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#1786675 - 11/10/11 08:20 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
Rostosky Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Thanks Starr Keys, it's my nervous reaction to every bad or stressfull situation, just laughing.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1787009 - 11/11/11 10:46 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3204
Loc: Maine
We've been suggesting writing out the music, and practicing counting. I'm wondering if there's a different way to learn to play the intermingled rhythms of the RH against the LH in a way that capitalizes more on rhythmic and ear skills, rather than challenging weaker counting and perhaps reading skills. Counting and reading are my own strengths, average on rhythm, and weak on ear, so this is not an area I have any intuitions about. Thoughts, anyone else?
_________________________
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#1787092 - 11/11/11 02:04 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: PianoStudent88]
Brian Lucas Online   content
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Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 995
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
We've been suggesting writing out the music, and practicing counting. I'm wondering if there's a different way to learn to play the intermingled rhythms of the RH against the LH in a way that capitalizes more on rhythmic and ear skills, rather than challenging weaker counting and perhaps reading skills. Counting and reading are my own strengths, average on rhythm, and weak on ear, so this is not an area I have any intuitions about. Thoughts, anyone else?

You're definitely on the right track with this. I try to teach students to feel rhythm, where notes are in time. Of course counting and knowing how long notes are is important, but you should also feel downbeats and upbeats and know that "this note falls on the upbeat of 3" for example. If you can feel music like this, counting is no longer necessary.

Think of it like walking in a steady beat, then clapping in between steps. You're not counting 1 and 2 and 3... but instead feeling the rhythm. Maybe that's why dancers seem to have an easier time with rhythms.
_________________________
-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 23+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
My Sight Reading eBook
My Music

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#1787099 - 11/11/11 02:14 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: Rostosky]
Starr Keys Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 1010
Loc: california
Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Thanks Starr Keys, it's my nervous reaction to every bad or stressfull situation, just laughing.


Beats the heck out of getting drunk and beating your wife and children! smile

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#1787104 - 11/11/11 02:20 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: Brian Lucas]
Starr Keys Offline
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Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 1010
Loc: california
Originally Posted By: Brian Lucas
you're definitely on the right track with this. I try to teach students to feel rhythm, where notes are in time. Of course counting and knowing how long notes are is important, but you should also feel downbeats and upbeats and know that "this note falls on the upbeat of 3" for example. If you can feel music like this, counting is no longer necessary.

Think of it like walking in a steady beat, then clapping in between steps. You're not counting 1 and 2 and 3... but instead feeling the rhythm. Maybe that's why dancers seem to have an easier time with rhythms.


The walking and clapping is how I learned to do rhythm at PM. Also I find tapping out the rhythm at or away from the piano can be helpful for getting it into the body. smile


Edited by Starr Keys (11/11/11 02:20 PM)

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#1787134 - 11/11/11 03:31 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3204
Loc: Maine
For wayne32yrs, one possibly more organic way of getting the LH rhythm stable when the RH is added, is to think that the LH is playing "LONG short LONG short short short". Having that consciously in mind and feel might help the LH to maintain the pattern. (I don't know for sure though, I'm just trying to come up with ideas here.)

If you record the RH and play it back, can you play the LH in rhythm with it?

Sorry about confusing you with eighths/quarters/halfs earlier; I didn't spot that you were in the UK and that I should be translating into quavers/crotchets/minims.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (11/11/11 03:31 PM)
_________________________
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#1787177 - 11/11/11 04:56 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: PianoStudent88]
Brian Lucas Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 995
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
If you record the RH and play it back, can you play the LH in rhythm with it?

Oooo, I really like that idea. It allows you to focus on playing one hand at a time, but also hear how the 2 hands sound together. Nice!
_________________________
-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 23+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
My Sight Reading eBook
My Music

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#1787182 - 11/11/11 04:59 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: PianoStudent88]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
PianoS88 and Brian, I don't normally struggle with Rythym, it's just this case in particular, I would say that rythym is normally one of my stregnths.

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

If you record the RH and play it back, can you play the LH in rhythm with it?



yes, no probs smile

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#1787191 - 11/11/11 05:12 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
Brian Lucas Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 995
Sorry wayne, we got a little OT.

