than any acoustic grand I've ever played - is entirely outweighed by the relative lack of tonal nuances possible (especially at the extremes of dynamics), the artifacts of sampling (poor sustain, looping - which becomes more and more evident if you increase its decay time etc) and the fact that they basically sound similar to any other far cheaper Yamaha DP when you use headphones.

Like kippesc, I play classical, though when the mood takes me I also vamp jazz and pop, and the V-Piano gives me all the tone color that I can achieve within my technical limits that I can't get on the AGs. Through headphones, the differences between the almost uncanny life-like response of the V-Piano to your minute changes in touch, attack, dynamics and voicing (in the classical, not jazz sense, i.e. individual weighting of notes within chords etc) and the typical DP response of the AGs is very obvious: only the N3's excellent speaker system manages to disguise some of the limitations of sampling. But comparing the N3 to the V-P Grand is, IMO, no contest - the latter can (after a little tweaking) play and sound like a real concert grand, which the N3 just can't, whatever the merits or otherwise of its key action. Piano playing is a lot more than key action: you're not playing a silent keyboard, and with the V-Piano you quickly forget that its key action has no hammers, so amazing is its response to your touch, just like a good acoustic grand. I've said it before - switching from the V-P/Grand to a real grand needs no special adjustment in how you play. Actually, remembering the last time I played two acoustic grands from different manufacturers one after the other, it took me longer to adjust to the action of a Grotrian-Steinweg after playing a Shigeru Kawai than it took to adjust to the S. Kawai from my V-Piano. If you're wondering, currently I'm practising Liszt's Weihnachtsbaum (in preparation for Christmas), the Yellow River Concerto (just because the piano part is so well written and it's a lot of fun to play....) and the piano part of Franck's Violin Sonata (to accompany a violinist friend).

Bennevis, did you adjust the AG touch to the light setting (#1) when you made this comparison, or were you using the default touch setting?

Wow!

I'd love to hear some of your nuanced playing ... on any piano or keyboard.

Changing the 'touch' settings on DPs don't change their keyweight - for the AG, you'll need a technician. I was actually referring to the actual keyweight rather than 'perceived' weight based on how quickly the sound gets louder when you hit harder, which is what the touch setting changes. I played the AGs on all the different touch settings, but they made no difference - from my own V-Piano, I'm used to the difference in 'perceived' weight from changing its touch setting anyway (called 'sound lift' on the V-P/G).

Come into my parlour, and.....er, hear my highly nuanced playing - even jazz if you prefer.

In this day and age of sampled and modeled pianos we have the possibility of a virtual parlor.

Getting back to the original post ... So why is it that the Roland piano dealers in the Boston area have no V-grands in their showrooms?

My gut feeling, the V-Piano did not sell as expected and dealers, especially with money being tight, are a little gun shy about buying an expensive digital grand to display on their floor. What is the expected street price of the V-Grand?

I spoke with a piano dealer in Haarlem, a reasonably large Dutch city, and played his V-Piano; he expressed his disappointment with the sales of the V-Piano. I cannot imagine he will be ordering the V-Grand any time soon. (I assumed I played the V-Piano he originally ordered.)

I've said this several times, I wish there was more competition for Yamaha. At the moment only Yamaha markets a digital piano with a real piano action. (Bösendorfer had plans to market one, one with the action from their nine footer, but they had financial problems and Yamaha took them over.) I would love for Kawai to market a digital piano with a real grand piano action. They have a track record by once offering an upright hybrid but that was ages ago.

Sounds about right, Dave. The V may have sound appeal. But it has several drawbacks:
- Extreme price.
- Too many adjustments.
- Ugly, even for a keyboard.
Even with its good points, it's hard to sell something that has so much going against it.

Odd that the digital forum has an ad for the V-Grand and, now, a thread about where the V-Grand might be seen, but no dealer has taken the opportunity to post that they have one in their showroom. Why advertise something that can't be seen or readily acquired?

it does highlight the somewhat strange dilemma the higher end digital piano mfers face selling into a relatively small market. If you want to buy a $200,000 sports car and you can't test drive it in your city, you probably will get on a plane and fly to wherever a dealer is who has one. anyone who would consider buying something that expensive will have the means to pursue it no matter what. But would you fly to another place to buy a $15,000 digital piano? And would you ever buy it without demo'ing it? A dealer who sells high end acoustic grands- i would imagine they don't lose value sitting on the showroom floor until they sell- but a high end digital piano has that ultra-fast obsolescence component of technology. it seems very risky for a dealer to have to sit on something that can lose its technological competitiveness somewhat quickly.

My experience has been its getting harder and harder to find even the mid-priced boards at retail in the US. maybe not in music centers like NY, LA, Nashville etc., but in Atlanta- a metropolitan area of 5MM +, i can't find a NP88, nor a MP10, nor a CP1 anywhere to demo. Guitar Center seems to focus on the mass market only, and we don't have many music retail indies left here.

But would you fly to another place to buy a $15,000 digital piano? And would you ever buy it without demo'ing it?

Well, my wife and I traveled to Vienna to test drive Bösendorfer's version of the hybrid piano. The cost of fuel is two and half times what those in the US pay. We didn't fly but the cost of fuel was still significant. (1200 km or 750 mi)

Thats quite a trip, but I wouldn't need much of an excuse to visit Vienna! my wife and i had the opportunity to go from Amsterdam to Vienna via river barge cruise- i thought it was only for 70 year olds, but we had the best time of our lives!

I should have made the analogy strictly for the mid-range keyboards. I agree you'd consider traveling for a ultra-high end DP audition. I think the keyboards i mention could be played in Nashville- about 250 miles from here. So i guess if i get serious about one i will be on a road trip too!

Re: the CLP-465GP,it is not quite here yet in Oz (next month, they say), just as Dr Popper said.However, the CLP-430 is available here now, and they said it has the same specs. (And indeed, the specs mention the CFX-ish samples)

EDIT: They have a 430 on demo, but I didn't ask for a lead time.

Greg.

