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#1785892 - 11/09/11 01:34 PM Rythmic problems!
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
Just thought I'd have a go at a Diana Ross Remix I like, to find I'm having great problems keeping rythym with my left hand. As soon as I attempt to play with my right hand, the rythym just goes completely. Here's what I'm trying to do.

This is the rythym with the left.


This is what I want to play, (I've had to record the bass seperately to demonstrate)


Any explanations to why this happens?
Any tips?
Or is it a case of just keep trying?

Cheers Guys & Gals

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#1785906 - 11/09/11 02:06 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
spanishbuddha Offline
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Have you tried synching on the first note in a bar? I don't know the piece but maybe use the LH as the timing and synch the RH as appropriate.

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#1785916 - 11/09/11 02:30 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Loc: Sheffield UK
I'm finding this hard to explain, but as soon as I start to play the melody with my right hand, my left automatically starts playing

1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4

instead of

1(for 2beats) 2 (for 2beats), 1 2 3 4, 1(for 2beats) 2(for 2beats), 1 2 3 4

I hope that makes sense

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#1785937 - 11/09/11 03:22 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
JimF Offline
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Figure out how to correctly count it out loud, then play the first phrase or first few measures, while counting out loud, at about 20% of the tempo in the video. If doing this HT proves too much, then do it HS first. Only start to speed it up once you can do it slowly without error 5 times HT. Walk before you run.
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#1785940 - 11/09/11 03:27 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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sorry for my ignorance, but what do the HT and HS abbreviations stand for?

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#1785955 - 11/09/11 03:54 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
Starr Keys Offline
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Hands together and Hands separately. smile
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#1785958 - 11/09/11 03:57 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Ok, maybe I have got the rythym wrong, and maybe it's 123, 123, 123, 123.

I haven't got a score for this as it's by ear!


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#1785959 - 11/09/11 04:01 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: Starr Keys]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Originally Posted By: Starr Keys
Hands together and Hands separately. smile


lol, thnx smile

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#1785960 - 11/09/11 04:03 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
Starr Keys Offline
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Wayne, you might also try this twist on Hands Separately. It sometimes works for me. Try tapping out the left hand rhythm instead of playing. Use the wood on the piano or your lap--wood is better. Then try tapping and singing the melody. Finally, try tapping while playing the melody. Then play hands together.



Edited by Starr Keys (11/09/11 04:04 PM)
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#1785972 - 11/09/11 04:32 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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pmsl, I'm even finding that difficult, but great idea, thnx smile

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#1785981 - 11/09/11 04:47 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
TheodorN Offline
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wayne32yrs, I think you mentioned sometime you had the Piano for all package, but correct me if I'm wrong. The reason I ask is that Robin says there are some rhytmic patterns common to most pop/rock music, and that you have to learn those rhytms long before you learn all the fancy right hand licks. You have to be able to play them in your sleep, as he puts it.

Just my two cents, as you call it. But tell me, what song is this, because I'm quite familiar with the nostalgic disco tunes of that great woman singer, Diana Ross? Would like to learn at least some of them in the future.
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#1785987 - 11/09/11 05:07 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Errr no, I haven't got piano for all!

The song is a remix version of "love hangover", I was using this remix as an inspiration for a piano solo.

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#1785989 - 11/09/11 05:11 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Here's the remix.......


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#1786006 - 11/09/11 05:34 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Would you be able to write out the separate parts for yourself as a normal combined 2 stave piano part? If you can do this and carefully line up the beats between the two parts I think seeing the spatial connection between the two parts could be a useful guide. You'd know then where the LH and RH coincide and where certain notes come 'in between' others.

You'd have to play it slowly to begin with..

- just a thought..

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#1786014 - 11/09/11 05:50 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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I think I could manage that, will give it a go, thank you smile

I'm planning on playing it in D minor, chords Dm, Gm, Bb/C then transitioning to Dm, (C#,E,G) (I don't know this chord lol, is it c# diminished)(this is the bit I'm stuggling with the rythym) Hope I'm making sense smile

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#1786019 - 11/09/11 06:00 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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- yes that's c#dim.

Hope to see the final vid when you've mastered it!

