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Joe: Should you Verituner onlyist? Do you tailor the styles, or just use the build in style?

I've encountered a few pianos, all of them old, neglected, needing new hammers, etc., where after tuning C3-C5 with an ETD, upon an aural check I turned the ETD off as everything was messed up hopelessly.

Kees

I only see this problem when the initial sample notes are quite a bit off their theoretical frequencies. Quite often with these I will pretune the sampled notes' string to a saved tuning file of a similar sized piano first.

I tune samples as well before measuring. I'm sampling "A"s so I tune A=440, and tune the other "a"s to that by ear. Tunelab lets you know if you have a good sample. If the reading on a sample looks weird, I'll re sample the same or a different string. My SAT was very sensitive to volume when taking samples. I don't know if that was my particular machine, or if they are all like that.

I tend to stay with the default styles. Testing various stretch numbers (-2.0 to +2.0) is too time consuming. (40 variations x 3 default styles = 120 possibilities to test.) If I'm not getting good results with the default styles, I'll re-tune or tweak by ear. Life is short

I did try a Ron K. custom style about a week ago and I was quite pleased. (Style 4.5 on a Mason & Hamlin console)

Weiyan, do you stay with the default styles?

That's why I hesitate to weigh in I don't know all the various devices and software first-hand.

So sorry. I am still in training. My mentors don't accept ETD. One of my mentor insist use a fork. He said "useing an electronic meter shows you are incapable". Even I have a Cyberhammer, I can't use it now.

I like your method. Stay with default style, then make the piano become music by ear. I will adapt this method when in field work.

Does using an X-ray mean a doctor is incapable?
Does using a code reader show that a mechanic is incapable?
Does using a computer mean that a typist is incapable?
Does using a nail gun mean that a carpenter is incapable?

I say, if the tool helps, use it.

Not to say that a tuner should be incapable of tuning by ear.

That is a lack of understanding when someone says that a person is incapable of tuning if they use an ETD. That is like saying, well, I've used a card file system all of my life! It's STUPID to use a computer for that! I could never learn how to use a computer, it's way to complicated for me. I hear that line all the time by elderly people set in their ways that don't know any better. No offense to them of course.

That's what computers are for, to make life LESS complicated, less confusing and easier. It is a tool, indeed, to be used IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE HUMAN EAR. Could you hear me say that all the way from here???? WITH THE HUMAN EAR???

+1

Thanks for sharing that. The Wurlitzer spinet where I had trouble with the ETD was within 5 cent of pitch, despite not being tuned for 7 years, courtesy of California climate.
I tracked down the problem to the terrible break.

The other piano I had trouble with was a 1926 Knabe grand which had not been tuned for 30 years but was still quite playable, rather amazing. Also in California. I raised the sample notes before measuring inharmonicity not from a similar tuning file as you recommend but from a zero inharmonicity default. Perhaps that was the reason it didn't work out well.

Kees

Luckily, my other mentor is a very fine tuner. He encourage me to use a chromatic tuner as a learning aid.

I think use ear to listen 4th 5th is easier than using ETD, for ETD is very tough, no mistake can be hidden. The hammer skill is more difficult.

How does the Verituner "measure up" a piano that one has not tuned with it before? I understand with the Cybertuner that it samples notes from across the entire spectre of the piano where as the verituner starts with an octave in the middle of the piano and continues as in an aural tuning. Next time tuning the same piano you would do differently and start with the deepest tone and go up.
Another question - in Cybertuner you get a "blush" when the tuning is right, where as in Verituner there is no such clear indication to show when the tuning is exact. To verituner users; do you adjust until the "needle" is right in the middle and doesn't move or do you stop when it just gets very slow (+/- 1-2 cents)?

With any of the ETD's you get it as close as you can to where the machine indicates it is good, then you do one of two things. You either confirm it with your ear (if you can aurally tune), or you assume/pray it is good and move on. I would venture to guess that 99% of the time, the better ETD's do an acceptable job if one is fully capable in its set up and use and one can also aurally tune unisons afterwards.

I do beleive the accuracy of the blush in RCT is dependant on the sensitivity you set the machine for initially. I typically set the spinner to a 3-4 cent sensitivity on pitch raises and to 1 1/2 cents on fine tuning. Default is 2 cents on fine tuning I beleive. Once you get the sensitivity down to one cent or below, it is extremely difficult to get the spinner to stop or the blush to appear consistantly. It tends to waste ones time more than it helps you with the tuning as any proper tool should.

It is up to the technician to decide if they want to, or how much "pre-listening" the Verituner will get. It will calculate based on one note (A4) and then refine the tuning as you reach more notes. Some of us have decided that it is worth the time to let the VT listen to a few octaves of notes (single string) before getting down to tuning - though I pull up that single string as I let the VT listen so I am getting some work done while it measures the inharmonicity.

The display of the Verituner has three indications of how close the sounding pitch is to the calculation:

1. spinner - spins right or left - you set the speed parameter
2. needle - you can set the scale - at the finest, it is easy to see if you are within your tuning range.
3. numeric display - just try and get it to stop at 0.0!

I think the blush may just give perfectionists the permission to move on to the next note and stop trying to make it better!

Ron Koval