Neither the CLP-465GP or the CLP-430 or any other current Yamaha model have a sample set based on a CFX and Yamaha is careful NOT to say they do in their blurb. They just say "the piano that led to the CFX" ...which is the CFIIIs(mb) which is a CFIIIs with a modified bridge that was also used for the CLP-300 series.
There HAS been a real CFX sample set recorded and processed and I expect it to be released both as shipping models AND as updates for some current models in the near future.
You can't confuse a CFX and and CFIIIs ... they are completely different animals. The different between my CF6 and my C7 is so vast they might as well be different manufacturers.

Thanks. They have not been careful enough in the product descriptions IMHO.

Greg.

Re: the N3's action, I recalled that I had heard a negative comment about it in that Keyboard Mag All Star Round Table review ( http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid53923107001 ), and I found it again - it's very early in the 14th clip. Randy Waldman comments that it's a "little stiff", but they agree that it is not yet broken in.

Greg.

That's the key to it. They were comparing it to a beaten-up C7 if I recall. All this stuff about the AG's action being too heavy, or heavier than other Yamaha acoustic actions is nonsense.

He (Randy Waldman) makes further comments actually - he seems sure the action is a bit unresponsive, however, as I say, he also seems to accept that it's probably because it's very new and not broken in. I'm pretty sure all the other participants only praised the action though.

But yeah, they were comparing it with the old C7. Not ideal. ;^)

Greg.

The N3 I played was the display model which has resided in that store for over 18 months, and the keys and cabinet bear some scratch/scuff marks. Its action was exactly the same as that of the brand new N1.

That's rather counter-intuitive, isn't it?

As is, by the way, the likelihood that someone (at least someone who doesn't own an AG) would visit a shop and play all the AGs on all the available touch settings. There is no "touch" setting on the control panel, and for better or worse, one has to burrow into the AG manual to learn how to change the touch setting. The option isn't well known either to AG owners or even some Yamaha dealers.

There is no "touch" setting on the control panel, and for better or worse, one has to burrow into the AG manual to learn how to change the touch setting. The option isn't well known either to AG owners or even some Yamaha dealers.

Some of us read the manual. I even photocopied and laminated the page with all the settings.

The manual isn't so large that it requires burrowing, a studious glance would be more appropriate.

And yet other AG owners on this list were unaware of this option until it was recently noted in another thread.

In any case, it's not something apparent to a casual shopper from a discrete control panel setting.

The user interfaces on DPs are almost universally bad. People learn to live with them, but they could be a lot better.

The AG user interface "is" terrible to use. The engineer who designed it must have been hung over that day. Just press Ctrl-Alt-Delete-A8# to change to the bright piano? What?

The AG action should be able to be regulated just like any other action - right?

Can the AG be regulated to play better by a "qualified piano tech" or does an "AG Tech" have to work on the action?

That's the problem with SO many gadgets today. They're designed by engineers and little thought is given to useability.

I actually tried a V-piano at Guitar Center in Boston this past summer. GC wasn't doing anything positive to sell it. It was hooked up to tiny studio monitors in the middle of the other keyboards and after about 2 minutes I was thinking how ordinary it sounded. It should of been in a private room, maybe where they have the studio equipment.

Of course it was better than the Kronos which was a top keyboard of three and one of the studio monitors was broken and there was no sustain pedal.

I fear that bringing a tech in to work on the action of my AG is going to involve a lot of "Why in the world did you buy one of these things?"

pv88, I meant that after playing the AvantGrand N1, the Roland PHAIII action by comparison felt soft, mushy, and generally inferior.

However, the same would most likely have been true of other plastic key actions based on similar mechanisms. I expect that if I had played a Kawai CL36 after the AvantGrand it would have also feel rather inferior.



No, I find the PHAII/PHAIII action to be very playable, and have stated so on many occasions. It's just that the AvantGrand action is so much better.

This is why I question the purpose of the V-Piano Grand. Who is it actually aimed at? In my opinion, the original V-Piano was already far bigger than it needed to be, so why on earth put the same thing inside a not-terribly-attractive grand piano cabinet?

But pv88, please don't rely solely on my subjective opinion. If you're seeking the most realistic piano playing experience, I encourage you to visit a couple of stores to play-test both the AvantGrand (N1) and V-Piano, then decide which instrument you prefer for yourself.

Kind regards,
James
x

Hmm...what happened to pv88's previous post?

Here's a tidbit of info that suggests that it may indeed be regulated by a plain old piano tech: (extract from http://www.digitalgrandpianos.co.uk/faqs )



Greg.

I wonder how the A.G handles the feel of the dampers! Does the action get lighter when the sustain pedal is down, or not? Is there a bit of play as you press the key, before the damper starts to be lifted? (apparently there is, on a real piano, but I've never tested to see whether I could detect it)

Greg.

Disappeared. I didn't think you could just zap a post off the thread without trace.

Yes, if you edit your post, you will then see a button to delete the post. I notice that some of us leave the stub there, with the word "deleted" - that's probably a better way of doing it.

Greg.
p.s Hey, I think it was that funny thread that pv88 started, and then "deleted" where I saw the "deleted" stub idea. ;^)

The AG has no dampers, and therefore the keyweight doesn't lighten up slightly when you press the sustain pedal down, unlike in real grands. And similarly, the keyboard doesn't shift to one side when you press the una corda down (because there're no 'corda'....).

A purchaser of an acoustic piano doesn't buy a piano in the expectation that its action will get easier or 'looser' when it's been 'broken into'. He buys the piano - the exact one that he auditioned, not just any one of the same brand and model, because all acoustics are different - whose action and sound he likes, and will expect it to behave the same in a year's time, or 10 years' time, with regular servicing. AGs' key actions therefore should behave similarly and no purchaser should expect any 'stiffness' when new (otherwise there's something wrong with Yamaha's quality control), nor any change with time.

I played the N3 and N2 in that store on several occasions, and never knew you could increase the sustain until David Horne pointed it out to me recently - similarly with the other variables, when I had to get the assistant to show me.