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#1786025 - 11/09/11 06:04 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Cheers, if I do lol smile

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#1786027 - 11/09/11 06:07 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
TheodorN Offline
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Just opened the video of the remix, and got this related video up. Can't resist this soulful song, everytime it gets me, that golden oldie.

Julie London - Cry Me A River

Does anybody know of a good soul disc with this song, and maybe others like it, Everytime You Say Goodbye with Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and such artists?

PS Hope this is not considered a thread hijacking!
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#1786110 - 11/09/11 09:29 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Originally Posted By: wayne32yrs
I'm finding this hard to explain, but as soon as I start to play the melody with my right hand, my left automatically starts playing

1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4, 1 2 3 4

instead of

1(for 2beats) 2 (for 2beats), 1 2 3 4, 1(for 2beats) 2(for 2beats), 1 2 3 4

I hope that makes sense

Wayne, the rhythm you're playing with your left hand is, in your language, 1 (for 2 beats), 2 (for 1 beat), 3 (for 2 beats), 4, 5, 6.

It is syncopated. Counted in a more standard way, it is 1-2, 3, 4-5, 6, 7, 8. That's if you hear the fast notes as a beat, where the hyphenated numbers mean one longer note. I hear the fast notes as eighth notes, so would count this as a single 4/4 measure: ONE and TWO AND three AND FOUR AND. The all-cap words are where you are playing; the lower case words are where you are holding.
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#1786112 - 11/09/11 09:33 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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If you're writing the music out, it's quarter, eighth, quarter, eighth, eighth, eighth. Or half, quarter, half, quarter, quarter, quarter, but writing it with the shorter note values makes more sense to me given the feel of the music.
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#1786147 - 11/09/11 11:22 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: Starr Keys]
Rostosky Offline
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Registered: 04/30/11
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Originally Posted By: Starr Keys
Try tapping out the left hand rhythm instead of playing. Use the wood on the piano or your lap--wood is better.



I seriously hope you didnt want wayne to tap on his "lap--wood" whilst struggling with this piece?
LOL.
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#1786480 - 11/10/11 02:18 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: TheodorN]
JimF Offline
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Loc: south florida
pianothead,

I've got three recordings of Cry Me a River.

Brad Mehldau - Art of The Trio Vol 5
Jaimee Paul - At Last
Joe Cocker - Live, Vol 1

The first is jazz piano, second is jazz vocal, and third is Cocker's classic rock cover. I like em all and think Meldau's is the most soulful.

Sorry for the Hijack Wayne32. Any more on this and we should take it to a different thread.
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#1786487 - 11/10/11 02:24 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: Rostosky]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
Originally Posted By: Pianotehead
Just opened the video of the remix, and got this related video up. Can't resist this soulful song, everytime it gets me, that golden oldie.

Julie London - Cry Me A River

Does anybody know of a good soul disc with this song, and maybe others like it, Everytime You Say Goodbye with Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong and such artists?

PS Hope this is not considered a thread hijacking!


Like the Julie London - Cry me a river smile

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
If you're writing the music out, it's quarter, eighth, quarter, eighth, eighth, eighth. Or half, quarter, half, quarter, quarter, quarter, but writing it with the shorter note values makes more sense to me given the feel of the music.


That's me totally bamboozled!

Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Originally Posted By: Starr Keys
Try tapping out the left hand rhythm instead of playing. Use the wood on the piano or your lap--wood is better.



I seriously hope you didnt want wayne to tap on his "lap--wood" whilst struggling with this piece?
LOL.



this would be slightly distracting Rossy!

JimF, no probs, honest smile

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#1786489 - 11/10/11 02:26 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
It's took me half hour just to do this bit, don't know if it's correct or not.


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#1786504 - 11/10/11 02:47 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
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Loc: Sheffield UK
Just had a go at playing it, and, nope it's wrong, gees, things seem easy till you go and actually try it!

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#1786543 - 11/10/11 03:48 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1049
Loc: uk south
Wayne, it should look something like this:-



- I've only done the first 2 bars as a guide so you can have a crack at the remainder..

