I don't have any problems with people telling their honest opinions about their competitor's products.

How do you know they're honest? Because you want to believe?

An old aphorism seems to govern all too much sales behavior: A fool and his money .....

Neither do I - as long as those "honest opinions" aren't "lies."

A local dealer used to feed me the most incredible BS about a certain Tier One piano - but when he began to carry the brand a couple of years later his tune changed dramatically.

Curious what that could have been.

Willing to share? [don't need to mention name..]

Norbert

Like a lot of salesmen Greg seems to be full of complete BS ...... just my opinion of course

Since there are just a handful of dealers in the Phoenix area, I'd rather not be specific !!!!

Well, we all know there's only one Tier One piano--at least according to the website that started this thread--and the only reason people sell other pianos is because they can't get a St**nw*y dealership!

(Greetings from Hawaii! Here we are on our rented Segways at Diamond Head. It's the best way to spend Thanksgiving.)

When the client asks you about other dealer's credibility. You understand that this person "customer" is trying to find out the truth not only about the quality of the piano, but about the whole operation of the dealership. From my point of you, you have to release all information you know about the dealer to the client, if you are asked to do so. For instance if you are aware that this particular dealer claims that he has a restoration facility and you know for a fact that he doesn't. It would be best to tell the client that he was lied to, it would be ethical to do so.

If this dealer is selling lemons (pianos), and you know it. You have to disclose it to the client as well. This would not be considered as "bad mouthing", but more than that it will help your client not to be caught in a mousetrap.

Bewildered what any dealer could possibly B.S. about another tier one piano being in same group.

Incidentally someone in Phoenix is claiming on his website his..... tier 1 brand is "above Steinway".

Perhaps should read again here:

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall11/44.html

Norbert

so why complain about piano dealerships if everybody lies and no one can tell if they're honest anyway?

He's probably referring to NY Steinway which account for most of the Steinways sold in the U.S.

Well, if you have actually been reading this thread, you will have noticed that quite a number of us have come down pretty hard on Mr. Billings for a number of things. First and foremost, he bashes the competition. Perhaps you don't mind this sales approach, thinking it "honest." Most of the rest of us understand the tactic as a mechanism for persuading people who have very little of their own information. Suggestible people are relatively easy prey for what a lot of us here think is a disreputable tactic. The tactic persists because it probably works on enough customers, even if it loses others.

The problem with this particular website goes further than mere negativity. It is riddled with errors, and filled with mere innuendo lacking any evidence. Even where the material has some basis in fact -- the artist program does lead professionals to play on Steinways most of the time -- the inference from this that everybody else is second rate is a leap of logic into the absurd. As many have argued, Steinway's near monopoly position on the concert stage is a function of many things, but it is clearly NOT a result of Steinway pianos being demonstrably better than those second tier European instruments.

So this is why many of us have "complained." Actually, I think we have skewered this little webvertisment rather humorously.


P.S. I have dealt with sales people who have not trashed other makers. A number of them post here.

I don't really care who makes the piano as long as the super structure is sound & the plate is solid(prefer sand cast to vacuum cast plates)The essential item is the soul of the piano is, the soundboard and the way it was assembled and set up. I have installed hammers & bass strings in Young Changs, Samicks, Yamaha's and Kawais. Many (not all) of the OEM parts on the pianos in question make the piano sound like its trying to produce the sound of shattering glass but... the soundboards would sing like St. Olafs Choir.(Minn) when given a hammer and bass string transplant.
Recently, I played a white 6 ft Young chang, 10 years old, about 3 weeks ago in San Diego at Acme Piano(Paul Robinsons shop) and the hammers were decent. It had a beautiful Sitka Spruce board with sustain for days in the melody range.
Such improvements are possible on these instruments. Pianos are about the quality of music and the way an instrument engages the player and hearer alike.
So the Snarky Steinway dealer forgot this, smearing everyone in his path. He probably runs his whole life like that.
Dale

People ask "Why do politicians air negative ads?" They generally are disliked by the voters, but one fact remains, they work. Drop a bomb on the competition right before election day and true or not, the doubt you can create can boost you to election. Perhaps the same is true for piano sales. A buyer might be about to purchase brand X and is out to make sure they are choosing wisely, when all of a sudden, dealer Y drops a bomb on brand X. If done skillfully with tact, I bet it works more often than not.

I don’t think this particular Steinway dealer is the prince of darkness nor do I think his advertising marks any particular reach toward grace. But as advertising it works because if you are inclined buy a Steinway, his efforts will make you feel good about buying a Steinway.

It also uncovers how insecure people are about their own purchases and dealerships. And the only way to fight someone else’s trash talking, of course, is to throw a bit of your own. No one, after all, wants to feel belittled or small-minded because they didn’t purchase or sell a new Steinway.

I’m reminded of a poster who proudly purchased some obscure German piano, trumpeted about it somewhat until he discovered it was ranked second by Larry Fine, then to cover his embarrassment he ranted about how inaccurate Fine’s assessments were, but made sure when he purchased his next obscure German piano it was unassailably perched atop the Fine approved hill.

So. Marketing works. And everyone clings to their own little piece of it to rationalize their purchase and taste. This board is well-known for its Steinway public burnings, again probably out of some base insecurity and lack of Steinway dealers, but it’s funny to see the witch hunt throw its net to Florida while often ignoring the same ridiculous statements from Piano World House dealers . . . and of course some of these dealers smell Steinway blood and can’t seem to help themselves from getting an easy kick in.

As for accuracy (after all, isn't this an advertisement?), it could be tightened up a bit, updated, and it might help to adjust the statement about SMC being the modern Aeolian, gathering up defunct piano companies in its trick bag, especially in light of Samick’s current position at Steinway.

The few retailers who post here take full advantage of this brand snobbery. And the rebuilders are just as bad often questioning Steinway’s current philosophy while trading on the Steinway name, proudly standing as the true saviors of Steinway’s legacy. That some of them appear more acrobatic and smooth talking than this particular dealer makes the artifice no less glaring.

Mike

...speaking of the "Prince of Darkness".

Marketing is one thing. Outright lies are another. Like 3,000 labor hours are put into each Steinway.

I do think Mike Carr hit the nail on the head; the purpose is to reassure customers that they made the right decision, and not necessarily to entice customers who are in the market for a Bösendorfer or Fazioli to get a Steinway instead.

“Marge, it takes two to lie - one to lie, and one to listen." -Homer Simpson

I do not think that it shows confidence in one's brand when a dealer resorts to trashing other brands in order to sell his or her brand. To the contrary. It shows that the dealer is unwilling to allow his or her pianos to speak for themselves; clearly, such a dealer is afraid that his or her pianos will not be able to compete without all the verbal accompaniment. The fact that these trash-talking dealers are trying to keep their prospects from even trying out other brands speaks for itself. They clearly think that their pianos are inferior, if they are so terrified of their customers trying out the alternatives.

I do not like it when salesmen trash other dealerships and piano brands as part of trying to scare me into buying their pianos--because that is precisely what it is.

BTW, I do not like negative political campaigns, either, and I think poorly of my fellow citizens who conduct them, and perhaps even more poorly of my fellow citizens who allow them to influence their decisions.

Briefly stated, dealers who trash other dealership and other brands show the following:

1. They think that their customers are idiots whom they can scare into buying a piano for the wrong reasons.

2. They think that they can persuade their customers to buy pianos for reasons that have nothing to do with the pianos themselves.

3. They think that their pianos cannot speak for themselves. They are so insecure about their pianos that they feel they must rely on factors other than the quality of their pianos to sell them.

My less than two cents.

+1

The industry suffers from ever decreasing transparency this involving many brands from virtually all continents and countries today.

One of the problems for manufacturers seems to be how to stay 100% "above board" when building several lines of pianos, all of which are competing against a multitude of comparable others.

Interestingly enough those who stick to one single line of quality, including those among the Germans, are doing very well in today's market. Those also need to do the least of "bad-mouthing" against others, dealers included

Thanks to sites like this, people are getting more hip about what's going on out there and hopefully will be in a position to make a better decision for themselves in the end.

As they say, "bad story - good ending".....

Norbert

I think you have misunderstood me. My posting was not in defense of whoever it is that wrote those things on the website - it's abundantly clear from this thread that the person who wrote it is at best ill informed. However my point remains in that if someone honestly thinks less of their competition for what they think are very good reasons (regardless of the factual accuracy), then I feel that sharing this information with their customers is not at all offensive nor justified to be reduced to the label of sales tactic. For example, if someone now asks you for your opinion of this Steinway dealer, are you now obligated, by some code of chivalry, to not mention anything about the factual inaccuracies on their website?

Speaking of which, I can't imagine the existence of this very thread being good for said Steinway dealer's reputation, nor perhaps for Steinway itself.

I think one issue the dealer is trying to address is the question that a high-end non-playing client may ask: "If Steinway is the best, how come other pianos cost 50% more?"



I found this dealer's website when I was googling for a Florida Fazioli dealer and laughed out loud when I saw this! They may or may not be overpriced, but they're taken very seriously, of course. (As are Yamaha CF and S, Shigeru Kawai, Estonia, etc, and many other non-Steinway brands.)


