Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
151 registered (A Guy, acollins, ajames, Almaviva, 41 invisible), 1853 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 9 of 13 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 >
Topic Options
#1665379 - 04/23/11 12:15 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Jackson Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 588
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Hmmm...Google brings up other Silver publications. These links just give the names or starts of the works, not the actual text, although the last two can be reached through JSTOR:

http://openlibrary.org/books/OL20237831M/Notes_on_the_duodecimal_division_of_the_octave.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3614300

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2316896



Edited by Jake Jackson (04/23/11 12:17 PM)

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#1665428 - 04/23/11 02:52 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Jake Jackson]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

"An unequal temperament is described in which the fifths and fourths of the tuning chain have the same beat rate."

http://gfax.ch/literature/Equal_Beating_Chromatic_Scale--Silver.pdf

Jake, I do not have access to the links you posted. Me too, I've looked for other material without success. And only recently I got to know about A. L. Leigh Silver's work. Where is he from?

a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1665466 - 04/23/11 04:32 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Jackson Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 588
Loc: Atlanta, GA
England. He was a physician and the son of an organist, one note says. See the editor's note at the bottom of http://www.jstor.org/pss/2316896 .

How did you run across his work?

I want to find a copy of his "Notes on the Duodecimal Division of the Octave." I can access the other two articles on JSTOR, as can anyone affiliated with a university with a library that subscribes. I can't post the articles, however, or links to them. And right now, it's the end of the academic term, here, so I'm stretched a bit too thin to even look them up.

(Highly recommended--as you probably know, in the past few years, most of the major journals have scanned their old editions and put them online. JSTOR is a set of servers that collects them all and makes them available so that each journal\university department doesn't have to have its own server. The J. of the American Acoustical Society, the Proceedings of the Royal Society, and many other journals are available, and can be accessed from home.)


Edited by Jake Jackson (04/24/11 12:46 AM)

Top
#1665621 - 04/24/11 12:55 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Jackson Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 588
Loc: Atlanta, GA
(But Alfredo, I must say that my impression is that your tunings, from what I've been able to learn from your posts, seem to be partly derived from your sense of chromatics and from the Italian tradition of tuning for singers. I love the sound of CHase, and partly understand the theory behind it, but I would like to learn more about the tradition of the tuners you studied with.)

Top
#1665825 - 04/24/11 02:43 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Jake,

I'm going to PM you and, for what I can, tell you about the tuners I've met and studied with.

Don't you think it would be nice to compare Silver's EBS with other equal beating UTs? One is Bill's, do you know about others?

http://gfax.ch/literature/Equal_Beating_Chromatic_Scale--Silver.pdf

Regards, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1692896 - 06/09/11 12:34 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello.

Three days ago I found a video I made last September with my pocket camera.

I hope you too will like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfq0CJ1gOg

Regards to All, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1692974 - 06/09/11 02:20 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1743
Loc: Colorado
Very nice sound, Alfredo. Thanks for sharing the video.

Glen
_________________________

A Bit of YouTube
PTG Associate Member

Top
#1693089 - 06/09/11 05:33 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Johnson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/08
Posts: 84

I hope you'll find the time to do more videos, Alfredo. Those that David did for his well temperament are wonderful. It would be nice to have a similar collection of performances, filmed close-up and collected over time. Do you ever go to England...?

Good to see you back on the forum. I'm looking forward to hearing more examples of the CHas when you get the time to record them.


Edited by Jake Johnson (06/09/11 05:34 PM)

Top
#1693903 - 06/11/11 11:00 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hello to All.

Thank you, Glen, and Jake for the input you gave me. Could you link David's well temperament for me?

I've found a professional video, one hour of very nice music. The piano is an F308, the artist is Mariangela Vacatello. The event is part of a festival that takes place every year in Milano and Torino.

Chas Tuning at MITO - September 2010 - F308:
http://www.mitosettembremusica.it/multimedia/video/2010-09-09-milano-9608.html

Your comments are welcome.

Regards, a.c.

Chas Tuning - 2010 - "Rina Sala Gallo" International Piano Competition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfq0CJ1gOg

Chas Tuning mp3 - 2011 - Live recording on Fazioli 278):
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

Chas Tuning mp3 - 2009 - Amateur recording - Steinway S (5' 1" - 155 cm):
http://www.box.net/shared/od0d7506cv
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1693982 - 06/11/11 04:10 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Johnson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/08
Posts: 84
I’ll have to listen to your new recording later. Running around a bit today. For the moment, here’s one video using David’s temperament:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zxNrQuxfNY&feature=related

There are 508 of his videos here, most of them of pianos tuned to his well temperament:

http://www.youtube.com/user/latribe#p/u

And here’s the thread in which this variation of a well temperament was or is being discussed here on the forum:

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1590814/Some%20sweet%20video's:%20an%20older%20p.html#Post1590814

Top
#1694137 - 06/12/11 01:36 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

Sounds like a very nice equal temperament tuning. How does it differ from a nice equal temperament tuning that is not "Chas"?

Kees

Top
#1694473 - 06/12/11 05:36 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Thank you, Kees, for your feedback. I'm glad you can now address to Chas.

You write:

"Sounds like a very nice equal temperament tuning. How does it differ from a nice equal temperament tuning that is not "Chas"?"