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#1786564 - 11/10/11 04:26 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
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Loc: Sheffield UK
thanx so much dire tonic for your help smile

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#1786578 - 11/10/11 04:41 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
TheodorN Offline
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wayne32yrs, do you count the beats out loud? I think that helps, though it may be difficult in this case, since the rhytmic patterns are so different in the bass and the clef, respectively? We've got two hands, but only one mouth!

Still, you can count out hands seperately and that maybe prepares you better for putting the hands together.
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#1786607 - 11/10/11 05:36 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Loc: uk south
- you're welcome, only another 14 bars to go! Well, at least the LH will be easy since the rhythm doesn't change.

Don't forget, you're writing in 4/4 so that can be any combination, in any order, of notes and/or rests amounting to a total of 4 crotchets (= 8 quavers) in the bar. Anything other than that and the bar can't make musical sense.

If you get stuck I can offer another tip but in the meantime give it your best shot!


Edited by dire tonic (11/10/11 05:45 PM)

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#1786608 - 11/10/11 05:46 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: Rostosky]
Starr Keys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Originally Posted By: Starr Keys
Try tapping out the left hand rhythm instead of playing. Use the wood on the piano or your lap--wood is better.


I seriously hope you didnt want wayne to tap on his "lap--wood" whilst struggling with this piece? LOL.


No, that's one way to improve one's rhythm I hadn't thought of. Glad to see you haven't lost your sense of humor, Rossy. You must be feeling better. smile


Edited by Starr Keys (11/10/11 05:49 PM)
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#1786675 - 11/10/11 08:20 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
Rostosky Offline
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Thanks Starr Keys, it's my nervous reaction to every bad or stressfull situation, just laughing.
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1787009 - 11/11/11 10:46 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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We've been suggesting writing out the music, and practicing counting. I'm wondering if there's a different way to learn to play the intermingled rhythms of the RH against the LH in a way that capitalizes more on rhythmic and ear skills, rather than challenging weaker counting and perhaps reading skills. Counting and reading are my own strengths, average on rhythm, and weak on ear, so this is not an area I have any intuitions about. Thoughts, anyone else?
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#1787092 - 11/11/11 02:04 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: PianoStudent88]
Brian Lucas Offline
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Registered: 09/04/11
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
We've been suggesting writing out the music, and practicing counting. I'm wondering if there's a different way to learn to play the intermingled rhythms of the RH against the LH in a way that capitalizes more on rhythmic and ear skills, rather than challenging weaker counting and perhaps reading skills. Counting and reading are my own strengths, average on rhythm, and weak on ear, so this is not an area I have any intuitions about. Thoughts, anyone else?

You're definitely on the right track with this. I try to teach students to feel rhythm, where notes are in time. Of course counting and knowing how long notes are is important, but you should also feel downbeats and upbeats and know that "this note falls on the upbeat of 3" for example. If you can feel music like this, counting is no longer necessary.

Think of it like walking in a steady beat, then clapping in between steps. You're not counting 1 and 2 and 3... but instead feeling the rhythm. Maybe that's why dancers seem to have an easier time with rhythms.
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#1787099 - 11/11/11 02:14 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: Rostosky]
Starr Keys Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rostosky
Thanks Starr Keys, it's my nervous reaction to every bad or stressfull situation, just laughing.


Beats the heck out of getting drunk and beating your wife and children! smile
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#1787104 - 11/11/11 02:20 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: Brian Lucas]
Starr Keys Offline
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Loc: california
Originally Posted By: Brian Lucas
you're definitely on the right track with this. I try to teach students to feel rhythm, where notes are in time. Of course counting and knowing how long notes are is important, but you should also feel downbeats and upbeats and know that "this note falls on the upbeat of 3" for example. If you can feel music like this, counting is no longer necessary.

Think of it like walking in a steady beat, then clapping in between steps. You're not counting 1 and 2 and 3... but instead feeling the rhythm. Maybe that's why dancers seem to have an easier time with rhythms.