Probably just a mental glitch. We all have one of those songs (hopefully not more than a few). For me one is Stevie's Superstitious. I can play it fine, bass line with chords, but when I try to sing it, forget it. I've practiced it billions of times and still can't lock into it. I would consider rhythms one of my strengths, but there's something about those patterns my brain can't wrap around.
_________________________
-Brian
BM in Performance, Berklee College of Music, 23+ year teacher and touring musician
My Downloadable Video Piano Lessons
My Sight Reading eBook
My Music

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#1787220 - 11/11/11 06:01 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
Same here with this one, anyways, not had much time 2day, had stuff on, will get bk on this soon, thnx everyone for your help and input, appreciated smile

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#1787335 - 11/11/11 10:05 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
Rostosky Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 3339
Loc: Lost in cyberspace.in the UK.
Hya Wayne, just thought i would try and do a "mash up" summary of what has been suggested:

"when trying to work one out by lady gaga, you tap on wood or lapwood ,long, short, long ,short short"

A video tutorial on your youtube channel may well produce some excellent comments?
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1787439 - 11/12/11 06:17 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
Would that be allowed on YT Rossy?

Queen v's Lady G night on xfactor tonight, might get some inspiration wink

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#1788595 - 11/14/11 07:04 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
Well, I've kept trying, but still no luck. I'm gonna keep giving it a go, but decided to just alter the rythym to something I'm comfortable with frown , so I can continue with the impro, rather than just being stuck and getting nowhere.

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#1788616 - 11/14/11 07:47 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Online   content
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1505
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: wayne32yrs
Well, I've kept trying, but still no luck. I'm gonna keep giving it a go, but decided to just alter the rythym to something I'm comfortable with frown , so I can continue with the impro, rather than just being stuck and getting nowhere.


Were you able to play the 2 bars I sketched out so that the 2 hands were properly coordinated?

I suppose what I'm really asking is, at what level are you able to read music? Or do you avoid reading, prefering to play by ear (no shame in that btw!).



Edited by dire tonic (11/14/11 07:56 AM)

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#1788631 - 11/14/11 08:14 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
To be honest, I haven't tried, (had so little time this last week) but I will print it now and give it a try smile I've just kept trying by ear hoping it would just "click" and I'd get it.

Avoiding this difficuilt rythym, I just came up with this so far (by no means finished, I'm gonna keep working on it and adding to it)

I play most stuff by ear, and use sheet music as a guide, but rarely play stuff purely from the sheet. (the odd ones I have, but it's a much slower process)



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#1788636 - 11/14/11 08:26 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1505
Loc: uk south
Aha! That explains it!

Yes, well although you've got some variation in the LH on this new video, essentially you're playing 8s throughout so you can do that pretty much without thinking and obviously that frees you up to do more or less what you want with the RH.

So, I suppose it comes down to how determined you are to realise your original plan.

I'd be very surprised if, after a couple of runs through, you can't play the 2 bars I sketched out. Playing the remainder of your 16 bar idea will need some application but it's down to you. If you're having trouble writing the transcription, let me know and I'll suggest a way forward.

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#1788641 - 11/14/11 08:34 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
Ok here goes, I'm probabily gonna become a laughing stock on PW pmsl, I printed it out and gave it a try!


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#1788642 - 11/14/11 08:35 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
Yes I would like to be able to do it, I must admit, I'm getting a little bored of playing the same bass patterns!

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#1788650 - 11/14/11 08:51 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1505
Loc: uk south
Wayne, it's clear from your earlier efforts that you've got good timekeeping so I'm certain you can do this.

What I see in this last video is that you are consistently mis-locating the 2nd A in the LH (the A that comes after the tie). You play this fine when you play the LH solo but hands together and you seem to want to put that A smack on beat 4 whereas it in fact should be played a half beat (quaver) earlier if you see what I mean.

Try playing it dead slow and count 1,2 ..through 8 for each bar while you play it. That A in question should land on '6'.

Does that help? If so, I can repost the written clip with the numbers above (unless you can do it yourself).

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#1788651 - 11/14/11 08:55 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
if you wouldn't mind, that would be great smile

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#1788660 - 11/14/11 09:15 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1505
Loc: uk south
of course now you've got to coordinate 3 things, the LH, the RH and counting out loud!