If I can ask, which equal temperament are you referring to? If you asked someone for the current definition of equal temperament, the answer may be that it is "a variant of 12th root of two". Notice, a "variant" that is based - logically speaking - on a lame model and an approximate iH calculation.

Today we can see that a "variant" of that kind stays to Chas model's geometry like a roundish figure stays to a circle.

In these terms, your comment and relative question would be:

"Looks like a very nice roundish figure. How does it differ from a nice roundish figure that is not a circle?"

Jake, thanks for those links.

Regards, a.c.



Edited by alfredo capurso (06/12/11 07:00 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1724139 - 07/31/11 06:25 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Thank you, Bill, for representing your 12ths/15ths equal beating tuning in explicit form.

Thread: Anybody Deliberately Tune Pure Twelfths?
Bill Bremmer RPT - July 31, 2011 04:29 PM

"I don't tune perfectly pure 12ths, I make them equal beating with double octaves. They sound very nearly pure but technically, they are not. However, when tuning the high treble from F6 to the top, I often tune pure double octave-fifths."...

Yes. In fact, how you tune F6 (as a double octave-fifths) is the direct consequence of how you have tempered F3, A#3 and the other notes in your temperament section. And more, the whole tuning will depend on how you have tempered the first 25 notes, i.e the number of notes you need for balancing 12ths and 15ths. You now understand why your 12ths and 15ths may invert.

You wrote: ..."The equal beating double octave and octave-fifths (the PTG Journal's preferred nomenclature) provide for excellent "beat masking" (as Bernhard Stopper calls it). I also think of beat masking as beat cancellation or beat suppression. When that exact compromise is achieved, (take the example of the F3-F5 double octave), playing F3-A#3-F4 and F5 at the same time will yield an uncanny stillness even though none of the intervals are actually beatless."...

I'm glad, you sound ready for sharing and (perhaps) supporting new conjectures and modern ET models. Thanks for specifing also:

..."This is true for ET, Quasi ET and any mild Well Temperament or mild Meantone or mild Modified Meantone. It makes the whole Midrange and well into the Bass and Treble sound very clean and in tune with itself, regardless of temperament."...

Indeed, equal beating double octave and octave-fifths may work also as a tool; to a certain extent it can "adjust" or "make up for" some inconsintences in the temperament...if you use it as a tool. If/When you gain that as THE scale ratio, namely as the natural and coherent* outcome of your settled tuning (in my experience), you get the top, you get right to the Reason.

..."I have done this for at least 25 years."...

Well done.

*: in terms of EB constants and intervals beat-curves

Best regards, a.c.
.


Edited by alfredo capurso (07/31/11 06:50 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1736361 - 08/19/11 06:47 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hello.

Sometime ago I received some unexpected words from Professor Ernest G. McClain. He is an elderly researcher who has deepened on historical and religious issues concerning music and numbers...you too may find of some interest reading about his very relevant works:

http://www.ernestmcclain.net/

Yesterday I realized that Professor McClain had published our mailing, so I can share his comments on Chas model with you:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bibal/message/23949


In these days I'm working on a conference, within a symposium on "Dreams", trying to emphasize the relationship between geometry and our universal "harmonic" affinities. And, of course, trying to explain with graphs and numbers that today - in music - we can depart from the theoretical and practical "compromise" and consciously share and enjoy an Optimum. I will appreciate your thoughts and comments.

Regards, a.c.

CHAS Tuning mp3 - 2011 - Live recording on Fazioli 278
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

CHAS Temperament - 2010 - "Rina Sala Gallo" Piano International Competiton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfq0CJ1gOg

CHAS THEORY - Research report by G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

Chas Preparatory Tuning (December 15, 2009):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1383831/1.html




Edited by alfredo capurso (08/19/11 06:56 AM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1736367 - 08/19/11 07:17 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4977
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso

.....

I will appreciate your thoughts and comments.

.....


There are many roads to En-dor.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1737883 - 08/21/11 07:52 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

From: #1737002 - August 20, 2011 10:01 AM Re: ET vs 2 different well temperaments video [Re: Steve W]

Hi TunerFish, in turn...welcome on board!

Do you tune aurally?

When you say "Standard Equal Temperament", I do not know what you mean.

Please tell me/us: how do you tune "ET" 4ths, 5ths, octaves, 12ths and 15ths?

And, how do you expand your X favorite tuning outside the temperament area?

When you state: "...interpretation of the music must by necessity change when played on different tunings. Pianists will instinctively alter their interpretation based on what they are hearing. I do an entire lecture/recital on this very subject. For each tuning a pianist will quite subconsciously change tempo, phrasing and pedaling. If you don't, the music won't sound musical and it won't make sense. If, for example, you were to play something that is in a very lush key in a Well Temperament, you would be likely to play it more slowly so that you can enjoy the subtle nuances of the tuning. However, because there is no key coloration in ET and all these nuances are lost, if you played it that slowly in ET it would be deathly boring. So, the tendency is to play faster and look for other ways to make the music make musical sense. This, IMHO, is why most concert pianists for the last several decades tend to play everything too fast."...

I really think (with all due respect) you must have taken a tangent. And I'm not discussing your musical sense, what is lush and what is morbid, how long you like suffering on a wolfish interval, nor how long you like "staying" on a chord that pleases you. And I'm not discussing your "color" soil nor your struggle with boredom.

I'm just saying that, within your own sad and anachronistic war against ET, you ought to show respect for the many pianists that have mastered timing and philological interpretation for years and years.