The walking and clapping is how I learned to do rhythm at PM. Also I find tapping out the rhythm at or away from the piano can be helpful for getting it into the body. smile


Edited by Starr Keys (11/11/11 02:20 PM)
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#1787134 - 11/11/11 03:31 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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For wayne32yrs, one possibly more organic way of getting the LH rhythm stable when the RH is added, is to think that the LH is playing "LONG short LONG short short short". Having that consciously in mind and feel might help the LH to maintain the pattern. (I don't know for sure though, I'm just trying to come up with ideas here.)

If you record the RH and play it back, can you play the LH in rhythm with it?

Sorry about confusing you with eighths/quarters/halfs earlier; I didn't spot that you were in the UK and that I should be translating into quavers/crotchets/minims.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (11/11/11 03:31 PM)
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#1787177 - 11/11/11 04:56 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: PianoStudent88]
Brian Lucas Offline
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Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88
If you record the RH and play it back, can you play the LH in rhythm with it?

Oooo, I really like that idea. It allows you to focus on playing one hand at a time, but also hear how the 2 hands sound together. Nice!
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#1787182 - 11/11/11 04:59 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: PianoStudent88]
wayne33yrs Offline
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PianoS88 and Brian, I don't normally struggle with Rythym, it's just this case in particular, I would say that rythym is normally one of my stregnths.

Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

If you record the RH and play it back, can you play the LH in rhythm with it?



yes, no probs smile

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#1787191 - 11/11/11 05:12 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
Brian Lucas Offline
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Sorry wayne, we got a little OT.

Probably just a mental glitch. We all have one of those songs (hopefully not more than a few). For me one is Stevie's Superstitious. I can play it fine, bass line with chords, but when I try to sing it, forget it. I've practiced it billions of times and still can't lock into it. I would consider rhythms one of my strengths, but there's something about those patterns my brain can't wrap around.
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#1787220 - 11/11/11 06:01 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Loc: Sheffield UK
Same here with this one, anyways, not had much time 2day, had stuff on, will get bk on this soon, thnx everyone for your help and input, appreciated smile

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#1787335 - 11/11/11 10:05 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
Rostosky Offline
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Hya Wayne, just thought i would try and do a "mash up" summary of what has been suggested:

"when trying to work one out by lady gaga, you tap on wood or lapwood ,long, short, long ,short short"

A video tutorial on your youtube channel may well produce some excellent comments?
_________________________


Rise like lions after slumber,in unvanquishable number. Shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep has fallen on you. Ye are many,they are few. Shelley

Founder and creator ofRostoskys 13th crystal skull project

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#1787439 - 11/12/11 06:17 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Loc: Sheffield UK
Would that be allowed on YT Rossy?

Queen v's Lady G night on xfactor tonight, might get some inspiration wink

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#1788595 - 11/14/11 07:04 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
Well, I've kept trying, but still no luck. I'm gonna keep giving it a go, but decided to just alter the rythym to something I'm comfortable with frown , so I can continue with the impro, rather than just being stuck and getting nowhere.

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#1788616 - 11/14/11 07:47 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Originally Posted By: wayne32yrs
Well, I've kept trying, but still no luck. I'm gonna keep giving it a go, but decided to just alter the rythym to something I'm comfortable with frown , so I can continue with the impro, rather than just being stuck and getting nowhere.


Were you able to play the 2 bars I sketched out so that the 2 hands were properly coordinated?

I suppose what I'm really asking is, at what level are you able to read music? Or do you avoid reading, prefering to play by ear (no shame in that btw!).



Edited by dire tonic (11/14/11 07:56 AM)

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#1788631 - 11/14/11 08:14 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
To be honest, I haven't tried, (had so little time this last week) but I will print it now and give it a try smile I've just kept trying by ear hoping it would just "click" and I'd get it.

Avoiding this difficuilt rythym, I just came up with this so far (by no means finished, I'm gonna keep working on it and adding to it)

I play most stuff by ear, and use sheet music as a guide, but rarely play stuff purely from the sheet. (the odd ones I have, but it's a much slower process)



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#1788636 - 11/14/11 08:26 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Posts: 1049
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Aha! That explains it!

Yes, well although you've got some variation in the LH on this new video, essentially you're playing 8s throughout so you can do that pretty much without thinking and obviously that frees you up to do more or less what you want with the RH.

So, I suppose it comes down to how determined you are to realise your original plan.