But to be fair, the V-Piano (and even more so, the V-P Grand, whose whole console can be hidden by the lid, to avoid distracting the pianist) has most of its secrets hidden, and most potential purchasers never find out how many parameters can be customized - unless they spend a day with it in a quiet room with the manual beside them. I suspect that if a punter plays on it and doesn't hear anything 'special' immediately, he'd be put off by the price tag and the paucity of knobs and levers.

This link: http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm seems to me to explain why, in fact, new pianos can feel stiffer. ;^)

Greg.

Maybe you should spend a day with an instrument in a quiet room and the manual beside you?





James
x

I am laughing!!!!

It occurs to me, following bennevis' fascinating revelation that acoustic piano actions don't change over time and they remain immune from wear and "loosening-up", that we should ask the piano makers in general, and Yamaha in particular, to turn their engineering skill to developing the following:

Any machine, mechanism or thing where physical contact and/or movement commonly takes place (including the soles of my shoes).

I agree with bennevis here. The out of the box default settings on the V-piano do need to be changed to really appreciate what this instrument can do.



I agree with this as well. I've owned my CLP990 for 10 years and I did notice it getting softer slightly over time. It might have been a combination of my fingers getting stronger as well. My acoustic Yamaha upright has gotten softer over the last 30 years however it is still going strong with only a few keys slightly sticking but still playable.



When I auditioned the V-piano for the first time, it was in a Sam Ashe where the V-piano was connected to two of the worst speakers I had ever listened to and next to all the other digital synths as well. I brought my own headphones in and waited for a not so busy time to test it out. At the time I really liked the default sounds, however now that I have tweaked them, they are even better. However the defaults were enough for me to want to buy it initially since I wanted a different sounding piano than my Yamaha's at home.

Believe it or not, the N3 is situated in the foyer on the ground floor of the huge store, presumably to pull in the punters as it's the most impressive DP there. No chance of any quiet, unless you come at an inconvenient time - which I did last year when I was spending a lot of time traipsing around the several DP stores looking for my dream DP (which as you know, I found, and it's still a dream to play ). The V-Piano that I auditioned was in an even worse place - in the middle of a small room loaded and piled high with DPs of all kinds (obviously, Roland's dealers cannot afford the spacious premises of Yamaha's....).

I based my final purchase solely on how the DP responded to my playing, listening through my old Bose QC2 noise-cancelling headphones, not on any other features. As you know, all I ever wanted was an acoustic grand piano substitute.......

Oops - just reading that link about piano actions, I see that the "bit of play" for the dampers is actually 50% of the travel! The dampers only start to be lifted when the keys are half way down.

Also, the state of brand new Japanese pianos is apparently very good:


Greg.

Mmm, so many things to twiddle and tweak - and yet, it always sounds like a V-Piano. I'm waiting for a flood of mp3s and demos where someone has got it to sound like a patently different piano. Come on chaps...

I was in the shop where I bought mine yesterday having some cables made up. The Roland guy started to chat to me and I asked him how many V-Pianos he'd sold since mine. One, he replied. I think that makes two in total, and I returned mine of course. This isn't a little piano shop in a side road, this is what they call "Roland Planet" - the biggest selection of Rolands in our region.

Having no doubt observed the amusement on my face (I did try to suppress it), he then went on to say words to the effect of "Roland never expected to sell them as such, it is just a showcase for their technology".

I don't know how you can say every piano sounds the same? Did you try bennevis's tweaks. I trained monkey would be able to hear a different piano sound coming from the changes, no offense Oh and MP3's I have heard of the V-piano so far do not represent what I hear at home either. So far nobody has been able to record it perfectly. I am attempting to do so and perhaps at that time I will post my recordings.

The Yamaha AvantGrand N3 does sound better out of the box than the V-grand (yes I have played both at default settings). However after tweaking, it is no contest if you can hear the difference between samples and modeled sounds which I can.



it is a shame Roland has priced it so high and that the world economy is in the shape its in. Roland should have marketed the V-piano better and by now have lowered the selling price overall. Instead the advertised price has been raised artificially since it made its debut which also drives people away. I think Roland really needs to do another Evolution like upgrade and making sure that they get some good reviews out there by musicians once more focusing on the new piano's. Not just talking about the technology but how great and organic the sound really is.

My revelations are always fascinating, as you well know, because they're based on long experience, and immensely deep knowledge.... (unlike with some people...).

An acoustic piano - as I've already said in my previous post - requires regular servicing. Anyone who buys a new acoustic - or AG - which feels stiff to him, but thinks it will 'loosen up' with playing (just like brand new hiking boots ) is simply nuts: either he requests a tech to 'loosen' it to his satisfaction before contemplating purchase, or look for something else.

A stiff key mechanism (or sticky keys) is no use to a pianist - unlike heavy keyweight, which is something different entirely, if the pianist can adapt to it. The key needs to go down and return quickly without undue friction, otherwise you can't play rapid repeated notes or ornaments. Whether heavy or light, the key action should never feel stiff. Some people are confusing the two - the AGs aren't stiff, they're just heavy.

Bennevis,
Randy Waldman said the N3 he was trying felt a "little stiff" - he didn't say "heavy". (it may also be heavy as well, of course).
He said that it may have been because the action was new, the Yamaha rep agreed, and I have now found a web page that explains why this might just be the case. After seeing him play, and reading his biography, I have every reason to believe that he probably knows what he's talking about. ;^)

Greg.

I prefer a lighter keywieght than the one the AG's represent for longer playing which is why I like the V-piano's keybed better for daily use. If I want a heavier action, I just need to go to my Yamaha CLP990. Heavier action does make your fingers stronger though, but can be painful if your playing technique is even slightly off as it can make it easier for carpel tunnel syndrome to kick in if not careful. I am someone who has fully recovered from carpel tunnel issues so for me, it was a nice change when I played the V-piano since all those years getting used to a heavy action, has made it easier for me to play more accurately the V-piano's lighter action.

So it simply needs to be banged on for about a month to loosen it up then? I believe something must have been wrong with that particular AG if it was stiff. Unless we can get a confirmation that all AG's are stiff at first and loosen up after a given amount of playing. (separate from heavy which they all are) I tend to agree with Bennevis here since AG's piano action is based off of a real acoustic, the dynamics should not change after it is built. Perhaps there is something that has to wear a bit like felt that can make something change? Is that was Randy means? If there is a tightness or stiffness, then something must be causing it, and that thing has to be loosened somehow by having it wear. What is stopping whatever is wearing to continue to wear over time? How loose can the AG get then if this is the case?