You may also be able to realize how long a perfect tuning "form" (read ET geometry) may last on a piano (before it turns into a sort of WT), like on any tense/deformable structure which is exposed to external forces; more or less, it will last as long as these rings:

http://www.zoomin.tv/site/video.cfm/lang...i-fumo-perfetti

So, all in all, I'd say: are you happy with your WT tunings? Good for you, in a way you are lucky.

Do you want to speculate on ET tuning? Then, you could do your home work and learn more about modern ET's geometry.

BTW, what is your name?

Regards, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1773459 - 10/19/11 11:27 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hi.

From the thread: EBVT: key color vs bad tuning technique [Re: Steve W]
#1770312 - October 14, 2011 10:58 AM

Ed Foote RPT wrote:..."Bach's writings, if considered teaching aids, certainly could be showing how to effectively use the harmonic resources found in the normal tunings of his day, (and I don't think ET was one of them). The WTC pieces do this,(compare the treatment of the third in, say, the preludes of C and C#). When we consider Chopin's music, we can see how he often is using melodic fifths over a highly tempered background harmony. This is where the textural effect of WT's can be heard clearly, and interestingly enough, pianists playing Chopin on a temperament with 18 cent thirds seem to find it clearer. I think removing the haze of tempering that hangs over the equal temperament allows the true harmonic colors to be displayed.
I equate ET with the pollution that covered the Sistene Chapel ceiling. The true colors of the artist were greatly reduced by its effect, but people had become so used to it that when the first panels were cleaned, there were many that argued we should keep it all covered up, like it had been all their lives! I submit that the brash colors Michaelangelo used are far more beautiful than the soot-covered, dim, outlines of his work that time had left us with. I think the same thing about Beethoven's use of key color, and from my own experience, the piano world is gradually loosening its grip on the security of the familiar in favor of the challenge and beauty of the original."

- . - . - .-

Ed, you are certainly allowed to your own opinions (that I respect) but for me it is a shame when, moving from questionable premises, you get to more questionable conclusions. And it seems (to me) that you have not been able to acknowledge a couple of things about tunings.

You mention "harmonic resources". What is there behind these nice-sounding words, what do you mean? I can enjoy both Bach's preludes in C and C#, but both keys have to sound "in tune". And you should know that, in Bach's days - before any "color" claim could arise - theorists, composers and tuners had just one problem, a centuries-old problem. That problem was related to primes 2, 3 and 5, the numbers that within a 12-semitones span will define our octave, fifths and thirds. In those days "color" wasn't a problem at all. Actually, from your point of view, they had so much…color, many unequal temperaments that could not solve THE problem: How to make all keys and all intervals sound in tune?

You say that ET tuning, in Bach's days, was not "normal". Please, would you be able to tell what is today's "normal" ET tuning? When 12 root of two was introduced, the approach to the scale went different: from a 12-semitones span, where you would temper intervals by fixing single intervals ratios, they developed the idea of a geometric set, a set of N notes that could be ordered in a geometric progression and that could lead to a sound-whole.

Today, it is not by copying 12 or 16 notes from the temperament section that a tuner can achieve the ET geometry. And if you realize that we were left with the "pure-octaves" axiom, if you think about the tuning of fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths, 15ths, if you acknowledge how these intervals are coped with, somehow artistically and/or mysteriously managed, how can you think in terms of "normal" ET tuning. Is it modern ETD's "variants" you are referring to?

You wrote: …"When we consider Chopin's music, we can see how he often is using melodic fifths over a highly tempered background harmony. This is where the textural effect of WT's can be heard clearly, and interestingly enough, pianists playing Chopin on a temperament with 18 cent thirds seem to find it clearer."…

How about 20 cent thirds? Wouldn't pianists find "textural effect" even clearer?

…"I think removing the haze of tempering that hangs over the equal temperament allows the true harmonic colors to be displayed."…

Here we are again onto the "color" conjecture, plus "harmonic", plus "true". I know that you refer "color" to your "pain and pleasure" experience, and how some keys should sound better than others. But doesn't "harmonic" (from harmonia, “joint, union, agreement, concord of sounds”) recall the USA motto "E pluribus unum", "Out of many, one"? And if "harmonic" refers to "one", if it refers to a "whole", which UT or WT, out of dozens, displays "true harmonic alternation of pain and pleasure"?

…"I equate ET with the pollution that covered the Sistene Chapel ceiling. The true colors of the artist..."…

About ET, I understand your frustration. To me, it seems that you haven't grasped the theoretical goal, and most probably you have not been able to experience ET's effects in practice. How do you tune fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths and 15ths? How do you switch the acrobatic expansion of 12 semitones to the tuning of a sound whole?

..."...the piano world is gradually loosening its grip on the security of the familiar in favor of the challenge and beauty of the original."

What you describe might happen, the "familiar" being what we witness every day, UTs and WTs whether we like it or not. But this does not mean that we should give up; in my experience, we can achieve a coherent sound whole and restore Aristoxene's idea, let me say THE original idea of a perfect, harmonious temperament.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Regards, a.c.

