Hello,

I've been reading the forums on and off for the past year preparing for the moment when I would have to buy a piano. The time has finally come and I'm more confused than ever. My two daughters (10 and 8) have been taking lessons (teacher focuses on classical) for over a year now and seem dedicated enough that we think it's time for a real, albeit digital piano. They've been getting by with an old 66 key Yamaha PSR-500. My wife would also like to learn but probably on her own and perhaps I may be inspired to as well. We expect to keep the piano for a while unless the girls turn out to be virtuosos

The most important features for us would be

• authentic acoustic piano sound and touch
• fully weighted keys
• touch sensitive keys
• graded hammer action
• MIDI IN\OUT
• learning mode\lessons
• bells and whistles are nice but not necessary

Our budget is around USD $1800+- but we could spend a little more if it makes sense. We're not averse to used pianos as long as the technology is current. I have been reading about the models below so they could a basis for recommendations:

• Kawai CN33
• Casio AP620, PX-830
• Roland F110, RP201
• Yamaha YDP-181, CLP-440, CLP-380
• Classenti CDP2

We may not be able to audition the pianos suggested depending on dealer location around Charlotte, NC. Sorry for the long winded post. Thank you all in advance for your input.

Hi,

I am also looking for a DP for my family. But I think your case is not completly comparable :
1) you are sure your investment will not be useless (because youre no more true beginners)
2) you seem more focused on academic (classical) and home playing

So our differences : you are ready to put more money, you better know your need. Anyway, I described my own story here :
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post1779998

First thing I wanted to point out, what about AP instead of DP ?

Second, could you go and test piano with you daughters ? Probably they are able to have their opinion by now ? The most important is that they like their piano (granting you remove the really bad options for their choices).

PS : I liked very much Kawai (CN33 or CN23), considering the kind of usage you will have ...
BR

Hi Zack,

I have been following your experiences in your thread. Interesting observations. I hope you're closer to your decision.

APs are expensive to buy and expensive to move. And here in North Carolina we have very high humidity so I expect it will mean frequent piano tuning. Also, a DP gives us more options such as built in lessons in case my wife and I want to learn. MIDI and recording capabilities, etc for my girls to experiment with in the future. My daughters are already trying to compose their own pieces!

At this stage I don't think they're going to have very strong opinions one way or the other since they have not played on many different pianos. We were also hoping to make it a Christmas present, therefore a surprise.

Just based on what I've read, the Kawai CN33 seems to strike a perfect balance. I'll try to seek out a dealer around here to try it out.

-Sri

I also think DP have more value and are more versatile for the money compare to the average or below average accoustic you find in houses.

The problem, is that my children (not so far from yours in age) remain attracted by the "real" piano. And I think motivation is the important thing (so look in 1).

Kawai CN23 and CN33, have this look (due to the console style), perhaps even more the CN23 (less buttons), but others in your list also have.

Ask to others, but I think Roland f110 and rp201 (PHA alpha2) are not very good in term of action, and that is the second important thing (so action in 2).

Then CLP, they are certainly very good piano, but very expensive too.

I am pretty sure, after all my research (other may confirm this), that next step will be sound improvement. GH and above (yamaha), RH and above (Kawai), and PHAII and above (Roland, but in a lighter style). Are really good enough, I am not sure your daughter can really judge this, GH and RH are more "conservative" choice I think (compare to average upright and "usual" piano teachers)...

Next step in sound improvement will be "sound generation", so DP with computer inside, or DP as a master keyboard connected to SW piano for sound generation. ANd this technology shift is beginning "right now". So, for me, not sure investing too much is a good idea (overspend only if you are healthy in 3).

So YP181 vs CN23 (or CN33, they share the same fondamentals, so perhaps you can save money) concerning the sound. I think Kawai has an edge for these models. Ask other opinions.

Casio has good DP, but more positionned on "budget"side. With your budget, I think you should better go with "big" brands (yamaha, roland, kawai).

Last thing is the "lesson" feature. I am not sure, so ask to others. If your daughters have lessons, I think lessons + books are enough. For your wife it could be different if she can't follow the same lessons, or don't want to learn music theory. But heaven in that case, perhaps online lessons or SW techer (via computer and midi is OK). I am not sure all embedded feature can really help (perhaps to have the recording of the piece, but that s all for me).