I think I have to agree with bennevis here on this one and say it should not feel stiff unless something is wrong.

Kona V-Piano,
You may have missed this link: http://www.pianofinders.com/educational/touchweight.htm that I posted a few replies back. Again - it explains that new pianos can be stiff, and it explains why. I.e - it can be normal for a new piano to be stiff.

Greg.

The article is well written and is valid to some degree when it comes to perception. I do not disagree with most of its points though as they are valid to some degree when it comes to perception. When you go out to test any acoustic grand piano, the sound and feel should not change by the time you take it home and play it for a few months. If it does, then something is wrong with the construction. Any changes in how it feels is most probably subliminal and a combination of your fingers getting stronger mixed with your confidence increasing when playing.

You reject the idea that there are components that have tighter clearances when new compared to when they are played in? I find that rather surprising. Older pianos always have a looser feel than newer ones. They rarely leave the factory being too tight, but they are certainly not as loose as they will become with a bit of playing time.

I do not reject the idea completely, however what I am saying is that any piano shouldn't be built tight that it would be considered stiff (in relation to heavy which are two different things) when compared to the same model piano. In my opinion this would boil down to someone making something too tight when building that needed to be loosened to begin with. In other words a construction issue rather than it being built that way with the knowledge that it needs to be broken in and loosened. if you tell a salesman about a flaw in any of the piano's action as far as stiffness goes, he/she may want to throw out that information that it will get softer as you play it in order to get the sale. But that change of hammer felt wear should take years and the change would be so gradual it may never be noticed. Again, I agree with the hammer felt making a difference, however it shouldn't drastically change that quickly. You either like it or you don't. But don't expect it to change noticeably after playing it as you may feel a change when it is simply you getting used to it.


The article states hardness and someone asking why is the piano I just bought so hard. First of all, if anyone buys a piano that is too hard, then they either bought into the notion that it can be changed by lots of playing for the better or they simply didn't play it at all before bringing it home. When I go out to buy a piano, I would never buy one that would feel stiff from factory quite honestly and I don't know anyone that knowingly would either.

I think humidity and time plays more of a factor on how an acoustic piano feels than anything else. Wood expands and contracts due to the humidity and that may cause a change in feel over time if there is something rubbing together that shouldn't be and so forth. Also, the felt on the hammers over time get old with use, and a loss of hammer felt will make the feel lighter as well if ever so slightly.

The AG does not use hammer felt, so there should be little to no change unless there is something wrong with it to begin with.

I would say it's key bushings that determine much of the tightness in an action, not really the hammers. I know this because I have rebushed half the keys in my Yamaha U3 and they seem a little stiff compared to the ones I haven't rebushed.

I think we have to keep in mind that there is a comparison going on here - a 35-year-old C7 and a brand new AG. I doubt the AG is actually "stiff" - I think it is essentially as you suggest a new piano should be: perfectly playable as it is. I just think that once you go from a well worn piano to a brand new one, it feels different. The action feels more cushioned, less loose. Those guys on that video series played some very impressive stuff. There was nothing there to suggest that the action wasn't doing what it was supposed to do.

People choose words that don't always tell the whole story. I wouldn't take a simple word like "stiff" as gospel. It's very subjective and it doesn't take into account what they were comparing the AG to. I think pretty much any new piano would feel a bit stiff compared to that old C7.

Exactly, I think the AG they were playing is just the way all new Yamaha's feel. They just got used to an old one.

i had to chuckle reading this post. i live in a town where the independent music dealers (for electronica) have all but disappeared and we are stuck with a couple GC's and a Sam Ash for our perusing keyboards. I too have experienced trying to audition a several thousand dollar product while having the PA system blasting in the background and no sustain pedal anywhere in sight. most of these places are so focused on guitars the keyboard room is like visiting a flea market.

Bwhahahahahah !!!!

A bit off-topic, but as we've been talking about the Yamaha CFX, here's the chance to hear this new concert grand for yourself and compare it to the sound from your Yamaha DP, which is based on the old CF-IIIS.

The French pianist Pierre-Laurent Aimard gave a concert last night at the Queen Elizabeth Hall, London, which was broadcast live by the BBC and is now available to hear anytime for the next 7 days via BBC iPlayer on www.bbc.co.uk/radio3, and click on Programmes, then Radio 3 Live in Concert. If classical music isn't your cup of tea (or coffee), just listen to the final piece (about 1 hour in) which is Liszt's Vallée d'Obermann from Années de pèlerinage (Suisse): in the space of 15 minutes, you get everything from pp to fff and bald single note recitative-like passages to thunderous octaves and chords - everything you need to assess the quality of the piano sound. To me, the CFX has a much more colorful sound than its predecessor, and at ff and above, there's a Steinway-like brilliance (rather than the stridency of the CF-IIIS).

Incidentally, Aimard is a 'Steinway Artist'. Has he defected because of the quality of the CFX?

It's a beautiful sounding piano - and quite unlike any Yamaha I've ever heard.

I agree - I think it's the first Yamaha concert grand that can be spoken of in the same breath as Bösendorfer, Fazioli, C.Bechstein and Steinway.

I've played a bit on a CFX and your right in that its certainly darker and woodier and has a more European feel to its tone then the CFIIIs did but its still quite bright and playable in a context that's relevant to modern music. So while It's more European its still a Japanese piano at heart and still retains the Yamaha midrange ping which is important if you like most of your music to be composed after your grandparents were born like I do.

Sounds like a perfect compromise between too dark and too bright. Me want...

I've just found out that Dawsons in Reading (UK) have a V-grand in store
http://www.dawsons.co.uk/blog/roland-v-piano-grand-in-store-at-reading

I am also interested in the V-grand and just called the local Roland dealer here in suburban Maryland (Jordan Kitts). He said they had 2 which they received in the last couple of months - both were sold immediately.