CHAS Tuning mp3 - 2011 - Live recording on Fazioli 278
http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/07c3ca3905_6.32MB

CHAS Temperament - 2010 - "Rina Sala Gallo" Piano International Competiton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfq0CJ1gOg

CHAS THEORY - Research report by G.R.I.M. (Department of Mathematics, University of Palermo, Italy):
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

Presentation on PW and discussion (May 07, 2009):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...%20-%20CHA.html

Chas Preparatory Tuning (December 15, 2009):
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1383831/1.html


Edited by alfredo capurso (10/19/11 07:01 PM)
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1773463 - 10/19/11 11:40 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4977
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Alfredo:

If you want to respond to a post it should be done in the Topic that the post was made in.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1773932 - 10/20/11 06:58 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Jeff,

I was able to read Steve's original post and thought that my reply to Ed (above) would have been off Topic.

.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1773934 - 10/20/11 07:04 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4977
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Alfredo:

Hmmm, the problem is Ed (or anyone else) might not look for a reply to what he said in one Topic in another Topic. It might be best to make a short post in the first Topic saying that you have something to say in response in a second Topic. smile
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#1774934 - 10/22/11 12:11 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
Alfredo writes,(in response to my posting);

>>Ed, you are certainly allowed to your own opinions (that I respect) but for me it is a shame when, moving from questionable premises, you get to more questionable conclusions. And it seems (to me) that you have not been able to acknowledge a couple of things about tunings.
You mention "harmonic resources". What is there behind these nice-sounding words, what do you mean?<<

What I mean about harmonic resources is the variety of tempering in the thirds, (and of course, the m3 and 6ths). In a well temperament, you have a variety of levels of stimulation, due to the variety of beat rate speed( or dissonance, if you prefer). These are the resources. A pure third causes one type of emotional reaction from listeners. A heavily tempered third causes something entirely different. A passage in a sonata that is meant to heighten the musical tension is almost always using a more highly tempered key. A passage designed to calm things down does not move into a more tempered key, it moves or is found in the keys with less tempering. This is so basic, I wonder why I am even asked about it.

>>I can enjoy both Bach's preludes in C and C#, but both keys have to sound "in tune". <<

And you are trying to say that a third that is 13.7 cents away from pure sounds "in tune" to you?? What the heck does a pure third sound like???

>>And you should know that, in Bach's days - before any "color" claim could arise - theorists, composers and tuners had just one problem, a centuries-old problem. That problem was related to primes 2, 3 and 5, the numbers that within a 12-semitones span will define our octave, fifths and thirds. In those days "color" wasn't a problem at all. Actually, from your point of view, they had so much…color, many unequal temperaments that could not solve THE problem: How to make all keys and all intervals sound in tune? <<

There is no way to make all the keys sound alike, unless you detune all the thirds and fifths. So there is a conundrum for you. In order to make all of them sound "in tune", you must somehow come to accept a 13.7 cent third as "in tune". I no longer hear it that way.

>>You say that ET tuning, in Bach's days, was not "normal". Please, would you be able to tell what is today's "normal" ET tuning? When 12 root of two was introduced, the approach to the scale went different: from a 12-semitones span, where you would temper intervals by fixing single intervals ratios, they developed the idea of a geometric set, a set of N notes that could be ordered in a geometric progression and that could lead to a sound-whole.<<

That sounds like gobbly-gook to me. Exactly what is a "sound-whole"? I have never heard anyone use the term before.

>>Today, it is not by copying 12 or 16 notes from the temperament section that a tuner can achieve the ET geometry. And if you realize that we were left with the "pure-octaves" axiom, if you think about the tuning of fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths, 15ths, if you acknowledge how these intervals are coped with, somehow artistically and/or mysteriously managed, how can you think in terms of "normal" ET tuning. Is it modern ETD's "variants" you are referring to? <<

No, I am referring to the equality. If all your like intervals are not tuned exactly alike, it is not an equal temperament. If they are all tempered alike, there is no difference in the sound of like thirds, (unless you believe there is some magic that causes different keys to have different emotional qualities.

You wrote: …"When we consider Chopin's music, we can see how he often is using melodic fifths over a highly tempered background harmony. This is where the textural effect of WT's can be heard clearly, and interestingly enough, pianists playing Chopin on a temperament with 18 cent thirds seem to find it clearer."…

>>How about 20 cent thirds? Wouldn't pianists find "textural effect" even clearer?<<

Yes, I have heard that said about Chopin's music when played on a Young temperament, which has a 21 cent third in it. The clarity arises from the contrast of the pure fifths against a tempered background.

…"I think removing the haze of tempering that hangs over the equal temperament allows the true harmonic colors to be displayed."…

>>Here we are again onto the "color" conjecture, plus "harmonic", plus "true". I know that you refer "color" to your "pain and pleasure" experience, and how some keys should sound better than others.<<

Pardon me, but I haven't used the word "better", which is your subjective value judgement. Color is the same as tempering, and what you are calling pain and pleasure is a variety of stimulation. Trying to say that some keys sound better than others is naive. Beethoven's "Pathetique" sounds awful to some people when played in ET, or if it is transposed in a WT to an unoriginal key like C. It sounds deader than a doornail and boring as heck.

>> But doesn't "harmonic" (from harmonia, “joint, union, agreement, concord of sounds”) recall the USA motto "E pluribus unum", "Out of many, one"? And if "harmonic" refers to "one", if it refers to a "whole", which UT or WT, out of dozens, displays "true harmonic alternation of pain and pleasure"? <<

You are trying to use a very narrow definition to obviate a much larger concept. In ET, there is no agreement, since none of the partials of the thirds is in concord with one another. So, by your strict definition, there can be no harmony in ET.
As far as which WT's go, they all share the same form, simply changing the amount of contrast. There is far less difference between them than there is between ET and any of them.