I'd be very surprised if, after a couple of runs through, you can't play the 2 bars I sketched out. Playing the remainder of your 16 bar idea will need some application but it's down to you. If you're having trouble writing the transcription, let me know and I'll suggest a way forward.

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#1788641 - 11/14/11 08:34 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
Ok here goes, I'm probabily gonna become a laughing stock on PW pmsl, I printed it out and gave it a try!


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#1788642 - 11/14/11 08:35 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Yes I would like to be able to do it, I must admit, I'm getting a little bored of playing the same bass patterns!

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#1788650 - 11/14/11 08:51 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Wayne, it's clear from your earlier efforts that you've got good timekeeping so I'm certain you can do this.

What I see in this last video is that you are consistently mis-locating the 2nd A in the LH (the A that comes after the tie). You play this fine when you play the LH solo but hands together and you seem to want to put that A smack on beat 4 whereas it in fact should be played a half beat (quaver) earlier if you see what I mean.

Try playing it dead slow and count 1,2 ..through 8 for each bar while you play it. That A in question should land on '6'.

Does that help? If so, I can repost the written clip with the numbers above (unless you can do it yourself).

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#1788651 - 11/14/11 08:55 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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if you wouldn't mind, that would be great smile

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#1788660 - 11/14/11 09:15 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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of course now you've got to coordinate 3 things, the LH, the RH and counting out loud!

I don't know if that's a tall order. If so, get someone else to do the counting for you.

Do it dead slow to start with


scan not so good so probably best to ink in the numbers (also missing tie on LH bar 2)


Edited by dire tonic (11/14/11 09:17 AM)

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#1788684 - 11/14/11 09:53 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Thnx, I'll write them on the print out I got, got a few jobs to do, so will be back on it later, thnx again smile

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#1788741 - 11/14/11 12:02 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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I've had a go HT and thats really helped, I used the metronome on the keyboard, just gonna work on getting up to speed smile

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#1790649 - 11/17/11 01:18 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Had a bit of time today, so gave it a serious go and i'm up to 120 now. It's a bit weird for me 'cos I have to count and not take my eyes off the phrase. (I'm used to looking at a score, then putting it down and just having a go, and have NEVER had to count) I can now understand why people who only read music find it difficuilt to play by ear, it's just so different!

I'm splitting this project into 2, I'm continuing composing a version by ear, but now using only Dm and C# dim. (loving the sound of these two chords)

And then would love to continue by using the score, if I can get a certain person to help lol smile - Dire tonic, if you get some free time, anychance you could write the rest of the music for me (the same bass continous and using the melody I play in the video above on the keyboard)

No worries if not, I know it's alot to ask!

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#1791865 - 11/19/11 08:01 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Posts: 1049
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Hey Wayne, that's great, a result! As to the rest, I'm happy to help but I'd prefer to get you doing this for yourself....you know the saying "give a man a fish...".

As you know, the LH is already done, you only need to fill in the next 14 bars with the existing pattern, changing the pitches where neccessary. So it's just the RH to do. Have a go at bars 3 and 4. You need to go through the reverse process. You might devise a better method for yourself but here's a suggestion...

Record the RH pattern again with an audible metronome or, better still, with your LH prerecorded as per your second video but do it DEAD SLOW, at the sort of tempo you were practising bars 1 and 2.

Play the result back and count 1 through 8 for each quaver of bar 3 and note which numbers the notes land on. Do it for bar 4 as well (there's only one fresh note played in that bar anyway).

That should enable you to write out the rhythm. If you get stuck, at least say which numbers you think the notes land on and we can take it from there. No need to post up an image you could just say what time value you've written for each pitch.

good luck!!

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#1792087 - 11/19/11 03:13 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
thnx dire tonic

I've had a go.............


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#1792091 - 11/19/11 03:16 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Loc: Sheffield UK
PS, made a slight alteration to bar 2 also smile

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#1792132 - 11/19/11 03:48 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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- it's ok in so far as it will work for you, i.e. you've lined up the timings of the RH and LH notes and that's enough for you to practice with till you've committed it to memory - that's great!