They are supposed to get another and they are going to call me when it comes in. I am looking forward to trying it out.

well, i guess as soon as someone samples it and comes out with another 80GB Eureka-moment software piano, i'll get sucked into buying that one too...

That CFX does sound good. It seems to have a very long sustain, too. (or does the recording have some dynamic range compression? Do streaming radio stations typically stream the raw audio, or do they stream the as-broadcast audio, in which case the probability of there being compression is increased, I think)

EDIT: I just stumbled on this link: http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/audio_processing.htm which says that Radio 3 does NOT use dynamic range compression, so my concern above is irrelevant. (it's down to whether or not the original recording has compression or not. I assume for this type of performance, if they do use compression, it would be subtle)

Greg.

You could be the first one in Melbourne ;-)

Finally, a constructive answer to my question. Presumably if the V-grand is selling in Maryland, their availability in Boston can't be too far behind. Thanks Bill.

I think you've missed the point, They have been available in Boston since day 1 It's just that the local Roland dealers do not want to stock it.

Are you going to send one to me?

That's more than my local store in Guildford has, but it looks like your Reading store is a big one. When I last visited Harrods in London and played on their display V-P Grand (which was the same one used in the concert at the RCM), they told me they'd already sold one, but they were still waiting to get it in.

Sure but give me some of those dollar thingys first will ya ....114000 of them will do nicely.

I just checked my bank balance and I'm about 111,000 short, so send it anyway and I'll owe ya...

Is that the CFX's price down under? That's cheap .
I might even prefer it to a Steinway D274.....

The list price is $295K ....but ...It also depends on where the piano is going ....who's buying it and what use it will get.
But not really list either as they are about $160k to 170k +/- for a serious buyer who shops around (say for their foyer etc) Remember that list prices on high end pianos mean nothing ... especially in this economy.




Yeah see what a good deal I was giving him !!!!

FWIW, another great CFX recording: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpt7ep-08Oc "Take the A Train - Tony DeSare and Tedd Firth" (closely mic'd, I guess - this is more my taste) I think I can still hear something a little bit special in the length of the sustain in the middle registers..............

Greg.

If anyone's interested, there are CD recordings from last year's Chopin Competition available, featuring the Yamaha CFX (and superb playing - all Chopin of course). Yulianna Avdeeva (1st prize) and Evgeni Bozhanov (4th) both played on CFX and selected performances from their various stages in the competition have been released on 2-CD sets (for the price of one) respectively. The 3rd prize winner, Daniil Trifonov (who went on to win the Tchaikovsky Competition in Moscow this year) played on Fazioli and his 2-CD set from the competition is also available.

The recordings are all superb, and live of course (with a few wrong notes as well as applause). As far as I know, these are the only commercially available CDs featuring the CFX.

really... how many bathrooms? what is the market for subprime piano loans?

That's not what the Roland dealer I talked to said, but assuming you are correct, why would they not have at least one V-grand for display?

Because unlike a acoustic grand a digital piano depreciates when placed as floor stock and as Roland aren't offering any particularly great incentives for dealers keeping a V-grand in stock as a floor/demo model dealers simply aren't ordering them. As every second a digital model sits on their floor it loses value. Roland launched the V-Grand to all Roland piano dealers in the US and Canada together, how individual dealers responded is a matter for the dealers themselves. I know that if I was a dealer I wouldn't be risking a V-grand sitting on the floor losing money. Yamaha's Avant Grands are different as Yamaha have a much bigger market share and are huge compared to Roland and are quite prepared to give floor models to dealers on consignment to keep their pianos available. Roland and Kawai can't afford to do this type of thing which is why their pianos are harder to find then the Yamaha's.

When I contacted the local Steinway dealer who also sells Roland DPs, and asked if she had a V-grand on the floor, her answer was "No, good-bye" . So your explanation makes perfect sense. Thanks.

Maybe I'll just have to face the myriad of problems trying to replace my acoustic with another acoustic. What a thought!

You can't replace a acoustic with a digital you can complement it, you can use a digital as well, you can play a digital only but its never going to replace a real grand piano for the player. The audience is a different story.

The best option for you is to buy a N3 Avant Grand and use a laptop with one of the Steinway samples if you don't like the Yamaha sound.
That IS pretty close to a real grand.

That's is exactly what I would like to do but to my knowledge the N3 does not allow for external access to the entire speaker set, only stereo. Also, I have not been able to find posts reporting the outcome of such an experiment.

My dream is to use something like Pianotech, which allows for multichannel "virtual sampling" to place virtual microphones at the spatial locations of the N3 speakers and run that through a nice mellow, old-fashioned Steinway model. Please convince me I can do that and I'm off to the Yamaha dealer.

BTW, how does Roland expect to sell any V-grands if they know the dealers won't stock them for all the reasons you have given?

I having trouble understanding why someone would buy an N3, the best available digital piano, and then hook it up to Pianoteq? Wouldn't the N3 sound better by itself?

Or, say, hook it up to some other, better piano library? Well, since that would mean abandoning the N3's native sounds, couldn't you do just as well with a MUCH less expensive piano? All you're getting from the N3 is a proper piano action. For the N3 price ($13,000?) you could get a real grand piano.

What if one doesn't like the sound of the Yamaha samples. The beauty of a software DP is that in principle one can choose whatever type of piano one wants. Personally I like a mellow piano, which to date I have found only in Ivory's Expressionist German D. I'd love to have that sound in the AG.


For me, it's the keyboard and the integrated speaker set that attracts me to the AG. The idea of having a DP keyboard and a pair of loudspeakers doesn't appeal to me. The problem, as I understand it, is that one can't exploit the full capabilities of the
AG with a software piano.

That's true, you can't. But it could be that in the near future the AG will come with the new Yamaha CFX sample set - which might be much closer to the Steinway sound you like. The few recordings I've heard of the CFX are really quite different to the old Yamaha sound - much more subtle and refined. It might be just the thing to make you happy. It's a pity we don't have a Yamaha version of Kawai James on this forum (Yamaha Fred or something..), it would be nice to know what's in the pipeline. However given that there are whispers of the N1 having the CFX samples, it's possible the next generation of N2s and N3s will get it too. I know I'd be more than happy with an AG with CFX.