…"I equate ET with the pollution that covered the Sistene Chapel ceiling. The true colors of the artist..."…

>>About ET, I understand your frustration. To me, it seems that you haven't grasped the theoretical goal, and most probably you have not been able to experience ET's effects in practice.<<

I am not frustrated by ET, I am repulsed by ET when used for music that was composed to take advantage of the resources I have already mentioned. And if you believe that I, after three decades of selling ET's to professional musicians, haven't "experienced ET's effects in practice", then I submit that you are delusional. My tuning of ET has passed the standards set by Bill Garlick, the PTG, and countless international artists, so I submit that I am as experienced with the concept as anyone.

>> How do you tune fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths and 15ths? How do you switch the acrobatic expansion of 12 semitones to the tuning of a sound whole?<<

Once again, you are using a term you have not defined. expansion of the 12 semitones is stretching, which has nothing to do with equality.

..."...the piano world is gradually loosening its grip on the security of the familiar in favor of the challenge and beauty of the original."

>>What you describe might happen, the "familiar" being what we witness every day, UTs and WTs whether we like it or not. But this does not mean that we should give up; in my experience, we can achieve a coherent sound whole and restore Aristoxene's idea, let me say THE original idea of a perfect, harmonious temperament.<<

What is perfect about out of tune thirds? Unless you consider "in tune" to be what you are accustomed to? What I am describing is what I am observing in my practice. More and more pianists are becoming aware of how much more complex a WT is than and ET, and how boring ET in comparison.
Alfredo, are you a tuner? By that I mean, are you supporting yourself by tuning pianos, or are you debating this subject on the strength of theory? I am selling very expensive tunings to very discriminating professionals, and drawing my conclusions from their responses. I have yet to have an audience that favors ET when placed side by side with a WT, or even a mild Victorian style of UT. This includes classical, jazz, and pop musicians. I don't consider these to be "questionable" conclusions, but rather, conclusions that are supported by practice and money.
Regards,

Top
#1774941 - 10/22/11 12:31 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: alfredo capurso
And you should know that, in Bach's days - before any "color" claim could arise

Of course, especially before and up to "Bach's days", the color phenomena of UT was well known, and extensively written about. Please educate yourself before spouting (provable) nonsense.

Kees

Top
#1775874 - 10/23/11 07:29 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy
Hello.

Kees, I think you can do better than that.

Thank you, Ed, for your detailed reply.

I must say that I've received no answer about what is "normal" ET tuning. Nor you have answered about how you tune ET fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths and 15ths. Perhaps that would prove that "normal" ET tuning does not exist (yet).

If "normal" ET tuning does not exist, I do not know against what you and others are fighting. Wouldn't it be nice if your war could come to an end?

You wrote:..."What I mean about harmonic resources is the variety of tempering in the thirds, (and of course, the m3 and 6ths). In a well temperament, you have a variety of levels of stimulation, due to the variety of beat rate speed( or dissonance, if you prefer). These are the resources."...

In my experience all temperaments do preserve "harmonic resources", if that means "variety of levels of stimulation" and "variety of beat rate speed". The difference might be "where" we want variety to take place. The more you differentiate single keys, as you say by tuning thirds with different degrees of consonance, the more you mess up the meaning that chords may convey, being part of a structure. No matter which key, we can have control over the total number of chords and their "tension", and make sure that each chord is going to manifest its proper character. Within any key, both simple and complex chords will display their "expected tensions" in full respect of semantic hierarchies.

I like "variety of beat rate speed" too, I like when beats are justified by one proportional ratio and when "variety" is ordered in a logical, intelligible way. Whether the first ET model succeeded in helping harmonization I can not say, and why tuners could not put 12 root of two in practice is another story. In any case, giving credit to what you say, in Bach's days they had "color" in force of the WTs you mention. What were they looking for then, other than that? Why would anybody have moved away from that idyllic scenery?

..."A pure third causes one type of emotional reaction from listeners. A heavily tempered third causes something entirely different."...

No doubt about that, that "reaction" to a wolfish interval was exactly THE problem, perhaps that is why temperaments other than "meantone" were developed (?).

..."A passage in a sonata that is meant to heighten the musical tension is almost always using a more highly tempered key. A passage designed to calm things down does not move into a more tempered key, it moves or is found in the keys with less tempering. This is so basic, I wonder why I am even asked about it."...

You were not asked about that. You say..."almost always"...Please, can you propose steady concepts?

Me: I can enjoy both Bach's preludes in C and C#, but both keys have to sound "in tune". <<

You:..."And you are trying to say that a third that is 13.7 cents away from pure sounds "in tune" to you?? What the heck does a pure third sound like???"...

What does a pure third sound like, when we get to complex chords? And weren't you supporting "variety of beat rate speed"? Well, in my experience every third can beat proportionally and in a unique way, depending on its fundamental note. Thus, if we go for color, every pure third may represent a lost opportunity. BTW, there is one "idea" that is passed off as correct, but actually it is banally wrong: that ET thirds are all the same.