However, I think it would be worth your while, just for the sake of rigour and to practice reading/writing rhythm to put the correct time values on the notes.

Bar 2 - you've written a minim (2 beats) + 4 crotchets making 6 beats in all. The way to resolve that is to put a bar across the last four notes to show that they're all quavers - exactly like the corresponding notes in the LH.

Also, you've tied the first 2 A's in that bar which, as a pair of quavers you could have written as a single crotchet (but that's a slightly different phrasing from your original).

Bar 3 - you're showing 6 beats in that bar also. Resolve that by joining the first 2 crotchets with a bar across making them quavers. The G minim should be 1 and a half beats long so write that as a crotchet with a dot after it. The last G in that bar should be a quaver.

Bar 4 - first 2 notes should be quavers (join them with a bar) and the F minim should last 3 beats (put a dot after it) or instead put a crotchet rest at the end of the bar.

I think you could finish the whole piece now, even if you don't observe the correct note values, at least placing the notes' time values proportionally on the stave, as you've done above, will get you through your main task of coordinating the LH and RH to a finished performance.

Good work, but I urge you to check out some basic rudiments of rhythm so that you can observe and write the correct note values. I'm sure there must be a good online resource for that (don't know if anyone can recommend anything?)

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#1792165 - 11/19/11 04:40 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
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Loc: Sheffield UK
Thanx.... is this correct?


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#1792166 - 11/19/11 04:40 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
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Loc: Sheffield UK
I'll do some reading up on this 2moz, cheers smile


Edited by wayne32yrs (11/19/11 04:41 PM)

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#1792172 - 11/19/11 04:45 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2978
Loc: Maine
wayne32yrs, a tip for getting the quavers, crotchets, and minims assigned, after you have the skeleton as you're showing it: counting in 8 as here, a one-count note is a quaver. To be a crotchet, the note needs two counts. Minims need four counts.

There are some extra fine points such as a written minim normally starts on count 1 or 4; otherwise you would show it with some combination of tied quavers, crotchets, or dotted crotchets. Similarly for crotchets and odd counts -- which is why the bass shows tied quavers instead of a crotchet as the third note. But just getting all the one-count notes as quavers will be a start.

(The above is tailored for counting in 8: 1 count per quaver. If you were counting in 4 -- 1 count per crotchet -- the numbers would be different but the end result in written music would be the same.)

As dire tonic says, you can play from the skeleton. Assigning the quavers etc. correctly may help you in your reading in general by building a consistent map of appearance and rhythm that agrees with other music you may read.

I'm impressed by your ear: I could work out the rhythms, but would have a really hard time working out the pitches of this by ear.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (11/19/11 04:49 PM)
_________________________
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#1792192 - 11/19/11 05:05 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
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Loc: Sheffield UK
Thnx PS88, the quaver, crotchet, minim thing is what I need to read up on, you've helped though, cheers, what do you mean when you say....

"I could work out the rhythms, but would have a really hard time working out the pitches of this by ear"

Pitches, you mean the notes?

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#1792200 - 11/19/11 05:13 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1049
Loc: uk south
Yes, that's better but still a couple of further corrections viz:-



- note the double tie in bar 3.

There are often alternatives, forex, at the beginning of bar 3 that could have been G quaver (tied as is, from the previous bar) G dotted crotchet tied to the first G in the second half of the bar (as is).

Also, I'm not sure if you've decided to change the phrasing at the end of bar 2, but if you want it as the original then just use the notation from the earlier posting.


Edited by dire tonic (11/19/11 05:22 PM)

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#1792209 - 11/19/11 05:35 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
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Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 2978
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: wayne32yrs
Thnx PS88, the quaver, crotchet, minim thing is what I need to read up on, you've helped though, cheers, what do you mean when you say....

Be aware that most things you read will assign one count (beat) per crotchet. A quaver will be said to take half a beat. Your music here would be labelled "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" instead of "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8".

Quote:
"I could work out the rhythms, but would have a really hard time working out the pitches of this by ear"

Pitches, you mean the notes?
Yes, as in C, D, E, etc. I used "pitches" to try to distinguish from the written notes on the page, which encode both pitch and rythmic information.

dire tonic, when you say the use of tied quavers versus single crotchet on beat 3 of bar 2 changes the phrasing, how does that work? To me they're exactly the same thing. Can you say more?