I think piano 1 on the AG is pretty mellow personally. It surprises me how mellow it is. Piano 2 is much brighter.

If you want to watch Keyboard Magazine's videos where four well-known contemporary players compare it to a beaten up old C7 at Village Recorders you will hear just how much more mellow the AG is. Although it's well over a year since I watched the videos that is my memory of them anyway.

That would be a nice option to have. But wouldn't it bug you that you had all this digital horsepower in front of you that you couldn't tweak to your musical tastes, in your acoustic space? I guess I'm too much of an engineer.

Thanks for your comments though. Maybe I'll wait a little longer before I do anything rash.

Well They know they aren't going to sell many of course they would like to sell more but equally they know they can't financially compete with the 600 pound gorilla that is Yamaha. The V-piano has been a big sales failure as a stage piano for Roland for a variety of reasons and I'm guessing they stuck the V-piano into the grand cabinet in order to attempt to get a return on their considerable R&D investment. But they lack the sheer marketing power to leverage this product into what is a very limited market. Roland have a lot of things on their plate over the next 12 months and I doubt the V-Grand is a high priority for them except as a top of the range technology showcase type of product. If they were in a better financial position they would no doubt be able to try a different more direct approach but that would require them financing the floor stock for their dealers and I just can't see them being able to do that any time in the near to mid term future. Kawai is in a similar position to Roland with the added problem of them not actually controlling many of their distributors in many countries and having a very poor dealer network that seems to actively steer potential purchasers away from Kawai in order to sell other higher margin pianos. however Kawai have one thing Roland doesn't in that they actually make real pianos and that has allowed them to make the best DP action going around.
Why do you even want a digital grand piano anyway ? Why not buy a real Grand and a MP10 or such ...best of both worlds....

It doesn't...The N1 has the same CFIIIs based sample set as the N2 and N3 .....

When Yamaha release a product with the CFX sample set in it I guarantee you will know about it and it won't be through whispers.

I own a 6' 2" acoustic grand of well-known manufacture. It was my retirement gift to myself four years ago, replacing a $100 clunker I had bought forty years ago. You might have thought, as I did, that any piano would be better than what I had. My beautiful new piano was much too loud for my room. After spending over $2K for acoustic panels, draperies, carpets, a padded string blanket, and using ear plugs while playing with the lid closed, I can now tolerate the power of the beast. The second thing is the flaw I hear in a couple of notes in the 5th octave that are louder and have a different timbre than their neighbors, more harsh, more bright.

As it happens, I also own an MP8ii which I use to drive Ivory into headphones. There is one piano, the Expressionistic German D, that I enjoy very much. If I could have that in an low-powered acoustic grand, I'd be in heaven. But how to find such a piano. The problem with my digital is that I use headphones and that's not as much fun as hearing the sound everywhere in the room. I don't want to get into the loudspeaker thing.

So that leaves me with the AG, through which I cannot play Ivory's German D, and the Roland V-grand, that might let me design the piano I want, but isn't available.

What to do?

Try the AvantGrand N1/N2/N3.

Cheers,
James
x

I assume AG means AvantGrand. I don't see why you can't play Ivory through it, though. It has a line in, if I am not mistaken.

I'm also not sure why you don't want to get speakers. Having the speaker built into your piano is not that different from having a separate set of speakers. Mainly it's a lot more expensive and less flexible. I can accept that it's just your preference, but I think it doesn't make much sense.

I'm sorry but get into the speaker thing .... for the price of a V-grand you could get a surround processor, computer, MP10, RD700NX and a set of Genlec or Focal speakers that would DESTROY the V-Grand capabilities. And I mean DESTROY ....

OK, let's think about getting into the speaker thing. What do you mean by "a surround processor"? What are Genlec or Focal speakers. How would I design a system to exploit the multi-channel output capabilities of Ivory and, perhaps, Pianotech. I'm willing to give serious consideration to your suggestion but I need more detail as to why it is superior. Are you saying that from a optimum DP point of view, the AG and V-grand are just cabinetry? This could be fun.

I guess the only thing I see that isn't super easily done is four-location sampling instead of stereo. In principle this kind of thing is possible (especially for pianoteq), but it's not trivially done.

I'm not an expert in surroud processors, but I suppose it's a device that takes stereo sound and breaks it up to make it into surround sound. Not the same as true surround, but how good is your directional hearing anyway?

You'll have to learn from someone else what a surround processor is. It sounds like a device that splits stereo up into simulated surround sound.

No the AG has a real grand piano action but the V-piano is essentially just a normal v-piano in a cabinet with some speakers and a soundboard. Nothing you couldn't do better and cheaper with your own speaker set up.

go here ... http://www.genelec.com/products/dsp-products/

Check out the 8260 dsp systems

combined with a subwoofer and software calibration this system would easily outperform any speakers contained in any DP

Dr Popper, can you provide a link recommendation or an explanation of what you mean by a software calibration system? That sounds like something I could do with my current, cheap monitors. Those Genelecs cost a pretty penny.

It seems like in order to calibrate monitors you would need a microphone good enough to tell how well the different frequencies are coming through.

GLM is Genelec software .... it comes with their speakers. although other speaker manufacturers do it as well but its specific to the speaker brand and model.

http://www.genelec.com/products/dsp-products/glm-software/



You can do things well or do them cheap you can rarely do both

My thought: Given your situation as I understand it, you should find a Yamaha dealer with an Avant N3 (or maybe and N2), and plug Ivory Steinway into it. Consider exaggerating the stereo separation parameter to emphasize the treble on the right side. Toggle ("A/B") between the internal sound and Ivory, using Function-C7 (or C6 according to Yamaha -- whatever . . . the penultimate high C). After you run that test, I think you will conclude that obsessing over samples taken from various mic positions is unnecessary. I have noticed with the N2 that the right channel is treble side and the left channel is bass side and that, apart from this very logical stereo separation, the right side seems to have a higher frequency response, so that the cross-over is, in effect, doing some of the work of separating the channels.