Me: >>And you should know that, in Bach's days - before any "color" claim could arise - theorists, composers and tuners had just one problem, a centuries-old problem. That problem was related to primes 2, 3 and 5, the numbers that within a 12-semitones span will define our octave, fifths and thirds. In those days "color" wasn't a problem at all. Actually, from your point of view, they had so much…color, many unequal temperaments that could not solve THE problem: How to make all keys and all intervals sound in tune? <<

You:..."There is no way to make all the keys sound alike, unless you detune all the thirds and fifths. So there is a conundrum for you. In order to make all of them sound "in tune", you must somehow come to accept a 13.7 cent third as "in tune". I no longer hear it that way."...

All the keys sound alike? Nop, I do not mean that. I mean euphonious, like when you play and you are not disturbed by an unexpected scream. It seems to me that you consider thirds on their own, being concerned about their cent value. I could not care less about cents and wanted to spread beating thirds proportionally and coherently, all along the keyboard.

Me: >>You say that ET tuning, in Bach's days, was not "normal". Please, would you be able to tell what is today's "normal" ET tuning? When 12 root of two was introduced, the approach to the scale went different: from a 12-semitones span, where you would temper intervals by fixing single intervals ratios, they developed the idea of a geometric set, a set of N notes that could be ordered in a geometric progression and that could lead to a sound-whole.<<

You:..."That sounds like gobbly-gook to me. Exactly what is a "sound-whole"? I have never heard anyone use the term before."...

Sorry, I did not find a translation for "gobbly-gook". Can you help me? Tomorrow I hope to be able to complete my reply.

Regards, a.c.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1776980 - 10/25/11 03:36 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi Ed,

This is where we were:

Me: >>You say that ET tuning, in Bach's days, was not "normal". Please, would you be able to tell what is today's "normal" ET tuning? When 12 root of two was introduced, the approach to the scale went different: from a 12-semitones span, where you would temper intervals by fixing single intervals ratios, they developed the idea of a geometric set, a set of N notes that could be ordered in a geometric progression and that could lead to a sound-whole.<<

You:..."That sounds like gobbly-gook to me. Exactly what is a "sound-whole"? I have never heard anyone use the term before."...

You are right. Briefly, I give fundamental relevance to the entire amount of notes, of intervals and chords ready to be arranged (in our case) on the keyboard. All intervals, inside and outside the temperament octave, can draw precise beat curves; we can weave all beat curves into a unique form, namely a sound whole.

In this view, the usual temperament octave (or section) is extended to 88 notes; intervals and beats altogether give rise to a sound structure that can be described as a unity. A better word would be gestalt, in that it conveys also the idea of synergy. I consider beats as the source of energy, if beat curves are ordered coherently. And for this to occur, all intervals (octaves included) must share one beat-ratio, the scale "difference" ratio of which you can read in Chas research report. "Beating whole" is synonymous.

Me: >>Today, it is not by copying 12 or 16 notes from the temperament section that a tuner can achieve the ET geometry. And if you realize that we were left with the "pure-octaves" axiom, if you think about the tuning of fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths, 15ths, if you acknowledge how these intervals are coped with, somehow artistically and/or mysteriously managed, how can you think in terms of "normal" ET tuning. Is it modern ETD's "variants" you are referring to? <<

You:..."No, I am referring to the equality. If all your like intervals are not tuned exactly alike, it is not an equal temperament. If they are all tempered alike, there is no difference in the sound of like thirds, (unless you believe there is some magic that causes different keys to have different emotional qualities."...

No, no magic but sensitivity. I do not think we need to theorize heavily tempered intervals anymore for the sake of contrast. Different keys do keep their different qualities on the basis of different levels of tension, established time after time by the fundamental tone and resonating within the entire sounding body. I admit, the word "equal" can be ambiguous. Perhaps we would not even mention the word equal, if only they had called the first ET model "progressive temperament", since it is a geometric progression. Or "common temperament", since each frequency value is found by multiplying the previous one by a fixed number called common ratio.

In 12 root of two ET, in order to find something "equal" we have to translate the scale values in cents, but does that mean that "like intervals are tuned exactly alike"? Is that how you understand ET? For me, that is not even simplistic but a distorted representation, since we (you included?) temper ET thirds (and not only thirds) so that their beat rate speed can be progressive. What is "alike" then, in your view?

You wrote: ..."When we consider Chopin's music, we can see how he often is using melodic fifths over a highly tempered background harmony. This is where the textural effect of WT's can be heard clearly, and interestingly enough, pianists playing Chopin on a temperament with 18 cent thirds seem to find it clearer."...

Me: >>How about 20 cent thirds? Wouldn't pianists find "textural effect" even clearer?<<

You:..."Yes, I have heard that said about Chopin's music when played on a Young temperament, which has a 21 cent third in it. The clarity arises from the contrast of the pure fifths against a tempered background."...

Perhaps you call "clarity" what I would call cacophony. At the end, you like pure thirds, you can explain 21 cent thirds, but you hate ET 13. something thirds because they sound alike. Mhhhh..?

You:..."I think removing the haze of tempering that hangs over the equal temperament allows the true harmonic colors to be displayed."...

Me: >>Here we are again onto the "color" conjecture, plus "harmonic", plus "true". I know that you refer "color" to your "pain and pleasure" experience, and how some keys should sound better than others.<<

..."Pardon me, but I haven't used the word "better", which is your subjective value judgement. Color is the same as tempering, and what you are calling pain and pleasure is a variety of stimulation. Trying to say that some keys sound better than others is naive. Beethoven's "Pathetique" sounds awful to some people when played in ET, or if it is transposed in a WT to an unoriginal key like C. It sounds deader than a doornail and boring as heck."...

