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Hi, I'm having an issue with a few students whom attend group lessons with me. This is an in-school/after-school free group lesson program, and I am a science teacher with pretty good piano playing skills, and very good teaching-in-general skills, but I'm still putting the two together so that I'm good AT teaching piano.

My issue is that the students in one of my group lessons have a totally unrealistic idea of where their skills are. We started sessions about 8 weeks ago and they were starting pretty much from scratch. When I asked the students what sort of music they wanted to play, they were all over the place. We settled on "Jingle Bells", which took them quite a while to learn. They had a lot of difficulty playing it rhythmically and accurately.

Last week, one of them came in thinking that he knew how to play "Fur Elise" and tried to play the opening notes (inaccurately, in the wrong key) and said that his twin brother had taught it to him, and in only five minutes. He claimed that he could teach it to the other two. I had all three demanding that this be the next song we learn. I played it for them as a way of demonstrating its difficulty level, and they were impressed and momentarily intimidated, but somehow still convinced that they were ready for it.

Our school's music teacher did have an easy version of the song (though it was still written out in musical notation, which these kids don't really have yet) but it still includes several chords that they haven't learned yet - they've never played anything with sharps or flats! Even the easy version is much too difficult and will be for some time.

As a compromise, I began working with them on an easy Ode to Joy version which is in the key of C. They were very excited about learning a Beethoven song, even if it wasn't their preferred one. They struggled with the melody a bit, but are getting it. But when I tried to explain that they weren't "done" with it and this didn't mean they were now ready for Fur Elise, they argued with me.

I said, "The piece you want to learn is way more difficult than this one."
One student replied, "No, it isn't."

My assistant, who was in the back of the room, actually started laughing. That saved me from getting angry, at least. I replied, "Interesting. How do you know that?" She fell silent.

A few minutes later, one of the students called me over to say he was "done" learning Ode to Joy and proceeded to stumble and fumble his way through it, not fluently at all. He seemed disappointed when I told him he had more work to do. I was flabbergasted that he said he was "done" when his playing was so un-musical. All he cared about was pushing his way through it.

I don't think these kids have an internal model of what "good" playing sounds like or feels like. They can recognize it when I model it for them, but are unable to judge their own performance. Their motivation rises when they think they are tackling a challenge, but when the task gets too difficult, they fizzle out. They also have learning issues and attention challenges in general, so this is a problem that goes far beyond piano.

The way that the program is set up isn't helping, either. There isn't a curriculum provided (this is a brand new pilot program hastily thrown together by our school) so there is no leveled lesson book to work through to give the students a concrete idea of what the skills are and what order they are supposed to be introduced. In any case, I don't know that introducing a lesson book at this point would even work. These students have a great deal of difficulty paying attention during lessons and all have significant learning disabilities, so I'm not convinced that a traditional style that emphasizes note reading is the right way to go.

I'm working very hard to find appropriate materials for them that they will find motivating and that tackle skills they are ready to learn. I could give them the "easy" version of Fur Elise and let them experience what it's like to totally tank, but my concern is that they'll think they're doing well with it and this will reinforce the unrealistic ideas that they have. Any suggestions would be welcome!

I think you're right to give them realistic feedback, first of all, so they are already learning from that. No doubt it is unpleasant for them, but it's good for them to understand where their skills really are.

Part of what you say seems to describe a situation where few people are taking the program seriously -- the school is not, and the students are not. The students may sense that the school isn't taking it seriously. Are they there to learn to play the piano, or to occupy time and make them feel good about themselves? The ironic part is that they will only really feel good about themselves if they take the material seriously and gain skills.

When a student says he or she is "done", do you think she or he would react positively to an on-the-spot recital for the other students? The answer, I guess, would indicate whether they really believe that they can play well, or if they are just trying to get attention by claiming to you that they are "done". Perhaps, they are used to gaining praise for performances of trifling effort.

You might try recording the students performances, and then playing it back so they can hear it.

Many people, especially newbies, have most if not all of their attention focused upon simply trying to playing the notes. Hearing what they are playing is in the far distance of their awareness, so to speak.

A recording is unbiased, and brutally truthful.

ps...I use my Iphone for it.