I did two things this weekend that make me think your solution COULD lie with one of the Avants:

First, I used my N2 as a stereo loudspeaker as I did some chores around the house. (Basically, I piped into the N2 line-ins either the high quality version of Pandora (Lexus is presently sponsoring a 30-day free trial of this service, so I tried it) or CDs ripped using Apple Lossless in iTunes.) Whether instrumental or vocal, the speaker system struck me as very detailed and satisfying -- the speakers are not purely piano reproduction devices, but instead work for a range of applications. Now, having said this, I should tell you that I'm not a hi-fi connoisseur. I didn't sit at the N2 and A/B the thing against my Sennheiser HD 580s and HD 600s and then run downstairs and check everything against my Boston Acoustic loudspeakers and my Bose bookshelf speakers and my Bose SoundDock 10. (Yeah, I'm one of those people; I actually sometimes buy Bose stuff.) I just concluded that I like the N2 speakers to a surprising extent.

Second, after I finished the chores I mentioned, I sat at the N2 and "A/B-ed" the internal sound against the Galaxy Vintage D and HAD A LOT OF FUN. I found that you really don't need a lot of effects (like you do with headphones) when running the Vintage D into the N2, so I used the "Basic Grand" setting and just brightened it up a bit with the "Colour" control in Kontakt. In my view, the Vintage D was an improvement over the internal Yamaha samples, which lack a variety of color. This talk about whether the Avant has a CFIIIS in it or a CFX is, in my mind, silliness. Whatever the source piano for the Avant, it's a too-pale version of the original. (I've played a few CFIIISs, and in my dreams the Avant would be that good.) I'm also skeptical of the mic positioning stuff. The way to test that would be to sit two Avants side-by-side and pipe the line-outs from the first (Avant 1) into the line-ins of the second (Avant 2) and compare the sound Avant 1 generates through Avant 2 to the internal sound of Avant 2 -- probably using the demo solo performances. My guess is that the difference would be subtle and nearly immaterial. (NB: Put headphones into the headphone jack of Avant 1 to kill the internal sound of Avant 1.)

The fact that you are dumping a Kawai RX-3 because it's unworkable, despite great effort, indicates to me that you have very specific tastes. The use of the Avant that I have described here may or may not work for you. I am simply suggesting that you give the Avant a try before loading up on speakers (driven by what MIDI controller -- an Avant?) that may be unnecessarily high end for your specific purposes.

A little thing to be aware of with DSP speakers is that they can introduce some delay into the signal. It appears that those Genelecs introduce about 4ms. This probably won't be enough to bother anyone, but IMHO it's a spec to double check before purchasing DSP speakers in general, if you will be playing live instruments through them. Presumably the type of people who would buy high end speakers like this would know to check this spec anyway.

Comparing to the delay through the first analog crossover speakers I found with Google (0.5ms), that's a 3.5ms penalty, and is equivalent to moving the speakers away from you by a bit over a metre.

Greg.

Actually not, at least I didn't think of myself that way. It's just that I spent my technical life in speech processing where I had trained my ears to hear small distortions, and then worked back through the algorithms to find their source. So my problem is that, I don't hear consistency from note to note. When I am playing, when I strike the bad notes, they jump out at me as they are even brighter and more harsh than their neighbors. Having said that, and having learned about the multiplicity piano qualities, I now have developed a taste for a very smooth, mellow sound, not one that is popular with contemporary players.


You have performed the experiment I have been asking about for some time now. Perhaps I've missed it, but I can't recall any other post where someone actually used the Avant as a MIDI controller and run a software piano into the AUX IN. Thank you so much for going to the effort. I really appreciate it and thank you very much.

I will do as you suggest and take my laptop to my local Yamaha dealer and try your experiment. If it works, you have saved me from the whole speaker thing.

Great post!

One more suggestion, in light of your most recent post. Even though the Kawai RX may make you wary of the manufacturer, try the Shigeru Kawai -- extremely regular in its tone/voicing and action. To me, as good as or nearly as good as a Steingraeber, at considerably less cost. Were I in the market for an acoustic, that'd be up at the top of my list, though I'd have to look at a lot of other pianos to make sure I'd covered all that's out there.

Sorry to throw a spanner into the works here but I'd like to make a couple of points...

Firstly in my opinion kippesc is completely wrong in thinking the four channel elements in the native Yamaha sound are "nearly immaterial". When used as a stand alone piano the AG (N3 in particular) is undoubtedly the best single electronic package that emulates a real grand piano and it is my opinion that the four channel sound plays a significant part in this.

Secondly, and probably more significant to OldFingers is that I don't believe the AG will work well with a software piano (specifically when wishing to route the software piano's audio back into AG). Kippesc is not the first person on the forum to try this by the way. I don't want to offend anyone but I would perhaps even question kippesc's listening skills here because the line-in on the AG has a recognised problem (or characteristic if you are being kind), and that is a noise gate. This is no issue when playing music (from hi-fi/iPod etc), but is a total deal-breaker when using a software piano. When notes decay and the lingering piano tone gets quiet enough the AG's noise gate closes and abruptly cuts off the sound. This is very noticeable to me and makes the AG's line-in unusable for this purpose in my view. Yamaha are aware of this by the way and there is no fix - it is a characteristic of the componentry in the AG (N3 certainly).

One final thing - OldFingers, have you ever tried the AvantGrand N3? If not I suggest you do before making assumptions about its tone. It may indeed not be to your liking but you should try it before dismissing it.

Good luck,

Steve

I did not notice the noise gate issue. It may be there, and I think I was pretty clear in stating I'm not a hi-fi connoisseur. I do know what a good piano sounds like, and I believe the importance of the mic placement stuff has been overemphasized, especially when applied to the N2.

Re the noise gate, it might be possible to inject a tone that is high enough or low enough in frequency, and low enough in volume, such that its virtually inaudible, but is still able to fool the noise gate. ( a noise gate-crasher!)
I.e, mix in this tone with your Ivory piano etc.

Greg.

The noise gate issue in the AGs is news to me. Can anyone provide some links to additional information on the issue? How fast does this gate close down (nearly instantly, 5 seconds)? What value are the line-ins in light of this? What is the intended purpose of the line-ins? (I primarily use them for iReal b and play-along tracks.)