I don't know if that's a tall order. If so, get someone else to do the counting for you.

Do it dead slow to start with


scan not so good so probably best to ink in the numbers (also missing tie on LH bar 2)


Edited by dire tonic (11/14/11 09:17 AM)

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#1788684 - 11/14/11 09:53 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
Thnx, I'll write them on the print out I got, got a few jobs to do, so will be back on it later, thnx again smile

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#1788741 - 11/14/11 12:02 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
I've had a go HT and thats really helped, I used the metronome on the keyboard, just gonna work on getting up to speed smile

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#1790649 - 11/17/11 01:18 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
Had a bit of time today, so gave it a serious go and i'm up to 120 now. It's a bit weird for me 'cos I have to count and not take my eyes off the phrase. (I'm used to looking at a score, then putting it down and just having a go, and have NEVER had to count) I can now understand why people who only read music find it difficuilt to play by ear, it's just so different!

I'm splitting this project into 2, I'm continuing composing a version by ear, but now using only Dm and C# dim. (loving the sound of these two chords)

And then would love to continue by using the score, if I can get a certain person to help lol smile - Dire tonic, if you get some free time, anychance you could write the rest of the music for me (the same bass continous and using the melody I play in the video above on the keyboard)

No worries if not, I know it's alot to ask!

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#1791865 - 11/19/11 08:01 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1505
Loc: uk south
Hey Wayne, that's great, a result! As to the rest, I'm happy to help but I'd prefer to get you doing this for yourself....you know the saying "give a man a fish...".

As you know, the LH is already done, you only need to fill in the next 14 bars with the existing pattern, changing the pitches where neccessary. So it's just the RH to do. Have a go at bars 3 and 4. You need to go through the reverse process. You might devise a better method for yourself but here's a suggestion...

Record the RH pattern again with an audible metronome or, better still, with your LH prerecorded as per your second video but do it DEAD SLOW, at the sort of tempo you were practising bars 1 and 2.

Play the result back and count 1 through 8 for each quaver of bar 3 and note which numbers the notes land on. Do it for bar 4 as well (there's only one fresh note played in that bar anyway).

That should enable you to write out the rhythm. If you get stuck, at least say which numbers you think the notes land on and we can take it from there. No need to post up an image you could just say what time value you've written for each pitch.

good luck!!

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#1792087 - 11/19/11 03:13 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
thnx dire tonic

I've had a go.............


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#1792091 - 11/19/11 03:16 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
PS, made a slight alteration to bar 2 also smile

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#1792132 - 11/19/11 03:48 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1505
Loc: uk south
- it's ok in so far as it will work for you, i.e. you've lined up the timings of the RH and LH notes and that's enough for you to practice with till you've committed it to memory - that's great!

However, I think it would be worth your while, just for the sake of rigour and to practice reading/writing rhythm to put the correct time values on the notes.

Bar 2 - you've written a minim (2 beats) + 4 crotchets making 6 beats in all. The way to resolve that is to put a bar across the last four notes to show that they're all quavers - exactly like the corresponding notes in the LH.

Also, you've tied the first 2 A's in that bar which, as a pair of quavers you could have written as a single crotchet (but that's a slightly different phrasing from your original).

Bar 3 - you're showing 6 beats in that bar also. Resolve that by joining the first 2 crotchets with a bar across making them quavers. The G minim should be 1 and a half beats long so write that as a crotchet with a dot after it. The last G in that bar should be a quaver.

Bar 4 - first 2 notes should be quavers (join them with a bar) and the F minim should last 3 beats (put a dot after it) or instead put a crotchet rest at the end of the bar.

I think you could finish the whole piece now, even if you don't observe the correct note values, at least placing the notes' time values proportionally on the stave, as you've done above, will get you through your main task of coordinating the LH and RH to a finished performance.

Good work, but I urge you to check out some basic rudiments of rhythm so that you can observe and write the correct note values. I'm sure there must be a good online resource for that (don't know if anyone can recommend anything?)

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#1792165 - 11/19/11 04:40 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
Thanx.... is this correct?


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#1792166 - 11/19/11 04:40 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1872
Loc: Sheffield UK
I'll do some reading up on this 2moz, cheers smile


Edited by wayne32yrs (11/19/11 04:41 PM)

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