See what you are saying, I'm sure you would be able to detect a transposition even in the very mildest WT, as I've explained above. Also in my opinion color (meaning outcome of overtones) is obtained with tempering, but once you get to complex chords and harmonization you realize how dramatically everything changes, and how it is naive (using your expression) moving the heaviest tempered intervals in remote keys.

Me: >> But doesn't "harmonic" (from harmonia, “joint, union, agreement, concord of sounds”) recall the USA motto "E pluribus unum", "Out of many, one"? And if "harmonic" refers to "one", if it refers to a "whole", which UT or WT, out of dozens, displays "true harmonic alternation of pain and pleasure"? <<

..."You are trying to use a very narrow definition to obviate a much larger concept. In ET, there is no agreement, since none of the partials of the thirds is in concord with one another. So, by your strict definition, there can be no harmony in ET. As far as which WT's go, they all share the same form, simply changing the amount of contrast. There is far less difference between them than there is between ET and any of them."...

I see, ET thirds are not in concord with one another, while WT's have variable amount of contrast. Perhaps you'll be able to deepen on this and on a larger "harmonic" concept.

You: ..."I equate ET with the pollution that covered the Sistene Chapel ceiling. The true colors of the artist..."...

Me: >>About ET, I understand your frustration. To me, it seems that you haven't grasped the theoretical goal, and most probably you have not been able to experience ET's effects in practice.<<

..."I am not frustrated by ET, I am repulsed by ET when used for music that was composed to take advantage of the resources I have already mentioned."...

Leave my own opinion aside, I can not understand your repulsion. You are talking about a very extreme feeling but…we hear what pianos sound like, when we are asked to tune them. And here in PW (but not only) we have seen how difficult it is to distinguish a WT from, say, a "variant of ET". You talk about "music that was composed to take advantage of the resources…", I would not be so sure. Some artists may be inspired by what is there, others are able to project entirely new dimensions and take mankind elsewhere.

..."And if you believe that I, after three decades of selling ET's to professional musicians, haven't "experienced ET's effects in practice", then I submit that you are delusional. My tuning of ET has passed the standards set by Bill Garlick, the PTG, and countless international artists, so I submit that I am as experienced with the concept as anyone."...

I apologize, I meant modern ET's.

Me: >> How do you tune fourths, fifths, octaves, 12ths and 15ths? How do you switch the acrobatic expansion of 12 semitones to the tuning of a sound whole?<<

You: ..."Once again, you are using a term you have not defined. expansion of the 12 semitones is stretching, which has nothing to do with equality."...

Now "sound whole" is defined (above). Expansion, in my ET tuning, is tempering. Perhaps now you can answer my question.

You: ...the piano world is gradually loosening its grip on the security of the familiar in favor of the challenge and beauty of the original."...

Me: >>What you describe might happen, the "familiar" being what we witness every day, UTs and WTs whether we like it or not. But this does not mean that we should give up; in my experience, we can achieve a coherent sound whole and restore Aristoxene's idea, let me say THE original idea of a perfect, harmonious temperament.<<

You:..."What is perfect about out of tune thirds? Unless you consider "in tune" to be what you are accustomed to? What I am describing is what I am observing in my practice. More and more pianists are becoming aware of how much more complex a WT is than and ET, and how boring ET in comparison.
Alfredo, are you a tuner? By that I mean, are you supporting yourself by tuning pianos, or are you debating this subject on the strength of theory? I am selling very expensive tunings to very discriminating professionals, and drawing my conclusions from their responses. I have yet to have an audience that favors ET when placed side by side with a WT, or even a mild Victorian style of UT. This includes classical, jazz, and pop musicians. I don't consider these to be "questionable" conclusions, but rather, conclusions that are supported by practice and money."

I would never question your success nor your commitment. Yes, I'm a piano tuner.

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1779128 - 10/28/11 10:21 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Jackson Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/17/09
Posts: 588
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Alfredo,

Wading in where I shouldn't, I must say that I still think that you and Ed just have different but equally valid goals. You want a new and better ET while Ed likes both the nearer consonance of the popular keys and the larger range of variation that comes from a WT. A WT may also be closer to what the composer heard and intended from the late 17th century to the early 20th century, although we can't, of course, always be sure what temperament Chopin, for one, heard while writing.

Can't we just say that a UT and Chas, and more conventional variations of ET, are valid and have their beauties?Speaking for myself, I hear Chas as wonderful, but I also love the sound of David P's well temperament and the Bremmer EBVT. We are not in a beauty contest in which there can be only winner.


Edited by Jake Jackson (10/28/11 10:56 PM)

Top
#1779224 - 10/29/11 03:51 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1237
Loc: Tennessee
Greetings,
Am out of town on a honeymoon but will return next week. First thing that will have to be done is definition of terms, since my definition of "equal" does not include a temperament in which like intervals are intentionally tuned to different sizes!
Regards,

Top
#1779941 - 10/30/11 02:27 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi,

Very nice posts, thank you.

Jake, I appreciate your intentions. You are right, this is not a beauty contest, though beauty (read harmoniousness, in objective terms) is very relevant in tuning, and so are tuning history and present sceneries. Ed and I are exchanging our views and checking each other's contents and means. Your comments, Jake, are always welcome.

Ed, I wish you a great time. I look forward to knowing your thoughts at your convenience.