Well, there's an idea!

A much better mind than mine has applied itself to this particular problem and found no solution. I have personally experienced it not with a software piano (as has another forum member) but with a vocal mic effects unit. The reverb applied to vocals suddenly dies when plugged into the line-in on the AG - I mean dies very prematurely, just cuts off as it subsides. So I think it would wreck a lovely lingering piano decay just as it gets down to the relevant (admittedly low) volume level.

Cheers,

Steve

I have no doubt that for someone, somewhere finds the noisegate to be a problem in practice, but I'd be hesitant to discount Kippesc's experience A/B-ing it with a software piano in the comfortable environment of his house. People on the forums often complain about problems that don't have a practical impact, just because they've heard of them. For example, the forum is currently awash with people talking about how great Vintage D is and how well it works--many of these people are not using the latest update. Just a while ago the opinion was the opposite because under some circumstance there was an issue with repeating notes killing previous sustains. There were big threads of people complaining that it was completely unusable and worthless, with no one defending it. It's almost unavoidable that we "hear" problems if we have prior information that biases us against the product. For that reason I take reported problems with the same grain of salt that I take gushing compliments, particularly if the person reporting it hasn't performed the specific test in question.

We have kippesc's experience that the noise gate isn't an issue for him while using a software piano and that the speakers are pretty good. Essbrace apparently has experience on the opposite side, though his anecdote was less explicit and on point (because it wasn't with a software piano...I see no reason why software pianos are more like the vocal effects unit than like recorded music). Since the experiment isn't hard, I say OldFingers should do what he said he would and give it a try...see if it bothers him. After all, I was never able to replicate the supposed problem with Vintage D, nor were many other satisfied pianists. This will also give OldFingers a chance to see if the speakers are good enough, or if he wants ultimately to go with external speakers, which is a pretty central question here.

A forum member that was explicitly trying to get his N3 to control software pianos and another DP as a tone generator experienced the noise gating issue that ruined his attempts to find a satisfactory outcome. I fully discussed this particular issue with the member in question at very great length in private correspondence and know what efforts went into getting the problem addressed.

I have now replicated the issue by other means. The decay on a piano sound or the dissipation of reverb on a vocal sound causes the noise gating effect when there is still important sonic information going on. Playing an iPod or something through the piano would be unlikely to cause the noise gating effect - in the event the iPod (or whatever) was playing quietly enough to cause the noise gating effect in my opinion this would be more likely to be at an unimportant moment (like the last seconds of a track fading out for instance).

I don't really know why I bother to be honest...let OldFingers (or whoever) invest loads of effort to discover the problem may be detrimental to their enjoyment. I'm sorry my anecdote was not explicit or on point enough. OldFinger's first priority should be to try the N3 as it is, then decide if alternative tone generation might be required to suit his tastes better.

EssBrace, when I mentioned that your anecdote wasn't on point I really just wanted to make sure that all first hand experiences are appropriately taken into account. It's super easy, for any of us including myself, to get caught up in heresay. I didn't mean to make it personal.

I think we all appreciate you adding to the conversation. Bringing this noise gating issue to the attention of people who might want to buy an AG and use it for speakers is very useful to them and informative to all of us. I'm sorry that you don't find your N3 speakers satisfactory for playing software piano sounds. Luckily there are a lot of good speakers out there.

No problem. I think it's right to share this as many people out there might well consider using the AG to drive (and then amplify) a software piano. It's a poor show by Yamaha that they have not equipped the AG to do this particularly well in my opinion (the amplify bit) - after all, it's an obvious use for their piano. I'm not saying the AG is unusable for this purpose by everyone - but it's an issue users need to be aware of.

I can only imagine that Yamaha just couldn't predict a need for this functionality - perhaps they thought their flagship product would never need to be paired up with other piano sounds - but that is naive, if indeed it is what they thought.

The AG is not a perfect piano by any means. It has a rather static sounding decay, especially through headphones. It doesn't quite sustain enough (again, much more pronounced through headphones). And there is this issue with a noise gate on the line-ins. All that said, I still find it a uniquely satisfying thing to play. Maybe they'll address some of these points with AG mk II one day.

Well I for one appreciate and admire your honesty. It would have been just my luck to try the N3 in a showroom, be delighted, and get it into the quiet of my music room and then hear the noise-gating problem. Now I can be on the look-out for it.

Years ago, before I bought the RX-3 I wanted to go digital so I bought Yamaha's top-of-the-line (at the time) CLP-280. It sounded fine in the showroom, but when I got it home, within the hour I was complaining to the dealer. There were phasing problems in the fifth octave because, at that time, Yamaha was trying to save some memory by interpolating notes. I made such a fuss that they did some experiments in the California laboratory, agreed with me, and took the piano back. It was then that I went to the RX-3 and undertook a new set of problems.

So I really appreciate Essbrace's willingness to share his knowledge, and I will take his advice and try the N3. I'll try Ivory too and listen for the noise-gating problem and the spatial limitations of the stereo-in. How can it not be a good thing to be fore-warned of potentially serious problems in sound quality. I wish someone had warned me about the RX-3.

Thanks.

Okay. Having now learned of a noise-gate issue, I fired up the Avantgrand N2/Galaxy Vintage D rig and played "The Girl with the Flaxen Hair." EsseBrace is correct: On very quiet, sustained notes that are dying away (the last two measures, for example), the notes begin to cut in and out, as though some smart aleck is playing a game with you and turning the volume control up and down, up and down, up and down. Yesterday, I was playing a quick Mozart piece and some jazz, so I did not pick this issue up. Had I picked it up, I'd have been completely at a loss as to what the cause was (hard drive error, Kontakt, Galaxy, cable . . . ARRRRRRGH), so I'm very glad this issue is now known to me. Talk about strange. Why on earth would this issue be built into (apparently irrevocably) this $10,000 high end digital device? It's not going to keep me up at night because I've owned the thing for more than one year and, obviously, never pipe software pianos through it, but wow, why install line-ins at all?

I think this thread needs a noise gate!