Hi Eviltwin, from what I remember of the set up, you're doing a great job having got so far! Well done!

You're right they're in no position to judge their performance, and it may be quite painful to make them do so.

I'm guessing a lot of it is bravado - 'I'm so cool, this is easy for me' - in front of the whole group. You could try some aural training (e.g. dictation) where there is a right and a wrong answer, to take them down a peg.

After jingle bells - maybe rudolph the rednosed? It jumps around enough to keep them busy and I'm guessing you won't care so much when the make a hash of it.

And if it all gets too much, just be glad they're not playing violin. Or bagpipes.

Group lessons are HARD!

Teaching more than one person at the same time changes everything.

Some things to think about:

Ode to Joy, in any version using the theme on the piano, is incredibly "simplified", for obvious reasons. It is more accepted because it is not something originally written for piano.

I most definitely do teach a very simple, dumb-downed version of the Fuer Elise theme, five finger positions in both hands with only the D#s to make it a bit more complicated. But I do this very near to the beginning, when students are just getting oriented. And I don't use any finger numbers.

Ode to Joy often has a LH part like this, in the middle: G G# A F# G, so in a way it is more complicated unless you really dumb it down.

When I play the ultra-siplified version, for beginners, I tell all of them that we will follow it up with the real thing, the main theme, within about 6 monhts.

Good luck with your group. If you could teach all these kids separately, I think almost all your biggest problems would disappear.

This is an incredibly inportant topic. Kids are VERY good at performing up to expectations - often with a complete disregard for how "difficult" those expectations are. But how to show them the required standard?

I have a theory that it is almost impossible for a first-generation musician to really reach the highest level. They spend their early learning years being praised for what is, in reality, mediocre performance. By the time they discover real standards, it's too late.

I have a friend whose father was (and is) a respected professional double-bass player. He didn't HAVE to take up music. But, if he did, it was inevitable that he'd do it well because, all his life, he'd lived with demonstration of professional standards. Yes, he did take up the bass. And he plays it in one of the top London orchestras.

His daughter does the dancing-school thing. But not at the usual crap dancing-school standard. She gets into West End musicals and operas. How COULD she have performed at a mediocre level? She was brought up seeing it done properly.

I respect my father's legal career. But I really wish he'd been a performer.

eviltwin13, can you affirm some part of what they've accomplished and then ask them to add something more?

For example, "Great, you've got all the notes to Ode to Joy. Now let's add playing the rhythm."

Or at a lower level, "Great, you're starting and ending in the right place. Now let's work on getting more of the notes in the middle."

This is gleaned from other experiences in teaching, usually informally, but not with piano, children, or special needs children, so it may not apply. But I offer it in case it's of use.

Hi, eviltwin13! It sounds like a few of the students might be trying to run the show, which would make it difficult to stay on task even with a set curriculum. I think I would go out and select a group piano book that can be left at the school, and work through it week to week, making the book "the bad guy" ('sorry, that piece isn't in the book!') I think having a set text in this setting will help keep everyone on task and you won't need to spend your teaching time persuading the children that you know what they don't. It sounds like you must have incredible patience. Not sure if I could do it...

With everyone in a book, you could pace it so everyone stays together in class, even if some look ahead at home. I would also try to come up with a pretty tight routine, so they don't have time to argue with you over what is what. Keep it moving, and yes, do incorporate ear-training and listening so they can begin to recognize correct and incorrect notes and rhythms. Would the school purchase even one small set of books? I'm guessing you've been down that road already...

(cross-posted... Never mind, MsAdrienne has much better ideas.)

The group piano book that Alfred's publishes is $9.95, but may be discounted through certain vendors. Would something like this be a remote possibility for your class?

Here is the link: Alfred's Group Piano Course

I really feel for you, having to reinvent the wheel with this class, and with the apparent lack of real support from the administration at the school. Why was your assistant laughing? Was it that the student (who _by definition_ is ignorant of the levels of piano music) or the overall discourse?

Hi everyone, thanks for your suggestions! I am definitely going to start taking video of their "performances" - could be a great teaching tool as well as a reality check. I'm also continually gathering more tools to teach them, so that hopefully I can have a "bag of tricks" ready for any need.