To All, have a nice Halloween!

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

Top
#1780853 - 10/31/11 11:24 PM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Unequally tempered Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/11/11
Posts: 149
Loc: UK
Hi!

Please excuse me for the meat of this post should be in another topic kindly started by Jake . . . but the latest recordings at Hammerwood Park by Kazimierz Morski support clearly Ed Foote over Alfredo in this topic:

Rachmaninoff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajMy45C4HeY
Chopin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNFRTrO8XA4
Mozart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdnlQnzPx8U

For completeness perhaps these links should be duplicated on that thread. . .

(I had terrible problems tuning for this recital. Flies multiplied in their 10000 at the windows during the day providing a constant effective tinnitus both to the ears and to the computer running TuneLab97. I then battled between TuneLab with an inharmonicity curve applied and my ears particularly in the Tenor C octave and half the octave below, possibly on account of the IH curve wanting to rely on equal temperament. So in that region I tuned octaves by ear and then followed through other harmonics as appropriate to the note in the temperament. In the treble, however, I followed the TuneLab IH curve entirely.)

I have deliberately kept the Chopin recordings in one as the jump between keys in pieces contrasts mood well. The effect on the audience was extraordinary: the UT moved the audience much much more than any ET can - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgA1-I5MfNY is the demonstration of this. As just two movements it might sound merely academic but when the temperament provides a soundscape for a whole sonata rather than merely part, the effect is quite profound. The UT version in concert brought tears to my eyes whilst the ET performance left me cold in comparison - it was just another performance despite the excellence of the pianist.

In the latest recordings I'm aligning much more with Alfredo's ideas of harmonic accordance but applying it to the unequal temperament and I think the latest Morski recordings have that advantage over the Barabino and Miena Senada recordings for which I tuned in the past.

Incidentally, the temperament that I'm using is not my own but I'm not letting on what it is at this stage because Adolfo Barabino deserves first bite of the commercial recording cherry . . . It's a temperament on the Vallotti Kirnberger spectrum with a lot of perfect fifths and that's all I'm willing to disclose. If anyone hits on what it is I would ask them not to publish what it might be, please.)

I have been looking at the relation between temperament and harmonic accordances for a long time - readers here may or may not be familiar with my YouTube video on this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz0B0SwKpww which I hope may be useful in this discussion.

Best wishes

David P
_________________________
_______________________________
David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
- East Grinstead, Sussex, UK -
- http://www.organmatters.com -
_______________________________
Restoring life to music . . . and music to life . . . and a good deal more!

Top
#1780870 - 11/01/11 12:05 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: Unequally tempered]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1766
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Unequally tempered

I have deliberately kept the Chopin recordings in one as the jump between keys in pieces contrasts mood well. The effect on the audience was extraordinary: the UT moved the audience much much more than any ET can - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgA1-I5MfNY is the demonstration of this. As just two movements it might sound merely academic but when the temperament provides a soundscape for a whole sonata rather than merely part, the effect is quite profound. The UT version in concert brought tears to my eyes whilst the ET performance left me cold in comparison - it was just another performance despite the excellence of the pianist.


The UT sounds much warmer and evocative I agree. However I can't put the idea out of my head that he unconsciously played much more dead and mechanical in the ET tuning. His phrasing and dynamics seem to want to show ET is inferior.

As far as keeping your UT secret; just about any possible UT has been tried and passionately defended for many centuries, I can not believe you have found some magic bullet.

That being said I agree UT can make a big positive difference, but I think it is a refinement that should be tuned (pun intended) for the music at hand. For almost all 17th century music 1/4' meantone, for early 18th century music adapted meantone or strong UT's (1/4'), for Bach it's unclear as his music sounds great even on a neglected barroom piano, but the 1/6' schemes make a lot of sense.

Later on the 1/6' schemes avoiding Pythagorean thirds remain a viable option, but so does ET with the pianoforte replacing the harpsichord. The bad M3's are much less painful on the piano than on the harpsichord, as plucking excites the offending beating harmonics much stronger than striking with a hammer.

Kees

Top
#1780898 - 11/01/11 03:08 AM Re: HISTORICAL ET AND MODERN ETs [Re: alfredo capurso]
Jake Johnson Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/20/08
Posts: 84
David,

More recordings from the Hammerwood Park piano in your temperament? Thank you so much. I just listened to the Chopin. Lovely.

(But if there must be an argument over which temperament should win the pageant, I must note that we have no recordings of this same pianist playing these pieces on this piano tuned to Alfredo's CHas ET, however. To attempt a serious comparison, wouldn't Alfredo have to set your piano to CHas and ask Mr. Morski to play the same pieces? Yes, I want you to bring Alfredo to Hammerwood and record the results.)

Top
Page 9 of 13 < 1 2 ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Christmas Header
- > Gift Ideas for Music Lovers < -
From PianoSupplies.com a division of Piano World.
-------------------
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
It's Beethoven's birthday today...
by Polyphonist
3 minutes 36 seconds ago
Elbow pain
by acollins
Today at 12:49 PM
an interesting find . . .
by Michael Sayers
Today at 11:00 AM
Choosing a Beethoven sonata
by MusicDoc
Today at 10:48 AM
Synth/Keyboard beginner need help with equipment purchase
by Seraphmoon
Today at 10:40 AM
Forum Stats
77325 Members
42 Forums
159939 Topics
2348782 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission