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#1776950 - 10/25/11 02:06 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
qualia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/25/11
Posts: 56
What these kids do is absolutely incredible, no doubt. But sometimes, with the grading schemes it feels a heck of a lot like rhythmic gymanistics and not very much like art.

What is the visual art equivalent? Do they have grades and exams, so you can be XY-17 by age 9? What would you be doing? Reproducing and interpreting famous artworks from different eras in painting, sculpture, etc. under time pressure?

This is why classical music is dead. But on the upside, if we keep up the codification and quantification of "skill", piano may be added to the olympics soon.
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#1777004 - 10/25/11 04:18 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
Orange Soda King Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 6084
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky, United S...
I feel that we need to hear the young pianist's point of view and explain how much he loves (or doesn't love) what he's doing before just throwing out statements like "He'll grow up to hate it", or how it's just mimicking teachers and recordings instead of art.

I mean, sure, it's hard to be a profound, experienced artist when one is young, but that's a part of the growing process, is it not?

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#1777183 - 10/25/11 09:22 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
macbug Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/20/11
Posts: 80
Loc: Vancouver
i think the concern is the amount of practice required for these kids to get to where they are when it is difficult to get any kid to sit down and focus on something for hours on end. there's been too many examples of parents living vicariously through their child nowaday, and my fear is that they are motivated to play for the wrong reasons even if they are naturally talented and enjoy the music

from personal experience sometimes mixing your hobby with your job just turns it into a chore

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#1777263 - 10/26/11 12:20 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
kahlong94 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 4
Haha for those of you who wants to know what the song name is. I don't remember, it's been really long since i played it :P but it's something like Ruins of the Athens.

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#1777446 - 10/26/11 10:59 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: kahlong94]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6470
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: kahlong94
Haha for those of you who wants to know what the song name is. I don't remember, it's been really long since i played it :P but it's something like Ruins of the Athens.


Yes - after a long introduction the piece eventually morphs into a paraphrase of Beethoven's Turkish March from the Ruins of Athens - but obviously this modern arrangement is not by Beethoven. smile
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#1777454 - 10/26/11 11:15 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
izaldu Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/08
Posts: 1255
Loc:
I have this friend in London who was a piano "prodigy". Her brother told me this, she never did. She still loves music (in her mid 30s now), and met her Anyway , he told me she was "freaky", started playing at 9-10, was playing the Rach 2nd and 3rd concertos at age 15. She got a lot of pressure from the Conservatory and her environment, and kept playing. She only played live in small venues and for chamber music programs only. By the time she went to Uni at 18, she totally gave up piano and has never played again. There s still a grand Yamaha at her parent' s, but she s never sat at it ever again. Whenever i ve spoken to her about it, she doesn t say she ended up hating it, just that she liked a different life and career better (she s a quite successful recruiter now), and that she was not going to play piano part time only.

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#1777488 - 10/26/11 12:44 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: carey]
AZNpiano Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5596
Loc: Orange County, CA
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: kahlong94
Haha for those of you who wants to know what the song name is. I don't remember, it's been really long since i played it :P but it's something like Ruins of the Athens.


Yes - after a long introduction the piece eventually morphs into a paraphrase of Beethoven's Turkish March from the Ruins of Athens - but obviously this modern arrangement is not by Beethoven. smile


It took some investigation, but I found it:

Fantasie ├╝ber Motive aus Beethovens Ruinen von Athen, S.122 (Liszt, Franz)

http://imslp.org/wiki/Fantasie_%C3%BCber_Motive_aus_Beethovens_Ruinen_von_Athen,_S.122_(Liszt,_Franz)

I think the player took a cut in the beginning and skipped the cadenza.
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#1777555 - 10/26/11 02:23 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
This is how Liszt gets a reputation for writing trashy music. There is nothing musical about this performance. There is just episode after episode of complex and difficult passagework, none of it connected in a long line that would give you a sense of the piece as a whole. The playing is sloppy; the opening trills for example give little evidence that there is a melody buried in all that labored effort. There is no lightness in the playing, and a sense of bravura is missing because the performer does not have a comfortable and relaxed command of the material. He can barely show an ability to create a tonal contrast from bar to bar.