For the person who wants to purchase 'the most expensive piano,' and there are customers like that, Steinway has nothing to offer them! This is a bad reason to design a product, of course, but it seems this dealer put this statement there to foster some Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt in the minds of this class of customer. I think he can come up with better arguments. This one is comical in its futility.

Thrill,

Fazioli and Bosendorfer may cost 50% more on paper but in reality discounts are steep. A few years ago in the bay area the Fazioli dealer would spot you 20% off if you just brushed by the piano and another 10% if they said you were a piano teacher. The Bosendorfer dealer at the time 30% or 40% discount was not unheard of. He sold a lot of pianos. So basically, even with the lopsided euro and transportation factored in, if you were looking at a B they could either match the price on their seven footers or get within spitting distance . . .

As far as this particular website I see nothing remarkable as far as bad mouthing or lying, kind of muted compared to what goes on around here. Still, there’s plenty on the website to [censored] off anyone who isn’t in love with Steinway. The way Mason and Hamlin and Charles Walter are dismissed likely stings, “Our domestic piano industry, except for Steinway has practically vanished. A few boutique builders still exist, but rely on other suppliers for critical parts and processes.”

But when gets right down to it, whether you hate them or not, Steinway has attained a singularity, both in its dominance of the concert stage and the array of Steinway clones manufactured over the years, both new pianos from other makers and rebuilt Steinways, depending on whether you’re trading on the sound or the Steinway name.

Even Bosendorfer has jumped on the Steinway gravy train (such as it is) to some extent. The last few I played seemed to be emulating the Steinway sound as far as projection and tonal color. Kinda sad in a way. You got to ask yourself, Why waste money on a fake Steinway when the real thing is a little cheaper?

Mike

Mike,

Do you have other examples in print on dealers' web pages that makes this one look tame and mild? We could always throw some rocks at a few more dealers if their brand trashing is of the same ilk.

The examples I'm aware of came from low end peddlers who preyed on penny pinche .... ah, the price conscious. The late and unlamented (and bankrupt) piano superstore comes to mind.

But I would be interested to see the many examples of web puffery out there that allow you to call this one tame in comparison to "what goes on." Most of the examples I have seen are puffery for the brands carried, not transparently false attacks on the competition.

The one "higher end" firm I'm aware of that put out nonsense was Petrof, with their rather absurd pursuit of CAFIM standards. But that was at a higher level of decision making than the dealership that meets individual customers.

In addition, this fellow in Florida represents a larger corporation that might find these web shenanigans unhelpful to the larger corporate image.

The B isn't 7'. It's 6'11". For a 7' Steinway, you'd need a Hamburg C.

Certainly Steinway and Bösendorfer both make some excellent pianos. But they are designed differently and sound very different. There are pianos, like the Yamaha S--a very nice piano--that probably are meant to capture Steinways tonal design. But not Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Fazioli, Blunther, etc.,

But the statement that amused me was that nobody takes these high end pianos "seriously". That's simply hogwash.

No Bosendorfer dealer interested in staying in business can match the price of a new B with the equivalent Bosendorfer at regular wholesale. Why? The Bosendorfers take longer to make and use more expensive materials! If I wanted to continue in the style of the referenced Steinway dealer I'd say it's soundboard quality spruce in the rim compared to plywood!

A lot of us are offended by the tone and content of the website quoted at the beginning of this thread. If you have equivalent examples, please share them.

To say new Bosendorfers sound like Steinways means you need to spend more time playing new Bosendorfers.

Mike Carr, How much turkey have you been eating?

.

Hey PD,

I wasn’t talking about more severe examples on websites but thinking that this dealer in regard to badmouthing, purposeful midleading, and rough-shod marketing comes off as Mary Poppins compared to some of the piano world dealers like Mr. Bamboozle, Mr. Flim Flam, and Mr. Steprightup.

I also don’t understand horse collaring and imposing the ridiculously small minded piano world ethic on some dealer who doesn’t even post here. Because he doesn’t show the proper respect to Bosendorfer and Fazioli? Come on, that’s just silly. It’s not only self-indulgent, it’s stalking.

Boseric,

Getting a brand new 7 foot Bosendorfer for less than a brand new B without the dealer going out of business happens often enough. Think deep discount.

Also, I didn’t say Bosendorfer sounded like Steinway. I said they are trying to sound like Steinway. Big difference. They’re still Bosendorfers, unfortunately, but their emphasis on the American sound has been common knowledge for the past few years, especially the seven foot models. Didn’t you get the memo?

“The rush to sell to Americans has caused some European companies to reconsider the tonal designs of their instruments and to redesign them for better sound projection, tonal color, and sustain — that is, to sound more like American Steinways. Considering that some of these companies are five or six generations old and have redesigned their pianos about that many times in 150 years, this degree of activity is unusual.”

Mike