Edited by PianoStudent88 (11/19/11 05:36 PM)
_________________________
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#1792217 - 11/19/11 05:45 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: PianoStudent88]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1049
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

dire tonic, when you say the use of tied quavers versus single crotchet on beat 3 of bar 2 changes the phrasing, how does that work? To me they're exactly the same thing. Can you say more?


- sorry, got a bit ambiguous there. Yes, as you say 2 tied quavers = a crotchet.

I was referring to Wayne's very first RH video where the phrasing was <quaver, crotchet, quaver> instead of his later version <crotchet, quaver, quaver>

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#1792219 - 11/19/11 05:49 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
dire-tonic, when I was trying to write bar 3 and 4, I started from the begining, counting, and noticed that the 2nd A in bar 2 fell on beat 7, rather than 6, hence the alteration, It may be my mistake, it probabily is lol! I've not decided to change anything!

PS88 thnx, I get u smile

Cheers to both of you!

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#1792220 - 11/19/11 05:54 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1049
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: wayne32yrs
dire-tonic, when I was trying to write bar 3 and 4, I started from the begining, counting, and noticed that the 2nd A in bar 2 fell on beat 7, rather than 6, hence the alteration, It may be my mistake, it probabily is lol! I've not decided to change anything!

PS88 thnx, I get u smile

Cheers to both of you!


Well they both sound good to me. Regarding "beat 7"; as PS88 has pointed out, we're in 4/4 here so your "7" is actually falling bang on the 4th crotchet. The idea of counting 1 thru 8 is just a facilitator, each of those is a quaver and thus half a beat.

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#1792225 - 11/19/11 06:09 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
time-out for me tonight guys, but thnx sooooo much, bk 2moz, will have more time to think stuff out then, night smile

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#1792517 - 11/20/11 10:10 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
Afternoon smile

Just thought I's summarise what I'm planning to do.....

How I'm plotting the melody:

I'm playing 8 notes in the left hand and the melody in the right. Then slowing down the tempo and plotting the melody notes on the beat number.





I'm then replacing the bass with the alternative rythym:





I am wondering though, when I play the melody with the 8 note bass, am I playing it differently to when I play it with the alternative bass?

Would this explain why in my original example the 2nd A in bar 2 falls on beat 6, but then falls on beat 7 when playing 8 notes in the bass?

I just want to be 100% sure of what I'm doing is correct, then I will finish writing the whole piece, then try to put the ties and stuff in the right places.

Then I just have to learn to play it lol.

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#1792568 - 11/20/11 12:42 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1049
Loc: uk south
..there are some differences, not in bar 2 but later on (bar 9 etc, I think). But all your variations work fine so I wouldn't get hung up on it, just pick one and write it out.

Before doing anything else though you need to brush up on the
time values and the manner of setting them out. A quick summary:-

Each bar in your piece has 4 beats, each beat has the time value 'crotchet'. We've used a count of 8 in each bar to help facilitate your transcription. So each of those 8s is a quaver, or half a beat.

don't forget:-

2 quavers = a crotchet
2 crotchets = a minim

Just to be clear, a quaver looks like a crotchet but has a tail added to the stem. If you have a group of quavers, they're often grouped together under or over a beam, just like the second half of each of bars in your bass part.
In your recording you repeat bars 1-4 so no need to write those out again.
Why not have a crack at writing out bars 9 - 13?

If you're still not sure how to go about it these look like they'd be well worth going through - shouldn't take you too long. Part 1 might be a bit too easy but it's only a few minutes to play it through. Parts 2,3 and 4 are highly relevant to your piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzGsFO2SNnw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbpxAGiZd8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOHXjKHFo00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiYoA9oTrhI

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#1792667 - 11/20/11 02:49 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1844
Loc: Sheffield UK
Thnx dire-tonic, I will watch those! I got plenty to be going on with now then, plus I've the rest of the recital pieces to listen too. I'll be back soon to let you guys know how I'm getting on.

Once again, thnx, much appreciated!

smile

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