This music could probably be credibly performed by Cyprien Katsaris, Arcadi Volodos (who has his own spectacular version of the Turkish March of Mozart), or Marc-Andre Hamelin. A teacher should not assign this music to a teenager no matter how talented because it is not clear the student would have a mature control of the instrument. This does not just mean a mature interpretive skill - it means an ability to play a virtuoso piece with complete relaxation which comes after many years of experience.

As a result, this performer does no credit to himself and does a complete disservice to Liszt.

[It is not clear from the score that the Alternativo (Andante fantastico) should serve as a replacement for the opening section that precedes it. By performing it this way, there is little hint until halfway through the composition that you are listening to a transcription of the Ruins of Athens. Maybe it was intended to be added to the first section.]


Edited by Numerian (10/26/11 04:14 PM)

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#1777618 - 10/26/11 04:06 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Numerian]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6470
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona

I originally suspected that the piece might have been by Liszt - but it just didn't add up. Now it all makes sense. Thanks !!

Here's a "performance" (piano roll by Ferruccio Busoni) of the original complete work. The section that our 13 year old pianist plays starts at around 4:50 in this recording. And yes - by starting at this point in the piece the listener doesn't realize this is a transcription of the Turkish March from the Ruins of Athens until halfway though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsdWyPBeDJI





Edited by carey (10/26/11 04:07 PM)
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#1777642 - 10/26/11 04:35 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
This was the Fantasie on Themes from the Ruins of Athens, S. 122 in solo version. Our 13 year old artist performed the Capriccio on the same themes, S. 388. There is some similarity at the opening but then the two works veer off in different directions. It is as if Liszt had an endless variety of piano variations he could concoct for any music. The Fantasie is also available with orchestral accompaniment and 2nd piano accompaniment. I wonder why it isn't performed as a piano concerto? It is certainly both musical and effective. Maybe it is hard to find the individual scores for the orchestra players.

Busoni was thought of by his contemporaries as one of the cleanest performers around, and it shows. He is virtually note perfect, with elegant style, and attention to the long line I was talking about earlier. His piano on this recording roll from 1907 sounds wonderfully rich - I think they used Steinways for these piano rolls.


Edited by Numerian (10/26/11 04:36 PM)

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#1777661 - 10/26/11 04:59 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6470
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Numerian - Thanks for the clarification.

A Capriccio AND a Fantasie....that's almost TOO much of a good thing. crazy

Fantasie (orchestral version S.122)
Fantasie (solo piano version S. 389)
Capriccio (solo piano S. 388)

Here's the Capriccio (well worth listening to). The 13 year old pianist started playing at around 2:50 into the piece. Big difference between the two performances !! grin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJugrSf9El4


Edited by carey (10/26/11 05:01 PM)
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#1777687 - 10/26/11 05:39 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
Who is the artist? Certainly a professional, but there is no identification. If it is the person posting the recording then they are overly modest.

Try this! Michel Beroff playing the piano accompanied by orchestra of S.122. A spectacular performance. It begs the question once again: why isn't this piece in the regular repertoire for orchestras and pianists?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJzKVDiBbtU

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#1777827 - 10/26/11 09:18 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: carey]
kahlong94 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 4
Haha i didn't skip the first part. The person who recorded it only started recording after 4 minutes :P I played the whole piece. (badly) frown i didnt know what mistakes were when i was that age.


Edited by kahlong94 (10/26/11 09:20 PM)

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#1777937 - 10/27/11 01:20 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6470
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Kahlong94 -

Thanks for the further explanation !! Makes sense !!

I see that the original video is over 3 years old.