Hope it helps.
BR

I think i will go with kawai CL-36 (or Kawai CN-23). And focus on "short term" requirements and more easy consensus for the whole family. But I stop a bit, and let time "mature" decision. Like you, it will be a christmas gift, so I can wait a little

That sounds like a good choice. I went to a piano store today and spent a couple of hours perusing the various models. They didn't have any Kawai, but they had lots of Rolands and Yamahas. It reinforced a couple of opinions that I already had:

1. Kawai actions (at least, my Kawai action) are noticeably better than Yamaha and Roland. They didn't have the highest end Rolands, though. I was only able to test PHAII with escapement, not PHAIII. I played on the Yam P155 for quite a while. It was just ok. The Yamaha CLP 465 I played was their best Yamaha, but still somehow not as good as my Kawai. Is that even possible? That Roland ivory imitation stuff is yucky, by the way. I'll stick with plastic if possible.

2. Roland's sounds are head and shoulders better than Yamaha's. Especially those with the SuperNatural sounds. Even the highest end Yamahas I could play were less beautiful and had less variety in piano sounds than even the lower end Rolands. Cheaper Rolands have better sounds than older Kawais (i.e., mine), in my opinion--not that that's a super meaningful comparison. I don't know how the new, higher end Kawai's compare.

3. This place charged absolutely outrageous prices (at least, judging by the sticker price). These ghetto little Rolands cost as much as an AvantGrand N1. Better to buy a super-high-end stage piano online for a few grand than blow way more on a lame action and onboard sounds (with nice cabinetry).

I also saw some Rolands with little screens in them that give you piano lessons, and I was pretty impressed with that feature. Very fun for children who are just learning. Or anyone who is just learning. I haven't tried the equivalent under Kawai or Yamaha.

Imagine that "graded" piano action wasn't a necessary byproduct of acoustic piano design. Now imagine a new model design meeting where it is proposed that the lowest keys will be ever so slightly heavier and therefore slower as you go down the keys. Imagine that it being proposed that it will be seen as a demanded feature by piano consumers. Now look at your bullet points again. GHA is a marketing gimmick that has more to do with price point distinction and feature one-upmanship than it does with function, utility, or the ability to switch from digital to acoustic with ease. That being said, you usually do find GHA on companys' higher end offerings but that doesn't make the feature itself desirable or necessary. I deal with a lot of working freelance piano players everyday and we frequently talk about what they do or don't like in a digital piano. GHA has never come up. Not once.

If a piano you like has GHA as a marketing feature, great. It won't bother you.

If a piano you like DOESN'T have GHA as a marketing feature, great. It won't bother you.

As for the rest of your bullet list, YES on onboard recording and MIDI but NO on "Lesson" features as gimmicky and near useless. A teacher is always the best way. Failing that, a good book and a source of some mentoring is how you learn. A lesson book "built in" to a DP is like GPS built into the dash of a car. It usually doesn't do more or better than an aftermarket box and when it breaks, fixing or replacing it is phenomenally expensive which means you'll wind up with the book anyway. How expensive? I'll give you a hint, at our shop, Time is billed @ $110 per hour and a processor board for a DP will run 400-600 dollars (or more).

Skip the Classenti. It's probably a rebranded something else or knocked off in China. I've never seen one working a a busy repair shop on the west coast and I expect there are damn few authorized warranty shops (or parts) in the US. The other brands you list all do a good job with engineering and taking care of the service after the sale. From a customer service point of view. Yamaha is a 90 while Roland and Kawai hover in the low 80's. Still good scores but not as good as Yamaha.

Kurt

sriniwass, you may be interested to learn that Roland recently announced updates to the F-110 and RP-201 (the F-120 and RP-301 respectively), featuring improved sound and action technology.

It may be worth asking the store if these instruments will be available in the near future.

Best of luck with your search!

Kind regards,
James
x

Hum, yes these new Roland seems really interesting too (nice upgrade compare to current offering). I can find them in online store in france... But personnaly, i didn't like very much the action of fp4f (same action), but supernatural sound engine is really a good one. Roland has a "modern, delicate, soft" touch for me, not the most "regular/plain" accoustic piano approach (contrary to yamaha, kawai), a matter of taste (sure other will have opposite opinion, but that how i "feel" them).

Thanks Kurtz. One item to cross off the list.

