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#1792172 - 11/19/11 04:45 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
wayne32yrs, a tip for getting the quavers, crotchets, and minims assigned, after you have the skeleton as you're showing it: counting in 8 as here, a one-count note is a quaver. To be a crotchet, the note needs two counts. Minims need four counts.

There are some extra fine points such as a written minim normally starts on count 1 or 4; otherwise you would show it with some combination of tied quavers, crotchets, or dotted crotchets. Similarly for crotchets and odd counts -- which is why the bass shows tied quavers instead of a crotchet as the third note. But just getting all the one-count notes as quavers will be a start.

(The above is tailored for counting in 8: 1 count per quaver. If you were counting in 4 -- 1 count per crotchet -- the numbers would be different but the end result in written music would be the same.)

As dire tonic says, you can play from the skeleton. Assigning the quavers etc. correctly may help you in your reading in general by building a consistent map of appearance and rhythm that agrees with other music you may read.

I'm impressed by your ear: I could work out the rhythms, but would have a really hard time working out the pitches of this by ear.


Edited by PianoStudent88 (11/19/11 04:49 PM)
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#1792192 - 11/19/11 05:05 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1859
Loc: Sheffield UK
Thnx PS88, the quaver, crotchet, minim thing is what I need to read up on, you've helped though, cheers, what do you mean when you say....

"I could work out the rhythms, but would have a really hard time working out the pitches of this by ear"

Pitches, you mean the notes?

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#1792200 - 11/19/11 05:13 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1281
Loc: uk south
Yes, that's better but still a couple of further corrections viz:-



- note the double tie in bar 3.

There are often alternatives, forex, at the beginning of bar 3 that could have been G quaver (tied as is, from the previous bar) G dotted crotchet tied to the first G in the second half of the bar (as is).

Also, I'm not sure if you've decided to change the phrasing at the end of bar 2, but if you want it as the original then just use the notation from the earlier posting.


Edited by dire tonic (11/19/11 05:22 PM)

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#1792209 - 11/19/11 05:35 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
PianoStudent88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/16/11
Posts: 3181
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: wayne32yrs
Thnx PS88, the quaver, crotchet, minim thing is what I need to read up on, you've helped though, cheers, what do you mean when you say....

Be aware that most things you read will assign one count (beat) per crotchet. A quaver will be said to take half a beat. Your music here would be labelled "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" instead of "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8".

Quote:
"I could work out the rhythms, but would have a really hard time working out the pitches of this by ear"

Pitches, you mean the notes?
Yes, as in C, D, E, etc. I used "pitches" to try to distinguish from the written notes on the page, which encode both pitch and rythmic information.

dire tonic, when you say the use of tied quavers versus single crotchet on beat 3 of bar 2 changes the phrasing, how does that work? To me they're exactly the same thing. Can you say more?


Edited by PianoStudent88 (11/19/11 05:36 PM)
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#1792217 - 11/19/11 05:45 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: PianoStudent88]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1281
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: PianoStudent88

dire tonic, when you say the use of tied quavers versus single crotchet on beat 3 of bar 2 changes the phrasing, how does that work? To me they're exactly the same thing. Can you say more?


- sorry, got a bit ambiguous there. Yes, as you say 2 tied quavers = a crotchet.

I was referring to Wayne's very first RH video where the phrasing was <quaver, crotchet, quaver> instead of his later version <crotchet, quaver, quaver>

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#1792219 - 11/19/11 05:49 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1859
Loc: Sheffield UK
dire-tonic, when I was trying to write bar 3 and 4, I started from the begining, counting, and noticed that the 2nd A in bar 2 fell on beat 7, rather than 6, hence the alteration, It may be my mistake, it probabily is lol! I've not decided to change anything!

PS88 thnx, I get u smile

Cheers to both of you!

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#1792220 - 11/19/11 05:54 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1281
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: wayne32yrs
dire-tonic, when I was trying to write bar 3 and 4, I started from the begining, counting, and noticed that the 2nd A in bar 2 fell on beat 7, rather than 6, hence the alteration, It may be my mistake, it probabily is lol! I've not decided to change anything!

PS88 thnx, I get u smile

Cheers to both of you!


Well they both sound good to me. Regarding "beat 7"; as PS88 has pointed out, we're in 4/4 here so your "7" is actually falling bang on the 4th crotchet. The idea of counting 1 thru 8 is just a facilitator, each of those is a quaver and thus half a beat.

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#1792225 - 11/19/11 06:09 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1859
Loc: Sheffield UK
time-out for me tonight guys, but thnx sooooo much, bk 2moz, will have more time to think stuff out then, night smile

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#1792517 - 11/20/11 10:10 AM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1859
Loc: Sheffield UK
Afternoon smile

Just thought I's summarise what I'm planning to do.....

How I'm plotting the melody:

I'm playing 8 notes in the left hand and the melody in the right. Then slowing down the tempo and plotting the melody notes on the beat number.





I'm then replacing the bass with the alternative rythym:





I am wondering though, when I play the melody with the 8 note bass, am I playing it differently to when I play it with the alternative bass?

Would this explain why in my original example the 2nd A in bar 2 falls on beat 6, but then falls on beat 7 when playing 8 notes in the bass?

I just want to be 100% sure of what I'm doing is correct, then I will finish writing the whole piece, then try to put the ties and stuff in the right places.

Then I just have to learn to play it lol.

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#1792568 - 11/20/11 12:42 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1281
Loc: uk south
..there are some differences, not in bar 2 but later on (bar 9 etc, I think). But all your variations work fine so I wouldn't get hung up on it, just pick one and write it out.

Before doing anything else though you need to brush up on the
time values and the manner of setting them out. A quick summary:-

Each bar in your piece has 4 beats, each beat has the time value 'crotchet'. We've used a count of 8 in each bar to help facilitate your transcription. So each of those 8s is a quaver, or half a beat.

don't forget:-

2 quavers = a crotchet
2 crotchets = a minim

Just to be clear, a quaver looks like a crotchet but has a tail added to the stem. If you have a group of quavers, they're often grouped together under or over a beam, just like the second half of each of bars in your bass part.
In your recording you repeat bars 1-4 so no need to write those out again.
Why not have a crack at writing out bars 9 - 13?

If you're still not sure how to go about it these look like they'd be well worth going through - shouldn't take you too long. Part 1 might be a bit too easy but it's only a few minutes to play it through. Parts 2,3 and 4 are highly relevant to your piece.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzGsFO2SNnw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbpxAGiZd8E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOHXjKHFo00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiYoA9oTrhI

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#1792667 - 11/20/11 02:49 PM Re: Rythmic problems! [Re: wayne33yrs]
wayne33yrs Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 1859
Loc: Sheffield UK
Thnx dire-tonic, I will watch those! I got plenty to be going on with now then, plus I've the rest of the recital pieces to listen too. I'll be back soon to let you guys know how I'm getting on.

Once again, thnx, much appreciated!

smile

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