Mr. Billings,

According to your bio, you are the author of the Piano Retailer Code of Ethics.

As owner of the Steinway Piano Gallery of Naples, would you please explain how your "opinion" posted on your "own web site" dovetails with the following point from the aforementioned ethical code?

I'm sure Mr. Billings will comment that it is indeed well known that 99% of the professional piano market is owned by Steinway. By that what is meant is that 99% if venues and 99% of concert artists are Steinway artists. Because of Steinway's well known ownership of this aspect of the market the case can be made that no other piano comes close to Steinway in recognition by professional pianists. Add in the bullying of Gary Grafman when he dared perform on a Bosendorfer and you get a situation where other artists may be unwilling to risk not having a Steinway available to perform on when Steinway is the only piano that's readily available anywhere in the world. Does that make Bosendorfer or Fazioli merely adequate pianos for either home of professional use? Of course not! But, Steinway is the only piano company with the infrastructure in place to provide pianos for professional use throughout most of the world. So the monopoly continues.

since when is quantity synonymous with quality? by that pretzel logic steingraebers must be bottom of the barrel.

So when are the Steinway thugs going after Herbie Hancock and Disney Concert Hall?

I have to agree with Steve. Monopolies bring out unpleasant habits in companies. Steinway has a virtual monopoly on the use of pianos in concert halls around the world. If we grant that it has taken a lot of hard work to create and then maintain this monopoly, we still have to agree that ultimately Steinway, as a publicly held company, would only continue financing this monopoly (the Concert Artists Program) if it had demonstrable, ongoing financial benefits for the company. Those benefits come in the form of increased piano sales, which result in part by Steinway claiming that an overwhelming number of concert pianists play only on Steinways, and twisting that to infer that Steinways are therefore superior to all other concert grands and are the piano of choice for almost all artists.

These last two conclusions are certainly unwarranted and probably not true, but we just don't know, because artists are not given a choice. A few with significant stature have stood up to the monopoly, and even then been chastised by Steinway or even punished by them because the company refuses to supply them any more of their pianos at concert halls. These are hardly the actions of a company interested altruistically in promoting high standards of piano performance worldwide by offering free pianos at concert halls. These are, instead, the actions of a company willing to play hard ball with concert pianists and concert halls just to maintain its monopoly.

That's what monopolies do to companies. In this case you get distorted logic in claiming that almost all concert artists prefer Steinways because they are such superior instruments to the competition, and then you get nasty, vengeful actions by the company when any artist tries to buck the system.

For the record, no artist has ever been compensated to play publicly on a Fazioli piano. I know this because I've met Paolo Fazioli many times over the years since I have been a Fazioli owner, and he insists the company does not pay anybody to play his instruments. His philosophy is very simple: he encourages concert artists to play on whatever instruments they prefer. I've never once heard him say anything negative about Steinway pianos. His passion has always been ways to improve the piano, and he gets enthusiastic about the ongoing advances that he and other companies are making to piano design and construction. While he could ramp up his concert grand production and create competition for the Concert Artists Program, he has no interest in setting up a marketing program like that. He concentrates on making the very best pianos he can, and that means he prefers to keep production numbers down to 100+ a year.

I'm sorry Mr. Billings thinks that Fazioli and Bosendorfer are notable only because they are obscure and terribly over-priced, and that no serious artist would perform publicly on such a piano (and those who do play on these pianos have to be bribed in order to subject themselves to such embarrassment). There are in point of fact some superb concert artists today who will only play publicly on these pianos. There are other artists who prefer Hamburg Steinways to NY Steinways. I've been to several concerts by Maurizio Pollini where he uses a Hamburg Steinway that travels with him, but blazoned on the side in much bigger letters is the name "Fabbrini". Apparently the basic NY and Hamburg Steinway isn't good enough for Mr. Pollini.

Should I take away from that that there is something wrong with Hamburg and NY Steinways? Absolutely not. Steinway makes wonderful pianos. As I wrote earlier, the company should be willing to let the pianos speak for themselves. There is no need to keep running advertisements suggesting that concert pianists choose Steinways because this is their artistic preference. They may have artistic reasons for playing on Steinways, but they also choose Steinways because this is their business preference, the result of having no other practical options when traveling from city to city. The company would also do well to instruct their dealers to stop expressing negative comments about other pianos, and certainly to stop making stuff up about the competition, as Mr. Billings does.

But Mr. Billings contends that it's just his opinion, and that you shouldn't get personal.

He said this:



You see, saying that something is "just my opinion" is the standard neutralizer that allows people to say outrageous things. When challenged, "Hey, it's just my opinion, don't get personal." Sort of like chocolate versus vanilla, after all. Right?

As an individual, he can express any opinion he wishes.
But as a salesman, he ought to focus on business.

Has Mr. Billings adequately included his affiliation and role in the piano industry in his signature? Just asking.

It appears that Greg Billings has recently joined PW in order to address the concerns mentioned in this thread... let's give him a chance to comply with the rules about industry affiliation.

Rick

Along with the ridiculously high prices of their new pianos...

Following some of the links above, I learned a few things that may be news to many: in 2000 the "William Steinway University" was founded. [I'll refrain from making a reference to All Steinway Schools to avoid entangling current on-going threads here.] There you can get a Bachelor's Degree in five days. The article goes on to say that another five days of (no doubt intensive) training at the William Steinway University will get you a Masters Degree.