Didn't know or haven't read any comments that the lessons are that bad. But point well taken with the analogy to GPS. It's mainly for my wife since she would not appreciate having to hook up the laptop for some lessons. Plus we can't afford lessons for the two of us in addition to our children.

The Classenti seem to be quite popular in Europe. I think they are just starting to find their way here. Perhaps that is why you haven't seen them in your repair shop. Or may be they're well built or less problematic since they seem to have few frills.

-Sri

Thanks James. Seems like only the F-120 is available in the US as of now.

I just spoke to a Kawai dealer and he encouraged me to give more thought to getting an AP. He said that even the best DP will not allow the student to learn to play expressively. He also said that in our climate here in North Carolina, the piano will probably only need tuning once a year for around $120. Any thoughts on this?

I think he's old-school.

In my opinion, many digital pianos are more expressive and playable than acoustic counterparts of equivalent price.

No digital will ever match a high end grand, but they do very well for learning and for replacing uprights. I'd rather play or learn on a medium or good digital than a cheap, poorly regulated grand.

But would you rather play/learn on a good digital than on a good grand?

No. Good grands are the best for playing. Even moderate grands are better than any digital, but they cost a lot more than digitals and I can't play them at night.

I guess I would rather learn on a good digital, though. No need to expose my family to my obnoxious scales and exercises, nor to let them hear me learn songs for the first time. Not pretty to listen to.

Well, I basically disagree.

Technically speaking, I think actions are realistic, and allow the same precision in touch. I also think that many sound engine have enough dynamism and depth to have feedback of the sensibility of your touch.
At least, this is enough for beginners, they have enough feedback to get the "thing", then when you have reached a certain grade, perhaps you are more enable to distinct what you prefer in term of sound and action (this true for DP and for AP).

DP are not "flawed" or "out of tune", like many some used accoutic, at least you have a "std" quality. ANd the "bar" is higher than many thinks.

The technology improves every year, so DP will remove upright from market for a large part.

The things that are not in par :
* console look, by itsel
* physical "presence" of sound (due to bad speakers : vibrations, direction, variations during sustain)

This part is more important for children, adult accept more the "virtuality" of the instrument, but it is an "abstract/rational" move. People are "emotional" with AP.

At the end, music is emotional. So its depends of "acceptance" of people, that digital can be emotionnal.

A used yamaha upright will cost 2 to 6k and will blow out of the water any digital piano in the same range.
If AP was an optipn for me (i.e noise is ok) then i would not think about it twice.

A used U3 would be great to learn on for any child.

I spoke to another piano teacher today and she had the same opinion as the Kawai dealer, i.e. a student will learn better, be more expressive and better motivated with an acoustic. But then again, she has a Steinway Grand so her point of reference is out my league. She is a bit younger but I suspect she might not have played any recent vintage DPs to know what their capabilities are since she described them as being monotonous.

qvfarns is right, the ability to play\practice using headphones is definitely a big advantage of having a DP.

Well consider price,
A used U3 is 4000€, we talk about DP at 1000€ !
And even, at 4000€ you have DP with V-piano thechnolgie like roland HPi-7f, or Kawai like CS9 wtih RM3, UHMI and "wood table speakers" (don't know the english name). I don't know which is the best compare to U3...

But, I agree learning on U3 is better than a 1000€ DP. I agree motivation is higher, and expressivity is better. This is an advantage for a child. But I think DP are a viable option, especillay if people are motivated and know AP feel and sound (but children will have lesson on AP, anyway).

Kawai James,

could be interesting to have an "insider" point of view...
Do Kawai compare the quality of its DP vs AP, from a "scientist" and "artistic" point of view ?
By artitisc pooint of view I mean rating by panel of professional pianist or "blind test" or whatever ?

Acoustic pianos are more of a known quantity. That is, they have been around for a while and people (such as piano teachers) are more familiar with what a good one and bad one sounds like.

Digitals have not been popular for long, and they are quite different now than they were, say 15 years go. Without being able to tell from lots of experience or from the look of them, people tend to group them together and disregard the differences in quality and age. But a bit of time at a piano shop with a strong digital presence reveals that there is a very large difference in quality between digitals. I think people who say digitals are not good for learning have only experienced old or low quality digitals.

The pianos shop (both acoustic and digital) I visited yesterday is a music center, with a bunch of rooms where people give piano lessons. All the rooms had digitals, not acoustics.