Are you still studying piano??
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#1778016 - 10/27/11 07:52 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: carey]
kahlong94 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/24/11
Posts: 4
Originally Posted By: carey
Kahlong94 -

Thanks for the further explanation !! Makes sense !!

I see that the original video is over 3 years old.

Are you still studying piano??



You're most welcome. Haven't been playing regularly, but i do sometimes when i'm free smile Just fiddling with songs i like.

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#1778022 - 10/27/11 08:21 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
Numerian Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 1075
I hope so too. Remember, it is not just the mistakes that need fixing in the performance. It is the interpretation that matters more, and in the long run, that is more interesting and fun to work on than just the mechanical aspects. Also, there are hundreds of other pieces you can work on, including some by Liszt, that will show off your considerable technical talents but also allow you to play the music with confidence and musical flair. I think this is why conservatories assign the Chopin etudes to their advanced students; they are great pieces for working simultaneously on your technique and your musical understanding.

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#1778121 - 10/27/11 11:49 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Ataru074]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Ataru074

When I think about pianist that gave me something "more" I think about Rubinstein, Horowitz, Askenazy, Arrau, Richter, Algerich, Gould... and many more... and I don't picture their faces as kids.
Almost all the above were phenomenal pianists at an early age. Much better than the pianist in the OP's video, although he's extremley good also.

In fact, almost all the great pianists were incredibly good at an early age.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/27/11 04:17 PM)

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#1778126 - 10/27/11 11:54 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Orange Soda King]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King
I feel that we need to hear the young pianist's point of view and explain how much he loves (or doesn't love) what he's doing before just throwing out statements like "He'll grow up to hate it", or how it's just mimicking teachers and recordings instead of art.

I mean, sure, it's hard to be a profound, experienced artist when one is young, but that's a part of the growing process, is it not?
Totally agree. And I think some of the greatest pianists are even profound at age 13.

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#1778130 - 10/27/11 11:57 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Numerian]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Numerian
A teacher should not assign this music to a teenager no matter how talented because it is not clear the student would have a mature control of the instrument. This does not just mean a mature interpretive skill - it means an ability to play a virtuoso piece with complete relaxation which comes after many years of experience.
Many, probably most, of the great pianists had a high level of virutoso technique already by the age of 13 or soon thereafter.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/27/11 11:58 AM)

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#1778236 - 10/27/11 03:32 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
MadForBrad Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/11/11
Posts: 202
Loc: LA / Montreal
i am always curious to see the human side of these kids. An interview asking them kid questions.

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#1778256 - 10/27/11 04:00 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: kahlong94]
Quaver Pyjama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 114
Originally Posted By: kahlong94

You're most welcome. Haven't been playing regularly, but i do sometimes when i'm free smile Just fiddling with songs i like.

Hey, don't give up on your dream - you decide your life. Go for what you want.

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#1778259 - 10/27/11 04:13 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
Quaver Pyjama Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/11
Posts: 114
By the way, the person you are all talking about has posted on this thread.
I would suggest to stop this trend of criticizing someone who has no chance of answering back. Or worse, when it is possible - as with this case - for the person in question to visit this website and find a discussion, many times a stupid and pointless one, about him.

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#1778266 - 10/27/11 04:34 PM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: MadForBrad]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: MadForBrad
i am always curious to see the human side of these kids. An interview asking them kid questions.
Some examples of what you're looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq2cFawDeTk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiMY2HtxPPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwHCi_5YGWE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMMSLYZ0mXQ&feature=related

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#1784002 - 11/06/11 03:38 AM Re: Wow! FTCL at the age of 13! [Re: Gould]
pianist.ame Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/18/07
Posts: 1166
Loc: Singapore
how about this girl:
"at the age of ten, Tami completed her ARCT (Associate of the Royal Conservatory of Toronto), finishing both the academic and piano performance requirements of the diploma with first class honours with distinction."... you can find her on youtube as well!!

there other pianists who don't even have their arct like Annie Zhou but really have achieved something to be proud of already smile
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