Poor Yamaha, all they have is the Little Red Schoolhouse!

I have only read a few paragraphs from the website of this dealer.

There is a lot of opinion stated as fact.

At the bottom of the web site page there is this comment in the “general conclusions”

“In conclusion, it is not reasonable to assume the quality of a piano based on the home country of the brand name.”

So after page of what, 10,000 characters or more written, the writer dismisses his own argument.

This whole thing is a waste of a good discussion.

quote]

since when is quantity synonymous with quality? [/quote]

"Quantity has a quality all its own."

VLADIMIR LENIN, quoted in James F. Dunnigan's How to Make War

I had a local Steinway dealer actually tell me that Bosendorfer was a better instrument to play a certain composer's work. I don't remember the composer's name, but I certainly remember the comment and that he mentioned his competition in such a favorable manner.

You have to respect someone like that.

This kind of topic rarely ends well.

It's at 5 pages now, expect to see it at 20 soon!

He might have been making a joke about a Bösendorfer being good for playing Ravel's "Jeux d'Eau" which has a G#0 in it that's generally played as an A on pianos that only have 88 keys.

BTW: I just got a recording of Schubert Sonata D.960 and the "Moments Musicaux" performed by Frank Levy on Palexa records on a Fazioli piano.

And despite this comment from that Steinway website



...there doesn't seem to be any lack of dynamic range or "stability" in this recording.

There was an article in the Jerusalem Post the other day (here's an English link) about pianist Revital Hachamoff and her fondness for Fazioli (or פציולי as they say in Israel).

Here's something I can relay from one of my own travels.

It's always a pleasure to visit Steinway dealers when in Germany, including the Hamburg location. The pianos are beautiful and a treat - virtually "each and every one".

When asking the Germans about the difference between "American and German Steinways", the answer seems always the same: "you can't compare those pianos"

Every salesman [or owner] I have ever spoken to in Germany, told me exactly same, in fact some were quite emphatic about it.

Which occasionally led me to ask another question. I asked if "they would take a U.S. made Steinway as trade in".

Next time anybody here is in Germany, do ask same question.

Then add that you already happen to own a Grotrian,Bechstein,Schimmel which you would like to use as trade in.

Then watch for answers and compare them with statements or claims allegedly made by U.S. Steinway dealer.

Chances are you'll find out real quick this to be a very different world.....

Norbert

Norbert, would you be so kind as to include what their answers were? (Or buy me tickets to Germany, I'd be glad to find out the answers myself :P).

+1

I think most dealers in Germany have very little personal experience with NY Steinways. While Hamburg Steinways are not uncommon in North America, and enjoy a certain cachet here, the opposite does not hold true in Europe, deserved or not.

The answers are very much predicatble: 'not interested' or 'I'll take it a much lower price as it normally would go with a N.A. dealer'.

There are two reasons for that:

1. In general European dealers - also Steiwnay dealers - do not hav a high esteem for Steinway NY pianos; this may be based on true grounds or may jsut be a prejudgement ("deserved or not" as Jurgen Goering says) but it is however a reallity.

2. For a Steinway NY the general market law applies. The less a brand name is recognized by the public, the less value it has on the used market. Steinway may well be, to some extend, succcessful in making Bostons/Essexes accepted as cousins within the 'Steinway Family', the closer brother/sister - the Steinway NY - is much less known by the general public as a family member. So the dealer who is wondering whether he will trade in a Steinway NY or not knows very well it will be on his showroom floor for quite a time.

schwammerl.

which would be, considering the context, decisive force, to others' points about steinway's marketing 'techniques'.

The word "quality" actually means "trait" or "attribute." One of the modernisms in English that drives me crazy is the use of "quality" as a synonym for "high quality" or "excellence." That is NOT what it means. The word quality has no value judgment attached. To say, for example, that one owns a "quality" piano is utterly meaningless unless one qualifies one's use of the term. A piano can be high quality or low quality, but it cannot be quality.

With this as background, the Lenin quotation changes meaning. . . .

Yes, I agree. And this problem extends to much more than just the word "quality". Whether in casual discussion or in public media, speakers often use words inappropriately, rendering the message vague, ambiguous, or even meaningless.

"A Steinway piano requires about 3,000 hours of labor. Asian pianos require about 1,500 hours. Other pianos use much less. A few manufacturers, like Steinway & Sons, use a rigorous apprentice journeyman system. Factories in the southern U.S. simply assign hourly laborers to do specific jobs."

Subject dealer's webpage: http://www.steinwaypianogallery.net/how-to-buy/piano-myths

"A Steinway & Sons piano requires about 300 hours of labor while the typical piano takes a fraction of that time. Budget pianos are built even faster. Steinway & Sons uses a rigorous apprentice program to insure their exacting methods are passed down from one generation of craftsmen to the next."

Source: http://www.billingspiano.com/services/mythbusting/

Is it puffed up plagiarism, shucking and jiving, or just plain cow plop?

Knowing Steinway NY makes about 3000 pianos anually of which 2500 are grand pianos you do not need to be a mathematician to figure out which quote is wright.

Suppose the first one to be correct how many people would Steinway NY have to employ as to make 2500 grand pianos per year, knowing one person works about 1760 - 1850 hrs per year?

schwammerl.

Plagiarism? Hardly. These two web sites are for separate dealers actually owned by the same family.

Cow plop then?