My assistant (who teaches science with me, NOT piano) was laughing because of the blatant silliness of a student brand new to a subject arguing with the teacher about difficulty levels. She sees these students in other teaching contexts and has noted the same tendency that they have towards insisting that they are right and the teacher is wrong, when the teacher clearly has the expertise and background knowledge.

To me this is a life skill that the students need to learn that goes well beyond piano - when to trust an "expert", when to ask questions that challenge assumptions, when to trust your own intuition and ignore conventional wisdom. As an absolute beginner, most times it is best to trust the teacher, at least until you've developed enough experience and knowledge to be able to discuss the subject with some basis in fact. I do not mean to suggest that they should blindly accept everything that I say without question, but in the absence of any experience or information that would suggest to them that they know better than I do, it doesn't do them any good to argue with me or to insist something is true that is clearly not.

As another angle on this, can I suggest looking into the work of Lucy Green.
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Informal-Learning-School-Classroom/dp/0754665224

This work is based around informal learning practices and has been adopted in the UK as the Musical Futures Project in some schools. Although based around popular music, their are some useful insights into music pedagogy that could be relevant.

I think what you have here in this group piano class is a mixture students and their informal approach to learning music, verses our, in most cases, highly structured previous musical training and associated learning experiences. Students of today can have a very different view on how their learning experiences should unfold.

Students can learn music, and some quite difficult music, by ear. Yes, they often lack of the technical ability to perform some of the repertoire, and that's where you step in. The students' insistence on learning a certain piece of music is all part of their enthusiasm, not necessarily a challenge of your knowledge and wisdom.

Having another perspective in music pedagogy helps to give a wider view on what you are trying to achieve with this group, and to offer up some ideas and directions to help you do this.

Good luck.

eviltwin, your school does not have a music teacher on staff? Or is it someone who covers 4 schools and isn't there on a daily basis?

One thing is clear from this thread: Schools offering group piano classes are not likely to offer competition to private piano teachers.

The informal learning compromise is likely to be more helpful with students learning guitar or harmonica.

Hi eviltwin13! What an interesting story! It reminded me of the times I taught at private and public schools.
Students need a clear set of goals, so they will themselves realize when they are done, and there must be different levels of "pass" because not everyone learns at the same pace, they have to know what you consider the goal is, and of course... it has to be achievable and measurable. You'll have to use your creativity here to grade the different levels of achievement, and make sure they understand the goal (or mini-goals).

And something as simple and natural (for us...) as tapping the tempo for a song can be a great learning experience/exercise for them. They can tap, or walk as you play, stand up and sit down, clap for the first beat and just touch thier heads for the rest of the beats and so on. Maybe you can work with the music "elements" (notes, durations, tempo, rythm, loudness...) and have them do a receptive work more than something productive. The same as when we learn a language, at the beginning we usually feel more confident with the receptive abilities (reading, listening) then we get confidence in the productive skills of writing and ultimatelly speaking.

I believe Piano Adventures Premier level would be suitable for them?

I hope all this makes some sense.
Please do let us know how this goes!
Regards.

If these students have learning disabilities, they can't be held to the same standards and expectations of mainstream students.

And just like a school teacher, a lesson plan and some measurable outcomes will make for a smoother ride.


With Fur Elise, I allow students to play those first three "infamous" measures of the right hand and work with them in playing it so it sounds right. I will even write it in big font on staff paper. Sometimes their hands are so small I modify it to two hands.

I cannot hold children, immature students or learning disabled students to the standards of more mature students, and so I allow these modifications to Fur Elise, because instilling the joy for music is more important at this stage of their development. One day, some of those students will have the emotional and musical maturity to play the real Fur Elise as Beethoven intended. I have seen this come to be in my studio time and time again.

It sounds as though some students aren't taking the program seriously, and they are all going to be at different levels after a few lessons, as each child will learn at their own pace. I believe that the previously mentioned idea of group lesson books (if the school will provide them to you) might help curtail the problem a bit, but with a large group of kids all at different levels and learning abilities, it's definitely an uphill battle. I wish you all the best, and if you hit on something that works, let us know!